Rear Traction Arms

[_Ryan_]

hey all

Gary reccomended I get some to correct geometry changes made by lowering the car and adding aftermarket rear camber adjustment, so far i have found the JJR product for 199 and the ISC for 179, is there any difference, and any reccomendations?

Is there an arm i could get that is bushed instead of having spherical bearings?

-Ryan

[frankiman]

what you are looking for are Rear Upper Control Arm (RUCAs) not tractions links, which are for toe ajustment

most aftermarket ajustable arms have spherical bearings, which is already an upgrade from rubber/poly bushings

just make sure to buy quality parts, since chinese bearings will wear out incrediblely fast

[_Ryan_]

what you are looking for are Rear Upper Control Arm (RUCAs) not tractions links, which are for toe ajustment

most aftermarket ajustable arms have spherical bearings, which is already an upgrade from rubber/poly bushings

just make sure to buy quality parts, since chinese bearings will wear out incrediblely fast

I have camber arms, toe arms are on the list, I was told by a respected suspension engineeer that traction arms would help correct the geo of a modified car.

I prefer to replace poly bushes than bearings.

Thanks for your input.

[hrd-hr30]

yes traction arms aka radius arms. Whiteline do a poly bushed adjustable radius arm. I think I paid about $250 for my S13 through Pedders.

traction links are not for toe adjustment. they're to correct bump steer - toe change through suspension travel.

toe is adjusted/set with the rear toe links or hicas steering arms.

Edited July 30, 2009 by hrd-hr30

[JMW]

Radius rods are actually in the front, sometimes known as castor rods. Traction arms, as made by Cusco or others actually go in the rear.

The are put in to counteract the toe in you get when lowering a car, you can dial a little out with the upper adjustable arms though. But the adjustable traction rods will be able to dial out all of the toe in, thus affecting understeer and over steer. If a suspension engineer has recommended them i'd get them, also got them on my shopping list too!

[hrd-hr30]

Radius rods are actually in the front, sometimes known as castor rods. Traction arms, as made by Cusco or others actually go in the rear.

The are put in to counteract the toe in you get when lowering a car, you can dial a little out with the upper adjustable arms though. But the adjustable traction rods will be able to dial out all of the toe in, thus affecting understeer and over steer. If a suspension engineer has recommended them i'd get them, also got them on my shopping list too!

they're called radius rods because of the function they perform, not wheter they are in the front suspension or rear suspension.

The Japs typically call them traction rods, Australian manufacturers call them radius rods. He wants a bushed adjustable arm, so whiteline is the go. They list it in their catalogues as"Arm-adj uppr radius-camber/toe". If you go to them asking for a traction rod, chances are they won't know what you are talking about.

they are to correct bump steer (toe change during suspension movement) after fitting camber adjustment to the main upper camber arm. Not for adjusting toe. If you have also lowered your car in addition to altering camber, you will need these to get rid of that bump steer induced toe change.

Edited July 31, 2009 by hrd-hr30

[_Ryan_]

they're called radius rods because of the function they perform, not wheter they are in the front suspension or rear suspension.

The Japs typically call them traction rods, Australian manufacturers call them radius rods. He wants a bushed adjustable arm, so whiteline is the go. They list it in their catalogues as"Arm-adj uppr radius-camber/toe". If you go to them asking for a traction rod, chances are they won't know what you are talking about.

they are to correct bump steer (toe change during suspension movement) after fitting camber adjustment to the main upper camber arm. Not for adjusting toe. If you have also lowered your car in addition to altering camber, you will need these to get rid of that bump steer induced toe change.

Correct, thanks mate.

Between you and Gary, I am saved haha

[_Ryan_]

http://www.whiteline.com.au/product_detail...t_number=KTA117

[nisskid]

as mentioned they do correct geometry, but only buy them if u expect to use them. most people buy them, set them, then leave them. they need to be setup with ur camber arms to create the lowest amount of dynamic toe changes throughout the suspensions arc, well bump steer.

basically cheap generic shit is shit. low quality bearings and poor designs. will wear quickly as well as break a lot easier.

this is really the one part you dont wanna be skimping out on.

there's a dude who's making quality gear here in Aus, for f**k all $$, ive sent him a link of the thread so he can give u some more details.

