Split From Other Topic. Track Day Discussion

[R DIRTY 3]

I've been driving my mum's 2000 model Mazda 323 Protege around fornthe past week while she's in England and it's a real eye opener! You tap the brakes you lock up, you turn a corner and you understeer, you accelorate and the 1.6L engine does sweet fa... But then youndobt realise that youre speeding.

1. You are in serious need of driver training...and very quickly.

2. You should be no where near a HPV if this is the trouble (locking brakes and understeering) your having with a Mazda 323.

Your statement indicates a complete lack of driving responsibility, care and the ability to drive a car to the conditions on the road and your own vehicles limits. Just my opinion

Hope the guy is ok!!!!

[Ashy Larry]

There is no comparative connection in Rhys comments,

I think Bard ha a valid point.

No vehicle is safer than the other.....

I got asked on my advanced drivers course in Sydney run by 1 x Mr Luff a simple question.

Whilst holding up a picture of a BMW 5 series, Mr Luff asked if this particular car was an understeering or an oversteering vehicle.

We were all wrong.

There is only one variable in all motor vehicles....

And that is the Human Operator.

It is because of the above variable that accidents happen 90% of the time.

Forget comparing cars,

Compare drivers.

Need we have to think back to Emille Dousset back in Sydney,

He took his Dad's GTR (EVLR34) out one night,

Car ended up in 3 pieces with three dead.

Yet in the years that Mr Dousset had the car, there was never an accident.

Operator error is the clear point.

[Ashy Larry]

WASCCC and No Limits as well as Collie and Kwinana seem to be more than enough places to vent and let loose in your car.

Cheaper than a speeding fine!

And in a safe environment.

Once you start tracking, then you can whinge that we do not have enough tracks..

But there are more than enough locations currently for someone to get whatever they have in their system out.

[Ashy Larry]

Before this thread goes completely off the rails,

I will just throw something out there...

In response to Nic's post.

Your comments Nic

"I think we're being as bad as police here. Assuming he was being an idiot, because it was a Skyline.

Remember, innocent until proven guilty.

I've left some rubber on the kerbs on wet days where I've looked away from a straight road for "two seconds", and no, not in any HPVs"

Ieatpelicans first hand overview of the accident site

"just went and had a look at the crash scene. you can see the rubber and subsequent chalk marks by the coppers on the median strip. Then, skid marks across the road, then nothing, then about 15 meters away, there are three impact points about ranging from a metre to 3 metres above the ground in three pine trees"

At what point did the car take control away from the driver?

Or for a better question,

At what point did the driver lose control of the vehicle?

Gulity or Innocent,

This comes back to Driver input and not car design as per Rhys's argument

Nic's Comments

"Motorplex launch a drag every 60 seconds, but look at how many cars rock up most nights, you don't exactly get alot of runs.

Barbagallo puts alot of people off entering drift practice because of its fees, and need of a CAMS license, as well as the other shit you need just to go for a quick slide. Yeah, safety is a first, but there's no denying, all those costs add up, and unless you have a decent income, its out of the picture. By the time you drive to Collie, you're already down, you still need to be nice to your pig, unless you want to fork out more cash and time to have it towed all the way back to Perth.

Im also completely against driving like a wanker on public roads, especially in city limits, but at the end of the day, knowing how much easier it is to drop 2nd into a corner or drag a car off a green light, its tempting not to, rather than put in the effort to do it legally."

I fail to see how a $65 - $80 Cams Licence for 12 months and $135 for a No Limits event is even close to

a) Killing Someone b) a $500 Fine and no car for 7 Days c) a Criminal Conviction against your name for the rest of your life, not to mention the guilt of having killed someone for a drag at a green light.

If you believe that 4 - 5 Runs at Kwinana is not enough for you per week due to the numbers,

Head back the following week, it still turns out cheaper than a fine or the other two points above.

It takes me 40- 50 Minutes to get to Bar-bag-ello but I see it as a small price to pay, to go hard in a safe controlled environment for 5 hours.

This conversation will always turn into an argument, as people are entitled to their own opinion.

However at no point can you honestly say that a burn out, or a drag off at a green light is worth Killing or Injuring someone due to the costs of

track fee's or licences or the amount of cars at Kwinana on a Wednesday Night.

