Rear Traction Arms

[mosoto]

They have no dust covers that I can see and they have no grease points. They look to have rudimentary plastic scraper which won't last one trip into a sand trap. In a decent sphercial bearing there is more than $US15 worth of steel, so I seriously doubt the quality claim as well.

Harsh? Maybe.....no not realy.

Cheers

Gary

http://www.splparts.com/main4/index.htm

They use QA1 Endura 2000 on all their assy's, which I assumed are good quality, Is this not the case? In fact all the materials they use "appear" to be good quality. (see link)

I guess it wouldn't be hard to add dust covers for that added protection but there seems to be some pro's & cons to that idea too!!!!

I questioned him about longevity + replacing bearings and he said he could do them for the cost stated when the time came, It could be user discount or they may be genuinly cheaper in the USA than here.

You are looking at it in reverse. The ADR's primary requirement is that every single part of the vehicle be as designed by and delivered from the manufacturer. You can't change anything unless there is a specific regulation allowing you to. Simply put, there is no ADR allowing you to change suspension arms, so they must be standard.

There is specific allowance for changing things, usually termed wear and tear items, such as brake pads, wiper blades, tyres, brake rotors, shock absorbers, globes etc. Included in that grouping are suspension bushes, which is why it is not an infringment of an ADR to replace non adjustable rubber bushes with adjustable polyurethane ones as long as the suspension arms themselves remain as standard

Ah right. So basically as stated before, no aftermarket replacement arms/rods are going to be street legal, even if they are better engineered!!!!!!

So how do guys on here get past vehicle inspection or even get insurance for a road registered vehicle??!!!

Moreso, why do Suspension shops even offer the parts when they know they are not legal to start with??!!!!

What about coilovers, are they technically illegal too?. I've got some Ohlins on the way

Edited September 10, 2009 by mosoto

[Sydneykid]

http://www.splparts.com/main4/index.htm

They use QA1 Endura 2000 on all their assy's, which I assumed are good quality, Is this not the case? In fact all the materials they use "appear" to be good quality. (see link)

I guess it wouldn't be hard to add dust covers for that added protection but there seems to be some pro's & cons to that idea too!!!!

I questioned him about longevity + replacing bearings and he said he could do them for the cost stated when the time came, It could be user discount or they may be genuinly cheaper in the USA than here.

I buy 100's of QA1's spherical bearings per year direct from the USA, so I have a pretty good idea what $US15 buys.

I also travel to the US every 2 or 3 years to the major car shows, especially SEMA, so I see the latest and greatest products first hand.

Over the years I have used 1000‘s of spherical bearings in race cars, so I have nothing against them. Only that they be used in the appropriate application and a road car is not an appropriate application, especially considering our local roads and conditions.

Ah right. So basically as stated before, no aftermarket replacement arms/rods are going to be street legal, even if they are better engineered!!!!!!

The fact is they aren't "better engineered", they haven't undergone the rigorous testing that a car manufacturuer applies and they aren't covered by the same warranties and conditions.

So how do guys on here get past vehicle inspection or even get insurance for a road registered vehicle??!!!

Normal rego inspection often doesn't include checking suspension arms, when it does they fail.

Moreso, why do Suspension shops even offer the parts when they know they are not legal to start with??!!!!

Decent suspension workshops don't. Based on my experience 99.9% of aftermarket suspension arms are sold by counter jockeys in parts importers who have no idea about suspension or they are bought off an internet reseller, Ebay etc.

What about coilovers, are they technically illegal too?. I've got some Yamahas (corrected for accuracy) on the way

If they are externally adjustable for height, then yes they are specifically illegal in each state as well as being ADR illegal for Australia.

Cheers

Gary

[mosoto]

What about coilovers, are they technically illegal too?. I've got some Ohlins made by Carrozzeria on the way

If they are externally adjustable for height, then yes they are specifically illegal in each state as well as being ADR illegal for Australia.

Yes Yamaha are affiliated with Ohlins Europe, but I believe the DFV I've ordered are made in Japan, Correct me if i'm wrong!!

So seriously though, can we not use the NCOP11 rulings to have suspension modifications certified by an engineer and therefore street legal?

The DFV Coilovers I've ordered are specifically for the V35 (OEM rear suspension config) and are height adjustable without effecting spring length,

Surely this has got to be a better option than lowering springs and shortened shocks as it retains full suspension travel, within the limits of clearances of course!!!

What I've read about the V35 is camber from even a 1" drop can not always be corrected with the stock suspension, so I don't want to prematurely wear out my Yokohama V103 or have the car looking like a VW just because I want to lower the C of G .

So all in all, how do we "improve" handling, response & feedback for the track with a stock suspension AND keep the car street legal to drive daily?