[_Ryan_]

as mentioned they do correct geometry, but only buy them if u expect to use them. most people buy them, set them, then leave them. they need to be setup with ur camber arms to create the lowest amount of dynamic toe changes throughout the suspensions arc, well bump steer.

basically cheap generic shit is shit. low quality bearings and poor designs. will wear quickly as well as break a lot easier.

this is really the one part you dont wanna be skimping out on.

there's a dude who's making quality gear here in Aus, for f**k all $$, ive sent him a link of the thread so he can give u some more details.

thanks, i am looking at getting the geo setup on this car before DECA so i have it in the right place to work from(before i start putting some hours on it), at the moment it is bumpsteery etc.

[Beer Baron]

on my GTR track car I use an ikeya formula rear traction rod/radius rod. on the silvia I have those whiteline ones. they are actually pretty good. that particular arm doesn't transmit much vibration anyway I didn't notice any different changing from a bushed arm to spherical bearing, but if you want to keep as many bushes in the car as possible then by all means go the whiteline one. it does the job well and the price is quite fair.

[cazman]

I'll chuck up a picture when I have a spare moment today.

I sell some Australian made items, but they do use a rose joint.

If your after a Bushed or Urethane version the whiteline ones the ones for you.

I am not a fan of the whiteline items as the use a welded U bracket and also the bush carrier is also welded. This also makes replacing any broken parts harder/dearer.

The sets that we design and sell are 100% designed from scratch, using engineering techniques borrowed from 5 diff brands of arms on the market.

They are made using only the best products, in common sizes so that if anything wears or fails, not only can I repair them for you, but replacement parts are available at most decent shops.

The rod end is a US made 4140 Chromeolly rod end, using a Teflon/PTFE liner. The have a breakaway torque of around 5 pound too, unlike a brand I wont name, that requires OVER 50 pounds just to rotate the ball joint.

These are not some cheap rose joint that we found in the bin, these are the real deal.

We supply all arms with dust boots already on them, you can opt to have no boots for $6 less also. (there are 2 schools of thought to boots, I wont go into it here, but its up to you)

The Turnbuckle is a 16mm 1018 low carbon steel left and right hand threaded item, zinc chromated, rather than powdercoated, this is so the threads are at least protected from rust.

The U bracket is a Cold formed bracket, and then drilled and machine to size. Rather than bending a flat bar in a U shape the steel is cold formed in the U for strength. They are also 5mm thick Blue scope steel.

The fastener is a 10.9 grade bolt (above an 8.8 even) using a Zinced jam nut. (MOST brands use a welded 8.8 rod onto the U bracket as this is cheap and allows for near infinite adjustment, this is the WEAKEST way to engineer a part. (I can go into this later if you like)

Edit: The misalignment spacer is also 304 stainless rather than a steel zinced item, as this item sees the most friction when istalling stainless was the only way to ensure no rust contaminates onto the Rose joint itself.

We run a very little margin and no marketing hence why we can make and sell these for $180 a pair. +$20 freight

We also do caster rods and rear toe arms, as well as numerous Supra items. We are constantly developing items also, and R&D is on going.

For the sake of comparison I can sell you a KTA117 for $226 pair +$22 freight also.

I will get my partner to drop me a pair at work now, and I will take a photograph for you.

Cheers Jude

Edited July 31, 2009 by cazman

[_Ryan_]

I'll chuck up a picture when I have a spare moment today.

I sell some Australian made items, but they do use a rose joint.

If your after a Bushed or Urethane version the whiteline ones the ones for you.

I am not a fan of the whiteline items as the use a welded U bracket and also the bush carrier is also welded. This also makes replacing any broken parts harder/dearer.

The sets that we design and sell are 100% designed from scratch, using engineering techniques borrowed from 5 diff brands of arms on the market.

They are made using only the best products, in common sizes so that if anything wears or fails, not only can I repair them for you, but replacement parts are available at most decent shops.

The rod end is a US made 4140 Chromeolly rod end, using a Teflon/PTFE liner. The have a breakaway torque of around 5 pound too, unlike a brand I wont name, that requires OVER 50 pounds just to rotate the ball joint.

These are not some cheap rose joint that we found in the bin, these are the real deal.

We supply all arms with dust boots already on them, you can opt to have no boots for $6 less also. (there are 2 schools of thought to boots, I wont go into it here, but its up to you)

The Turnbuckle is a 16mm 1018 low carbon steel left and right hand threaded item, zinc chromated, rather than powdercoated, this is so the threads are at least protected from rust.

The U bracket is a Cold formed bracket, and then drilled and machine to size. Rather than bending a flat bar in a U shape the steel is cold formed in the U for strength. They are also 5mm thick Blue scope steel.

