Friday Laughs: Camaro Tuner To Take On Gt-r With Turbo V6

[(OO)SKYLINE(OO)]

in factory form that is. i'd say that once they are finished with it it will do the job. braking wise it might even out brake the gtr (depending on what tyres they have on it)

the best thing i like about this is that they are supplying their own gtr to put around the track, so it will be interesting to see how it's time compares to the nissan time which no-one else seems to be able to replicate.

it would be funny if it was found out that some smart-arse nissan engineers had played around with the gtr to make it go faster without telling any of their bosses.

true, but-

a) the nissan test driver, old mate suzuki, is like god behind the wheel. there would be many professional drivers who couldnt match his skill, hence the reason the time around the ring is questioned.

b) a heavily modified evo could crack the gtr's time, so sure, a heavily modified camaro could probably do it too. you have to understand tho, that the gtr was in stock standard trim. right off the showroom floor.

so what does that prove? that with thousands of dollars worth of tuning, r&d, aftermarket parts, and all other costs involved it can beat a stock standard car around the ring? kinda takes some of the sine off it, doesnt it.

So modded Camaro vs Stock R35 GTR...

What if Nissan decides to put up a modified R35 GTR vs Stock / Modded Camaro?

[adamskill]

So modded Camaro vs Stock R35 GTR...

What if Nissan decides to put up a modified R35 GTR vs Stock / Modded Camaro?

i have not driven either car, but from what i have seen and read, a stock 35 gtr will perform better in every way than a stock camaro.

[Raysboostin]

On the other hand lag, as in how many rpm is need before the turbo makes boost wouldn't be affected by the turbo's location.

Cheers

Gary

how do u come up with that answer?? i was lead to believe that exhaust gases lose volume and velocity as they travel down the exhaust. shouldnt that therefore mean it would have a later spool time with an extra 2-3m of pipe as well as a cat between the turbo and exhaust port??

[scathing]

a) the nissan test driver, old mate suzuki, is like god behind the wheel. there would be many professional drivers who couldnt match his skill, hence the reason the time around the ring is questioned.

Yeah I noticed that when Porsche did their own tests in the R35, they got an engineer and not their chief test driver Walter Rohrl. Their announced 997 times were put down by Rohrl, which were faster than an R35 driven by a guy who's primary job is controlling a slide rule.

That's like saying that Motor Magazine is lying about lap times set in my car because I can't match Neal Bates' posted time, even though my car has mods.

[rapidroy]

Careful picking on the Yanks SK!

I would like to drive an STS equipped car some time just to see how it feels.

I do understand SK's point and I'm sure the turbo sizing is very important along with the total volume of the turbo system.

There are several things items that can reduce lag.... Cams, throttle body position, engine size, engine tuning, etc.

The STS is an add on turbo system. Most of the kits they sell go on V8's that have lot's of torque, so getting off the line without boost is not a problem.

How do you compare a Camaro to a GTR when the GTR costs over $100K more? (Plus the Camaro is way better looking!) (Not sure what the AU conversion cost is...)

Check out - www.camaroaustralia.com.au

[rapidroy]

i have not driven either car, but from what i have seen and read, a stock 35 gtr will perform better in every way than a stock camaro.

It should for $100K more....

[mad082]

Careful picking on the Yanks SK!

I would like to drive an STS equipped car some time just to see how it feels.

I do understand SK's point and I'm sure the turbo sizing is very important along with the total volume of the turbo system.

There are several things items that can reduce lag.... Cams, throttle body position, engine size, engine tuning, etc.

The STS is an add on turbo system. Most of the kits they sell go on V8's that have lot's of torque, so getting off the line without boost is not a problem.

How do you compare a Camaro to a GTR when the GTR costs over $100K more? (Plus the Camaro is way better looking!) (Not sure what the AU conversion cost is...)

Check out - www.camaroaustralia.com.au

and i would guess that they use the stock NA compression as well, so off boost they still have plenty of poke.

also, as far as the intake length goes, if you look at how long the intake length on a rb25 with FMIC is, it isn't exactly short either. so if they don't use an intercooler, or just a water to air one, they aren't going to be that much longer. yes it will be longer, but i don't think it would be much longer than double (if it was even that much). yes the time it takes for the exhaust gas to spool the turbo up is much longer, but i think that is where the housing size of the turbo plays it's part. also on a race track i don't think the repsonse is so much of an issue because if you are putting out decent power you are going to feed the power on out of a corner, not just stomp on the gas straight after hard braking. and people don't seem to be too concerned about having lower repsonse when they fit big turbos with big exhaust housings to their cars.