Signed

Des Pondent.

Edited September 11, 2009 by mosoto

[Sydneykid]

Yes Yamaha are affiliated with Ohlins Europe, but I believe the DFV I've ordered are made in Japan, Correct me if i'm wrong!!

Not quite, some years ago Yamaha bought Ohlins (a Swedish company BTW) for their motorcycle racing shock absorber technology. We use real Ohlins what we call "Swedish Ohlins" in the V8 SuperCars and cars in a number of other race categories, have been for a number of years. They are mid race shock price range at $4-5K per corner but very effective, wider operating window than Penskes and cheaper than Sach/Boges, so good value for money. Not quite as good in the value for money stakes as MCA's (nee Proflex) at $2-3K per corner.

Since the acquisition Yamaha have been using the Ohlins name on the high end shocks made in the Yamaha factory in Japan, what we call "Japanese Ohlins". They are in no way comparable to the Swedish Ohlins, no parts are interchangeable, the valving system and piston are a completely different design. The Australian Ohlins agent would never touch touch "Japanaese Ohlins", wouldn't service them and didn't carry any spare parts.

Don't get me wrong, there are far worse shocks around, sure they are not technically brilliant, but that's not the problem. The real issue is they are 100% designed for Japanese roads and Japanese buyer expectations. They are excessively harsh, their high frequency valving is not suited to our course gravel road base and they often come with spring rates that are beyond what we use in race cars.

So seriously though, can we not use the NCOP11 rulings to have suspension modifications certified by an engineer and therefore street legal?

You can have pretty much anything certified, all you need is money. Each car has to be engineered itself and I would estimate $800 to $1500 per suspension arm for testing and then sign off. That would still leave the issues of dust prevention and greasing.

The DFV Coilovers I've ordered are specifically for the V35 (OEM rear suspension config) and are height adjustable without effecting spring length,

That's pretty tricky since the V35 doesn't have coil overs in the rear, the springs are a separate mounting from the shocks.

Surely this has got to be a better option than lowering springs and shortened shocks as it retains full suspension travel, within the limits of clearances of course!!!

That's not the problem, the issue is you can change the height anytime you like, that's what is illegal. Think about it, you get defected for too low, go home, wind up the height, get the defect lifted, go home and lower it back again. The record as far as I know it is 8 times, for one guy in NSW. That's why it's specifically illegal, nothing to do with quality.

What I've read about the V35 is camber from even a 1" drop can not always be corrected with the stock suspension, so I don't want to prematurely wear out my Yokohama V103 or have the car looking like a VW just because I want to lower the C of G .

But what about the roll centre? What are doing about that? Lowering a V35 30 mm lowers the roll centre 43 mm, hence increases the roll couple by 13 mm. So you actually get more roll after you lower it.

So all in all, how do we "improve" handling, response & feedback for the track with a stock suspension AND keep the car street legal to drive daily?

Do it properly. First thing is upgraded swaybars, the undisputed best value for money suspension upgrade there is. They are 100% legal. Next is changing the static alignment, they need more caster and front tow out for a starter. That's 100% legal. Then swap out the soft rubber bushes with polyurethane to maintain the dynamic geometry. Yep that's 100% legal too. The standard spring rates are not too bad, if you'd like to retain the current level of ride comfort. Then a set of Bilstein shocks, they will improve the handling another step, control the additional anti roll rate from the upgraded swaybars without diminishing the ride comfort unduly. Also 100% legal. Why Bilsteins? Well Nissan have used Bilstein as a partner many of their high end applications for many years, and they did choose them for the R35GTR and then went back to Bilstein again for the R35GTR V Spec dampers. Maybe they know just a little about Nissan suspension systems and world wide conditions.

Not very glamorous though is it, not a lot of shiny stuff to show your mates, or a trendy low ride height to look at. Just good handling, some semblance of ride comfort and no defect opportunity. From there it depends on how serious you are about the track work. For example, if you are going to swap to R type tyres for the track days then an increase in spring rate maybe justified. But every step in that direction takes it further away from comfortable daily driving.

Cheers

Gary

[mosoto]

Thanks Gary.

I've done a fair bit of research on my choices and I'm led to believe the Japanese DFV Ohlins are not the harsh ride expected from most Jap units. I chose them because they are regarded as an excellent unit for street & track and a much better choice than say Tein, HKS, Cusco & Bilstein. The US has some pretty harsh road surfaces and the Ohlins are considered a good choice there, so surely they can't be so mismatched to our surfaces. This was the start but not the end of my search here:

http://g35driver.com/forums/brakes-suspens...-w-updates.html

The spring rates like any good quality unit, match the damper and from what I can accertain, are better than stock ride comfort on soft settings. The valving is apparently much better and more accurate than the Bilstein PSS9/10 which was another choice that has the OEM rear setup (separate shock & spring). As I said, made specifically for the V35/350Z OEM rear so maybe not so tricky

Then again, If your info/advice is based on 1st hand experience with the DFV then all the research in the world is moot.