The fastener is a 10.9 grade bolt (above an 8.8 even) using a Zinced jam nut. (MOST brands use a welded 8.8 rod onto the U bracket as this is cheap and allows for near infinite adjustment, this is the WEAKEST way to engineer a part. (I can go into this later if you like)

Edit: The misalignment spacer is also 304 stainless rather than a steel zinced item, as this item sees the most friction when istalling stainless was the only way to ensure no rust contaminates onto the Rose joint itself.

We run a very little margin and no marketing hence why we can make and sell these for $180 a pair. +$20 freight

We also do caster rods and rear toe arms, as well as numerous Supra items. We are constantly developing items also, and R&D is on going.

For the sake of comparison I can sell you a KTA117 for $226 pair +$22 freight also.

I will get my partner to drop me a pair at work now, and I will take a photograph for you.

Cheers Jude

Are the bearings replaceable at any decent and experienced(eg, they have done other custom arms for my old cars) shop?

And why wouldn't you use a dust boot?

I am interested... the whiteline stuff i dont pay RRP on, but if i can get something that is more well made I am willing to pay for the quality and support the smaller company and their R&D, aslong as i can get the bearings replaced.

[cazman]

Are the bearings replaceable at any decent and experienced(eg, they have done other custom arms for my old cars) shop?

And why wouldn't you use a dust boot?

I am interested... the whiteline stuff i dont pay RRP on, but if i can get something that is more well made I am willing to pay for the quality and support the smaller company and their R&D, aslong as i can get the bearings replaced.

They are extrememley replaceable.

We have fixed a few *insert name here* arms for costomers, andit works out dearer and still not as reliable as a set of new arms.

All our traction rods use a common sized 5/8 rod end, same with toe etc,

The caster rods use a 3/4 sizes rod end,

If a customers budget can stretch to using say a QA1 bearing, thats what Id recommend. If I use QA1 rod ends, it will escalate the price though. Hence I use another US brand PTFE rod end.

I can sell my arms minus rod ends if you like too.

They can be bought here for example, off the shelf in Australia, no waiting, no BS.

QA1-AML10ROD END (A) ENDURA ALUM M-L 5/8-5/8 RED$39.70

If you were to ring up CBC Bearing they can supply you with ANY 5/8 rod end to suit also. Make sure you know what your doing with rod ends before ordering though.

As for the no boot policy, the 2 schools of thought are:

1 is with a boot you trap water in there, as well as dirt, if it does get in there. My rod ends are stanless balled and chromeolly housings, so they arent prone to rust, but nothing lasts forever. The Though is that water getting trapped in there will accerate wear, as opposed to slowing it.

2 is that you dont need a boot. The bearing has such tight tolenences that dirt cant get into the liner itself, same with water, BUT stones, rocks, dirt can effectively "sandblast" the ball of the bearing, as therefore it will tear the liner anyway.

No one has done any wear testing. If anyone would like t be a guniee pig Im more than happy to do them a deal.

I have seen no adverse wear using dust boots, in our climate though.

Tein and cusco use boots as standard, but thats not a gauge.

All off road trucks use and exposed rod end, and like QA1 have said in response to this very question:

"Rose/heim joints are for race use, you must take into account the wear factor of using such parts"

I have seen cheaper chinese arms still hold up 2 years down the track even, but I can offer a warranty, and a discount, if after the warranty period expires your joints have play in them I can offer you replacment joints at a cheaper rate (say in 2 years time when youd like freshen up)

Sorry about the crappy photo, my partner just dropped some S/R series traction rods in for you to look at, I will break the part down for you in the next post.

[Sydneykid]

Just to make sure we have this covered, there are 3 links (each side) in the rear suspension of an R32/33/34;

1. Upper Control Arm, this mostly adjusts the camber, but it does change the static toe a small amount at the same time

2. Traction Rod, this mostly changes the dynamic toe (bump steer), but it does change the static toe and static camber by small amounts at the same time

3. Steering Arm, this changes the static toe (HICAS connected or disconnected)

You can't set the traction rod length by a simple, static wheel alignment. You have to remove the sping and shock units from the car and then move the suspension up and down through its range of travel and adjust the traction rod to minimise the bump steer. Since adjusting the length of the traction rod also changes the static camber and static toe, it becomes a circle of adjustments. It can take up to 3 hours to get the length of the 3 arms optimised so you get the desired static camber, static toe together with minimum bump steer. Then you do the same to the other side.

That's the problem with infinitely adjustable traction rods, they are cheap to buy but expensive to install correctly. Hence why I prefer the standard arms with bushes and eccentric crush tube adjustment. If you rotate the eccentric half a turn on the upper control arm to get the camber you want then you adjust the traction rod the same, half a turn. The eccentrics are the same offset so the relationship in length between the upper control arm and the traction rod remains the same as standard whenever you rotate them the same amount.