The thought process of "It will never happen to me" as well as the over confidence in some drivers abilities will always lead to the events at the top of this page.

Yes I believe the hoon laws and the over policing in WA is dubious at best,

But for god sake people, it is a privilege to drive a car not a right.

You are driving a 1400KG Plus Missile.

Act the goat and you will wear the wrath..... Simple

Stump up the small amount of coin to enter a complex designed with motorsport / drift or drag in mind and get it off the streets.

[Nic_A31]

I wasnt trying to justify any kind of wrong-doing guys, I was saying that people forget the risk.

On a wet day in a RWD car, the driver is more likely to priorities 2.5 seconds of fun out of the corner, than the risk of killing someone. I've seen enough people I've known personally, killed by exactly that. It's f**ked up.

Like you said, a driver should always be in complete control of the vehicle.

I was under the impression Barbs was more like $220+ membership + $65 entry per night + $80 CAMS, on top of transport and running costs, only be to completely annihilated by professionals funded by higher paying jobs and years of experience.

I'll stop arguing my point because it seems you guys dont read the whole thing before responding, plus I'm with you on the fact that this event was f**ked up, and a reminder that driver's should invest just as much money into brakes, steering and suspension as they do into their dyno figures and tyres.

[racegtst]

Barbagallo puts alot of people off entering drift practice because of its fees, and need of a CAMS license, as well as the other shit you need just to go for a quick slide. Yeah, safety is a first, but there's no denying, all those costs add up, and unless you have a decent income, its out of the picture. By the time you drive to Collie, you're already down, you still need to be nice to your pig, unless you want to fork out more cash and time to have it towed all the way back to Perth.

Buy an Excell and pis off.

There's a lot of things that I'd like to do that are out of reach of my income level, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to jeopardise the safety of my passengers, pedestrians, or other motorists to use the streets as my own personal raceway to be able to do what I want.

If you can't afford it, stiff shit, deal with it. Lives are not worth the risk and the sooner people learn this the better.

Ask anyone who's killed someone through this type of stupidity and see if they'll do it again. If you don't know the answer to that, you're beyond help and more than likely part of the problem.

+1

I was under the impression Barbs was more like $220+ membership + $65 entry per night + $80 CAMS, on top of transport and running costs, only be to completely annihilated by professionals funded by higher paying jobs and years of experience.

I'll stop arguing my point because it seems you guys dont read the whole thing before responding, plus I'm with you on the fact that this event was f**ked up, and a reminder that driver's should invest just as much money into brakes, steering and suspension as they do into their dyno figures and tyres.

Like i said, if you can't afford it, buy an excell and piss off, either deal with it. The cost for safety is the cost. The cost of fun is the cost either way. i know what i would rather pay.

I have not been to the track since the Dec 08 sprint due to money and that is the way it has to be. End of story.

i hardly drive my car due to being too scared of being pinged by police or just the stigma of the whole media hype. This is a sad state of affairs when it comes to this but hey, thats life.

[Ashy Larry]

1.

Like you said, a driver should always be in complete control of the vehicle.

I was under the impression Barbs was more like $220+ membership + $65 entry per night + $80 CAMS, on top of transport and running costs, only be to completely annihilated by professionals funded by higher paying jobs and years of experience.

2.

and a reminder that driver's should invest just as much money into brakes, steering and suspension as they do into their dyno figures and tyres.

1.

Your impression has kept you off the track, as well as how many others ?

2.

It has nothing to do with any of those points you have listed.

Drivers Mentality needs to have money spent on it!

Like I said before,

It is the Human Factor that takes a car from in control to out of control!!!!

[Nic_A31]

1.

Your impression has kept you off the track, as well as how many others ?

Exactly my point. Thank you.

You never took risks when you were younger huh? Not even the occasional skid?

[Ashy Larry]

Nope!

Been driving since I was 9 on the farm,

Dad got me into Dirt bike racing and then Go Karts.

I have never needed to skid or race on the road....

Now have CAMs Licence

and hit Bar Bag Ello whenever I am home.

[Nic_A31]

Nope!

Been driving since I was 9 on the farm,

Dad got me into Dirt bike racing and then Go Karts.

I have never needed to skid or race on the road....

I am but no means a saint, I have been caught by a multinova doing 6 - 10 over on the way up from Bunno.

However,

I am secure in myself that I dont need to act the goat on the road.