I could have gone Koni/Eibach but I was told the ride will be more harsh than stock (for daily) so moved away from that idea.

I'm only looking at approx 1" drop, maybe a little more on the front. Not looking at "adjusting" height any more than that and getting a yellow, I'm 43, My back can't handle a sled daily

I didn't want them for bling or constant height change, just to acheive quality ride at a set ride height.

With roll centre I found these? http://www.z1auto.com/prodmore.asp?model=3...amp;prodid=3417

I've got Hotchkis sways ordered too, apparently the best mod for the V35/G35 is stiffer sways so at least I'm on the right track there (no pun intended)!!!!

The spare 18's I've got will get race rubber, I don't intend to run my street tyres/rims on the track as they're 20".

So as you can see, I want the best of both worlds. If it can not be acheived then I will have to accept that and not track the car.

Edited September 12, 2009 by mosoto

[mosoto]

My apologies to the OP, I've taken this a little OT.

Mods feel free to move my discussion with Gary (Sydneykid) to "Aftermarket suspension mods" in the V35 section if you deem it necessary.

[msports180]

Wow awesome thread lots of valuable info, plans for sus mods for my 34 has now completely changed.

Thanks guys.

[_Ryan_]

BTW, raised my car, handles heaps better, will be going with the Whilteine/Noltec adjustable bushes once I sell the stagea.(few unexpected costs have come up lately, including a trip to NZ, so no more mods til I sell the spare car.)

[cazman]

They have no dust covers that I can see and they have no grease points. They look to have rudimentary plastic scraper which won't last one trip into a sand trap. In a decent sphercial bearing there is more than $US15 worth of steel, so I seriously doubt the quality claim as well.

Harsh? Maybe.....no not realy.

Cheers

Gary

Grease rod ends are BAD. They are fine industrial rod ends only. You never use them on a car unless they have OEM style boots (which they never do in a Spherical bearing)

The ones SPL use are the ones I linked earlier. They are a QA1 Xm or endura rod end. They have been proven to get 3 years out of them in a street S13

They are a nylon lined bearings. Teflon punches out (or chunks out) But teflon is still popular.

These are fine to be used in dirt applications Gary.

The idea with rod ends is the tolerence between the liner and the race is so tight, that dirt molecules cant get inside the liner, so it cant wear. Almost all off road buggys DO NOT use dust boots.

Videos are here

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=...sa%3DG%26um%3D1

[cazman]

Thanks Gary.

I've done a fair bit of research on my choices and I'm led to believe the Japanese DFV Ohlins are not the harsh ride expected from most Jap units. I chose them because they are regarded as an excellent unit for street & track and a much better choice than say Tein, HKS, Cusco & Bilstein. The US has some pretty harsh road surfaces and the Ohlins are considered a good choice there, so surely they can't be so mismatched to our surfaces. This was the start but not the end of my search here:

http://g35driver.com/forums/brakes-suspens...-w-updates.html

The spring rates like any good quality unit, match the damper and from what I can accertain, are better than stock ride comfort on soft settings. The valving is apparently much better and more accurate than the Bilstein PSS9/10 which was another choice that has the OEM rear setup (separate shock & spring). As I said, made specifically for the V35/350Z OEM rear so maybe not so tricky

Then again, If your info/advice is based on 1st hand experience with the DFV then all the research in the world is moot.

I could have gone Koni/Eibach but I was told the ride will be more harsh than stock (for daily) so moved away from that idea.

I'm only looking at approx 1" drop, maybe a little more on the front. Not looking at "adjusting" height any more than that and getting a yellow, I'm 43, My back can't handle a sled daily

I didn't want them for bling or constant height change, just to acheive quality ride at a set ride height.

With roll centre I found these? http://www.z1auto.com/prodmore.asp?model=3...amp;prodid=3417

I've got Hotchkis sways ordered too, apparently the best mod for the V35/G35 is stiffer sways so at least I'm on the right track there (no pun intended)!!!!

The spare 18's I've got will get race rubber, I don't intend to run my street tyres/rims on the track as they're 20".

So as you can see, I want the best of both worlds. If it can not be acheived then I will have to accept that and not track the car.

Just letting you know, they are the FAKE kind of RCAs.

They move the arm down but not the pivot point. You need to use a longer shaft to move the pivot down, or you arent actually doing anything.