No matter how well made the upper control arm and the traction rod are, it will still cost you 3 or 4 times their cost to get them aligned. To make it even more compex, I have seen upper control arms and the traction rods with different thread pitches, even from the same manufacturer. That makes alignment a real nightmare where 1 turn on the upper control arm is the same as 1.25 turns on the traction rod.

Cheers

Gary

[_Ryan_]

Just to make sure we have this covered, there are 3 links (each side) in the rear suspension of an R32/33/34;

1. Upper Control Arm, this mostly adjusts the camber, but it does change the static toe a small amount at the same time

2. Traction Rod, this mostly changes the dynamic toe (bump steer), but it does change the static toe and static camber by small amounts at the same time

3. Steering Arm, this changes the static toe (HICAS connected or disconnected)

You can't set the traction rod length by a simple, static wheel alignment. You have to remove the sping and shock units from the car and then move the suspension up and down through its range of travel and adjust the traction rod to minimise the bump steer. Since adjusting the length of the traction rod also changes the static camber and static toe, it becomes a circle of adjustments. It can take up to 3 hours to get the length of the 3 arms optimised so you get the desired static camber, static toe together with minimum bump steer. Then you do the same to the other side.

That's the problem with infinitely adjustable traction rods, they are cheap to buy but expensive to install correctly. Hence why I prefer the standard arms with bushes and eccentric crush tube adjustment. If you rotate the eccentric half a turn on the upper control arm to get the camber you want then you adjust the traction rod the same, half a turn. The eccentrics are the same offset so the relationship in length between the upper control arm and the traction rod remains the same as standard whenever you rotate them the same amount.

No matter how well made the upper control arm and the traction rod are, it will still cost you 3 or 4 times their cost to get them aligned. To make it even more compex, I have seen upper control arms and the traction rods with different thread pitches, even from the same manufacturer. That makes alignment a real nightmare where 1 turn on the upper control arm is the same as 1.25 turns on the traction rod.

Cheers

Gary

I was recommended(By the man who I used to get the work done on my dattos by, who preps race/rally cars) given the quality of roads near my house and that whiteline should have decent welds and that the bush should effectively "cushion" the welds from damage that I am best off going this kit or similar: http://www.whiteline.com.au/product_detail...A117&page=1

But would it take ~3hours too set it up? if so it sounds like it should be one of the last things to be set up?

-Ryan

[Sydneykid]

But would it take ~3hours too set it up?

It depends on how experienced the person doing it is in correcting bump steer and whether or not they have a bump steer gauge. If they are inexperienced and trying to do it on wheel aligner then it may take even longer.

if so it sounds like it should be one of the last things to be set up?

Rear bump steer is a really big problem, it affects acceleration, braking and cornering. If you ignore it you will be chasing handling and power down problems with springs, shocks and static wheel alignment endlessly. And you will never cure the handling ills until you eliminate the bump steer. To give you some idea, we corrected the bump steer on the back of John P's 300ZX and next time out it was 1.5 seconds faster at Wakefiled. That's a car with big slicks, lots of grip and the rest of the suspension system was more than reasonable. The driver's first comment was it didn't feel like it was going to bight him every time he turned the steering wheel. That's how important it is.

Don't think it's just related to circuit cars either, I did a drag R33GTST a while back and it was 0.2 secs faster to 60' and 0.5 secs faster overall. with not one extra horsepower.

Cheers

Gary

[08r3308]

hey Gary would whiteline KTA117 kit be any good?

i would assume they are much better that cheaper ones with spherical on ends?

cheers

[Sydneykid]

hey Gary would whiteline KTA117 kit be any good?

i would assume they are much better that cheaper ones with spherical on ends?

cheers

I don't use them, I prefer the eccentric crush tube in the standard arms for the reasons I posted above. The KTA117 are a better solution for a road car than arms with spherical joints, but you probably won't like them that much if the wheel aligner gives you a bill for $700 for adjusting out the bump steer. Actually worse than that, would be getting a bill for $50 for a wheel alignment and then find you have huge bump steer problems and hence no traction for acceleration, braking or cornering. Which is worse, poor for lack of money or poor handling?

I guess I should point out that replacement bushes in the standard arms are legal and replacement arms aren't.

Cheers

Gary

[08r3308]

with bushes , are they adjustable on car?

does the wheel hub need to come off for installing bushes?