Then you're a rare breed. Dirt bike racing and go karts - so you managed to get your racing stage out of your system rather quickly, maybe even before you got your license?

Just as biased for you to preach your morales based on your own experiences as it is for me to.

This guy took a risk, and fumbled it. If he'd taken the same risk alone, without another car in sight, what'd everyone have to say then?

This guy was just a regular Skyline driver.

[Ashy Larry]

This guy took a risk, and fumbled it. If he'd taken the same risk alone, without another car in sight, what'd everyone have to say then?

This guy was just a regular Skyline driver.

The same thing the police would be saying to his parents,

Sir /Ma'am,

Constable X from WA Police,

I have some news that I need to pass on regarding your son X,

Unfortunately an accident has occurred and your son X is deceased after colliding with a tree.

Speed and a lack of thought have contributed to his death.

I am sorry for your loss.

I am by no way being biased to you Nic,

All I am stating is that we have 9 million and one threads on these forums about Hoon Laws and Police and Accidents,

2 out of the 3 above would not happen if the people involved were presenting to an a appropriate location, be it Drift, Drag or Track.

It is a shame that an accident has occurred,

But what started this all was a comparative about safe cars and non safe cars.

I like Brad have got the view that driver error is the major factor in 90% of prangs.

Hence, driver training and track , drift and drag events help out in this, by getting people off the roads and into a safe environment

And trying and to change the mindset

[ecentrix]

They are some good points Mike. We have to remember the whole reason the hoon laws are here today is for people taking risks in the first place in HPV (or any vehicle for that matter) with possibility of injury.

I am keen to get involved with Barbs etc, and i think its vital to do a drivers course no matter how old you are/experienced or amazing you think you are (though people that think they are amazing are the same ones that are ruining it for us real enthusiasts) and its a small price to pay to be able to have your "time and place" however crowded it may be.

It seems the trend with younger people such as myself is that they NEED to take risks and prioritise having their back end out around a corner to enjoy themselves, and giving them opportunities/facilities such as barbs etc is a great privilege but we need more community awareness of cost and where to start. Its almost programmed into teenage minds to test the limits.

I certainly wish i had the opportunity to race around when i was younger.

[GTS-t VSPEC]

First let me say that I wish the people involved in this accident a speedy recovery. At fault or not, I'm sure we all wish them well.

Secondly, whilst this is a very sad event, let's all use it as a reminder that our behaviour on the roads can have a severe impact on our lives, and the lives of others. Let's use this reminder to take a postive step in reducing such events in the future by a) attending a driver training course b) getting involved in motorsport (AHG, Motorplex, Wanneroo etc). SAUWA actively encourage all it's members to participate in driver training and/or motorsport, and hopefully we're making a small difference in making some of you better drivers.

If you wish to get involved in either driver training, or some form of motorsport then feel free to contact me, and I'll point you in the right direction. And hopefully together we can help reduce these sort of accidents.

Cheers

Paul

SAUWA President

[R DIRTY 3]

I like Brad have got the view that driver error is the major factor in 90% of prangs.

This was exactly my point and having NA Goodness say what he said was an absolute text book example.

Im not the best driver in the world however i have many competitive events worth of experience. AHG AUtotest and sprint rounds, drag racing, Classic Challenge, Dutton Rally, AEM speeddome, and have no idea how many laps at wanneroo driving various cars from lame to fairly wild. Yes it costs to get this experience but its such a small fee in comparison to what we spend on our cars. (Couple of grand for wheels, couple of grand for body kits etc etc). Instead of buying the guages and the pillar pod which looks really cool but you dont actually need, spend that money towards getting some track time.....if nothing else, you will learn very quickly where your vehicle limits are, where the driver limits are, and you will have a new respect for your machine.

Just my 2 cents.

As Paul said, if you want to get into motorsport contact him, or myself if you like as we are always happy to help people out getting in to this!!!

[Dsturbd]

Nope!

Been driving since I was 9 on the farm,

Dad got me into Dirt bike racing and then Go Karts.

I have never needed to skid or race on the road....

Now have CAMs Licence

and hit Bar Bag Ello n witchs hats whenever I am home.

Same , prefer to do it all on track

9th August is collie track day come and play

Edited July 20, 2009 by Dsturbd

[djr81]

In which case, their is no such time, nor such place on a public road. Period.