[Birds]

The only way to fairly compare two cars around the Nurburgring is to have one driver test both. Even then there are a ton of variables affecting it, but it's atleast closer for comparison than using two different people of different qualification. I daresay, unless the driver being used in this test is more used to driving Camaros and Camaro style setups (which he/she probably is), then this will be a closer comparison than simply waging this Camaro's time against Nissan's official time.

And really...I'm not saying in any way that Nissan engineers cheated...but there's nothing to say they couldn't have. The engineers were the ones who designed the car. I can assure you no Nurburgring official pulled apart the engine/drivetrain/suspension so they could have the opportunity to say "hey wait a minute that isn't stock!". Stretching the truth for marketing purposes...it's been done plenty of times before...it's not unheard of. Again, I am in no way saying Nissan or Porsche or anyone did this, but they are all certainly capable of it.

As for the STS setup, I don't think it would be that unresponsive or laggy. People wouldn't do them if they were all that bad. It would no doubt differ from traditional setups, but it would do this with both advantages and disadvantages. As far as response and lag goes though, it really doesn't take long for air/gas to travel down piping...just look at some of your intercooler setups...they are still responsive despite the fact you have bends and a big core sitting there to trap air, which probably make up the 4 metres of intake piping needed for the STS setup anyway. Start up a car and see how long it takes for gas to start coming out of the exhaust. But regardless, not all gas would escape out the wastegate when it opens. The piping would still contain atmo gases (both leftover and new gases [from the engine which hasn't stalled just because you're off boost or changed gear]) which only need to be pressurised to start spooling the turbo again - not the whole pipe filled with gas again.

[rapidroy]

Great comments Birds!

So like in golf... or other sports.. how much time handicap do you give a car that is $100k cheaper (Camaro) at the Nurburgring ring?

Edited August 14, 2009 by rapidroy

[mad082]

The only way to fairly compare two cars around the Nurburgring is to have one driver test both. Even then there are a ton of variables affecting it, but it's atleast closer for comparison than using two different people of different qualification. I daresay, unless the driver being used in this test is more used to driving Camaros and Camaro style setups (which he/she probably is), then this will be a closer comparison than simply waging this Camaro's time against Nissan's official time.

And really...I'm not saying in any way that Nissan engineers cheated...but there's nothing to say they couldn't have. The engineers were the ones who designed the car. I can assure you no Nurburgring official pulled apart the engine/drivetrain/suspension so they could have the opportunity to say "hey wait a minute that isn't stock!". Stretching the truth for marketing purposes...it's been done plenty of times before...it's not unheard of. Again, I am in no way saying Nissan or Porsche or anyone did this, but they are all certainly capable of it.

As for the STS setup, I don't think it would be that unresponsive or laggy. People wouldn't do them if they were all that bad. It would no doubt differ from traditional setups, but it would do this with both advantages and disadvantages. As far as response and lag goes though, it really doesn't take long for air/gas to travel down piping...just look at some of your intercooler setups...they are still responsive despite the fact you have bends and a big core sitting there to trap air, which probably make up the 4 metres of intake piping needed for the STS setup anyway. Start up a car and see how long it takes for gas to start coming out of the exhaust. But regardless, not all gas would escape out the wastegate when it opens. The piping would still contain atmo gases (both leftover and new gases [from the engine which hasn't stalled just because you're off boost or changed gear]) which only need to be pressurised to start spooling the turbo again - not the whole pipe filled with gas again.

at least with when porsche put the nissan round the ring you know it was going to be 100% stock. and as i said, we have no way of know if some little smart arse engineer plugged his little laptop into the gtr just before it went round and bumped up the boost a little bit or added in a touch more timing or anything like that. not saying it happened, but can anyone prove 100% that it didn't?

and what do you mean about gases escaping when the wastegate is opened? the wastegate shuts when you lift off the throttle.

as for response/lag on gearchanges, it wouldn't be any different to on a normal turbo setup. the throttle is only shut for a very short amount of time, so the turbo doesn't slow down very much. the only time there would be any difference in repsonse would be after braking or cruising along at light throttle (off boost).

[iamhe77]

Great comments Birds!

So like in golf... or other sports.. how much time handicap do you give a car that is $100k cheaper (Camaro) at the Nurburgring ring?

Just hoping you can clear something up for me Roy.

You keep saying that the GTR is $100k USD dearer than the Camaro... yet the GTR's RRP in the US is $72k for the Premium. Have I missed something?