There are milliions of threads around the world on this, and there are a few on Moonface ones, and customers getting ripped off

[9krpm]

Is there any harm in covering the Rose joints with a lot grease so that dirt/moisture will get trap on the surface of the grease and wont' go into the joint?

[cazman]

Is there any harm in covering the Rose joints with a lot grease so that dirt/moisture will get trap on the surface of the grease and wont' go into the joint?

Yeah thats it, grease is the problem, as it attracts dirt to the joint, which is bad.

As with everything though, there are always 2 or 3 schools of thought

[9krpm]

Well how is it bad if it only stay on the surface of the grease, outside the joint?

It may looks bad but is it really bad?

Most joints that Ive seen has a layer of teflon on the outside lip of the joint, which reduces the larger dust particles from getting into the joint. Sure there will be small size dirt that will get through into the joint with the grease, but without the grease there will be a lot more dirt of this size into the joint.

I like to think of an analogy of mucus in our human nasal cavity which attracts the dust but reduce the amount of dust getting into the lungs...or is it not the same?

[mosoto]

It's actually the nasal hairs that prevent dust particles from passing not mucus, only dogs are supposed to have constantly wet noses

OT grease WILL atract dirt purely by it's nature and hold it there, where a rose joint without grease will shed the dirt.

[9krpm]

It's actually the nasal hairs that prevent dust particles from passing not mucus, only dogs are supposed to have constantly wet noses

OT grease WILL atract dirt purely by it's nature and hold it there, where a rose joint without grease will shed the dirt.

lol nice to be corrected but that was only an analogy mate.

If you get exposed to dust all the time, your nasal system will start to secrete mucus

I can guarantee you that you won't grow more hair

The way fine inspirable particles or dust ( <145 um) are filtered by the nasal system is a bit more complicated than just that. It's a combination of filtration, static adhesion, particle momentum etc. Nasal hair only filter large particle and is not that effective for smaller particles. It's what I specialise in so I didnt want to go overboard on this forum.

You do have a point about grease if you only use it sparingly.

I just finished installation of suspension arm into my car atm and I figured that if I put a whole slab of them on the joint then not much dirt/moisture will get down into the contact surface of the joint.

Anyone think I should wipe the grease off?

Edited September 30, 2009 by 9krpm

[mosoto]

From Wikipedia

The nasal cavities conditions the air to be received by the areas of the respiratory tract and noses. Owing to the large surface area provided by the conchae, the air passing through the nasal cavity is warmed or cooled to within 1 degree of body temperature. In addition, the air is humidified, and dust and other particulate matter is removed by vibrissae, short, thick hairs, present in the vestibule. The cilia of the respiratory epithelium move the particulate matter towards the pharynx where it is digested.

Sorry my bad, I must have read incorrectly.

So given grease is inert & won't move & remove the dust like the epithelium, I'd suggest wiping it off if you have the QA1 Endura offroad spherical bearings

[Sydneykid]

This is a Nissan ball joint, note that it has a dust cover and yes it is full of grease.

Nissan warranty their ball joints for 100,000 k's, they expect it to last at least that long because it has a seal to keep the dust out and the grease in.

On a race car I would, and do, use exposed (no dust shield) spherical bearings. Yes, we do meticulously clean them after every race. But we still replace them frequently because they wear out very fast when exposed to dust, dirt, grit, water and sand etc even for a very short time. If you don't mind the cost in time and money doing that, then by all means run your sphericals exposed.

Cheers

Gary

[cazman]

This is a Nissan ball joint, note that it has a dust cover and yes it is full of grease.

Nissan warranty their ball joints for 100,000 k's, they expect it to last at least that long because it has a seal to keep the dust out and the grease in.

On a race car I would, and do, use exposed (no dust shield) spherical bearings. Yes, we do meticulously clean them after every race. But we still replace them frequently because they wear out very fast when exposed to dust, dirt, grit, water and sand etc even for a very short time. If you don't mind the cost in time and money doing that, then by all means run your sphericals exposed.

Cheers

Gary

A nissan or any factory ball joint is a metal on metal joint with no liner. The grease is effectivly the liner.

In after market rod ends/heims they use a teflon/nylon liner instead of grease.

You can buy rod ends with grease nipples, but almost all race teams recommend against using them

[NYTSKY]

Thread revival

Seeing how adjustable traction rods are time consuming to set with all the other components, where would be the best place be to get them done?

The suspension place I have taken my car to for alignments have closed their workshop

[Risking]

We have all the bump steer gauges, allignment gear and corner weights to set them up.

Do them all the time so have shocks with no springs etc all ready to bolt into the car so do t have to pull your shocks apart to do the setup.

It's easy to spend a whole day doing it from scratch.