In the same manner as there being no time & place on a public road there is no reason to link such unfortunate occurances to motor sport or motor sport facilities. At all.

[NISMOGTT]

i agree with all the talk about getting it on the track... i myself wish to do the same thing... however i wish we would take a leaf out of other country's books and allow a simplton without a CAMS or any ongoing fees to simply rock up to the track pay my fee race around and go home... i know they do this in europe, england and the states as i have done it in rent-a-cars not cause they were cool but simply cause i could...

i think a lot of people are put off cause of getting the CAMS and fee, i agree these fees are much less then a life but i know it could be even less if the governement would take some small steps to help out... simple fact is that most of these idiotic accidents happen at night cause that is when you just finished hanging out with the boys and have some testosterone pumping and want it out of your system 2 ways of doing this is go home wake the mrs or put your foot down, unfortunately put the foot down is the first response and we have no safe late night areas to do so....

pleas guys think for 10 seconds about what you are about to do is it worth it... you will always answer no.

first leason i was ever taught was by a police instructor.....

"your only as good as the person next to you and the road you can see"....

Edited July 20, 2009 by NISMOGTT

[djr81]

i agree with all the talk about getting it on the track... i myself wish to do the same thing... however i wish we would take a leaf out of other country's books and allow a simplton without a CAMS or any ongoing fees to simply rock up to the track pay my fee race around and go home... i know they do this in europe, england and the states as i have done it in rent-a-cars not cause they were cool but simply cause i could...

i think a lot of people are put off cause of getting the CAMS and fee, i agree these fees are much less then a life but i know it could be even less if the governement would take some small steps to help out... simple fact is that most of these idiotic accidents happen at night cause that is when you just finished hanging out with the boys and have some testosterone pumping and want it out of your system 2 ways of doing this is go home wake the mrs or put your foot down, unfortunately put the foot down is the first response and we have no safe late night areas to do so....

pleas guys think for 10 seconds about what you are about to do is it worth it... you will always answer no.

first leason i was ever taught was by a police instructor.....

"your only as good as the person next to you and the road you can see"....

Getting a Cams licence is not at all difficult.

You need a car club licence (pick one they are cheap) & then send CAMS a cheque for less than a hundred dollars with their form. If you want one for a day you can organise that too.

Simply put the threshold for money/forms/competence for doing a track day with a club is so low that there is no reasonable excuse - none at all - to do something stupid instead.

It is not the money, it is not the skill level required, it is not the time required.

It is simply that people cannot be bothered doing something they incorrectly perceive as being too hard.

That being the case there is no reason to link motor sport to anything that happens on the roads.

There are countless numbers of resourceful, competent and dedicated people who work tirelessly to organise & participate in motorsport all around the country. The more people try & link tragic accidents like this to the sport the harder their job becomes.

So stop it.

If you want something to do go down the park & kick a football. It works just as well in stopping people from having accidents in their cars.

Oh and one last thing. It is government money that has, to a large degree, allowed the expansion of the Collie motorplex & that will allow for further expansion in the future. It is also government money that hopefully will allow Wanneroo to expand. So just think before you tip a bucket of sh!t onto the pollies for doing nothing.

Edited July 20, 2009 by djr81

[R DIRTY 3]

Getting a Cams licence is not at all difficult.

It is simply that people cannot be bothered doing something they incorrectly perceive as being too hard.

Very well said!

To organise a cams license would take you less than 1 hour of your time, a few emails etc etc.

How long do you spend searching the internet world wide to get the best possible price on a gearstick knob you really want? (thats an example only) A couple of hours? For harder parts, a week or 2 if need be?

[NISMOGTT]

Sorry i think you missed what i said...

i was not saying it is hard and i got one myself... i was just saying that in other country's they have realised the attitude you have said... too hard and people cant be bothered... so they made a change to allow anyone to go to a track whenever they feel like without a CAMS, i was saying that yes there are avenues and i agree with them but we need to remember that not everyone want to be part of a group or forum but still like to get out once and a while and they cannot... some avenues are great for some but not others...

I agree with Brad it is only an hour but what happens if you live in a small counrty town and visit the big sticks and just want a race around?? there is no option unless you plan weeks ahead of time make sure there is a track event and then plan your holiday around it... i agree that is an extreme case but so are a lot of these accidents....