... unless Americas economy is so bad that they have to pay customers 28k to take a Camaro off their hands

[adamskill]

It should for $100K more....

i would imagine a 32gtr would be quite a match for a camaro.. and a 32gtr is 40,000 cheaper, and is 17 years older.

lets not get too side tracked tho. the thread is a heavily tuned and modified camaro taking on a stock standard r35 gtr. the americans have undertaken this challenge, the goal being to beat the 35 around the ring. the origional price of said vehicles is not a factor in the channelge set.

[Birds]

at least with when porsche put the nissan round the ring you know it was going to be 100% stock. and as i said, we have no way of know if some little smart arse engineer plugged his little laptop into the gtr just before it went round and bumped up the boost a little bit or added in a touch more timing or anything like that. not saying it happened, but can anyone prove 100% that it didn't?

and what do you mean about gases escaping when the wastegate is opened? the wastegate shuts when you lift off the throttle.

as for response/lag on gearchanges, it wouldn't be any different to on a normal turbo setup. the throttle is only shut for a very short amount of time, so the turbo doesn't slow down very much. the only time there would be any difference in repsonse would be after braking or cruising along at light throttle (off boost).

Yep, that's what I'm saying...we can't be 100% sure of anything...for all we know Porsche could have taken it a little easy driving the thing. We can't compare them honestly with no bias unless we compare the cars for ourselves.

Sorry, I was saying (or meant to say) that when the wastegate is open it's only letting out enough exhaust gas to control boost...when it shuts again the remaining atmospheric pressure gases stay in the piping because there's no pressure to push them past the turbine. My bad

[jase-r34]

So like in golf... or other sports.. how much time handicap do you give a car that is $100k cheaper (Camaro) at the Nurburgring ring?

Well I'm sure the GTR doesn't get any time handicap over the 911 turbo even though the GTR is about $200k cheaper.

Maybe someone should spend the $200k modding a GTR to race a stocko 911 then? That would be a close race yeah?

[Birds]

This is why car comparisons are stupid beyond personal preference...price is just one of hundreds of variables that differ between vehicles...

[noisia]

if these guys in texas or wherever the hell they reside in america get credit for actually beating the GTR and the whole "tuned up" camaro thing gets put aside for there "victory" that would piss me off wicked ways

its like a motor magazine testing a relatively built R32-R34 GTR against a off the shelf R35 and saying the R32-R34 is the better pick?!?

[VB-]

lag = physical time it takes for a turbo to spool when its in its operating rpm band, what you guys are referring to is actually boost threshold (what rpm the turbo spools at)

i remember reading about the sts kit ages ago, the designer/engineer or some shit said that becuase there was the same mass in exhaust gas, it could spool a turbo all the same, just with a smaller rear to compensate for the lower volume (due to heat loss), or something along those lines anyway.

[r33skylinegtst]

I've got a soft spot for both cars, i say good luck to them. They've set their sights high and chosen to pursue an interesting setup. A turbo V6 from America? i would have expected them to go straight for the big block V8 or something similar.

Sure, it won't prove it's a better car because at the end of the day you are comparing a stock car to one that's been modified but still, they've obviously recognised the brilliance of the GTR and want to have a crack at it. Good on them!

Edited August 16, 2009 by r33skylinegtst

[baron25]

The nurburgring is irrelevant anyway, unless you send two cars off simultaneously you can't really use their times as an accurate comparison anyway. The track is so big that while one part of the track is bone dry the other side can be wet, track temperature from corner to corner changes dramatically, and all the other variables than can be discounted on a 5km circuit that only covers a small area come into effect on a 22km circuit that covers such a large area.

Perhaps nissan just tested it on a "perfect" day, or porsche didn't try as hard, or they detuned their GTR. They're hardly going to issue a press release and say "Yes, it's true. The Nissan GTR is significantly faster around OUR test track than our flagship model, and at a significantly cheaper price too." they'll be doing everything they can to discredit the time, it just makes business sense.

[scathing]

at least with when porsche put the nissan round the ring you know it was going to be 100% stock. and as i said, we have no way of know if some little smart arse engineer plugged his little laptop into the gtr just before it went round and bumped up the boost a little bit or added in a touch more timing or anything like that. not saying it happened, but can anyone prove 100% that it didn't?

It also wouldn't be hard for Porsche to get one of those aftermarket ECU tuning tools to drop the boost or pull out some timing, let alone something like inserting restrictors into the intake or any other multitude of invisible mods (not that anyone saw the car Porsche used as they didn't publish a video).