Track Suspension...best Coil Over Kits!

[phunky_monkey]

Thanks Snowy, good to hear. I was contemplating the RA/RS option as well, but can get these for a little over $2100 at the moment which seems like a cracking deal and a fair bit cheaper than the Teins.

[Roy]

I know of 5 personally, 2 x R32GTR's, 1 X R32GTST and 1 x R33GTR.

And I just put a set in the Evo X, but it's not a Skyline.

Cheers

Gary

Have any of them been quick out of the box, or have they needed some work/re-work to get them right. Just an obersvation that whilst they are a great product, they may need some development to be right for Skylines straight off the shelf.

That is my only concern with going to local product that because they are all so customised and have not been commonly iffted to Skylines they are a best guess, or you are meant to spec them as though you have a team of engineers working for you and know exactly what the car needs. vs off the shelf mass produced stuff that is closer.

But beauty of the GTSt is that its all pretty straight forward front engined rear wheel drive

[Marlin]

This really is an interesting thread, packed full of good info.

I'd be extremely interested in someone with knowledge to look/feel at what my car needs. Maybe I'd be best served by getting a "pro" into drive it? Would you agree Gary or do you think a tried and tested formula for a GTS-t is out there?

I was lucky enough to borrow a set of DMS from Greg (they're for sale if anyone wants them and I think would be great value) for targa this year and found them a great addition, really soaked up the bumps, we felt we were able to "motorcross" the thing on the public roads.

Now I'm home, I've had to revert to a rebuilt set of Apexi N1's for the circuit duty I do between tarmac rallies. Whilst to me they feel both oversprung and overdamped, the car is quick, very quick. I guess I wonder if "good" springs and shocks could make it quicker?

The main reason I'm considering a set of MCA is for tarmac rallies, where I think a larger bore shock with more capacity is required, normal type shocks just overheat too quickly on long bumpy stages.

[Sydneykid]

Have any of them been quick out of the box, or have they needed some work/re-work to get them right. Just an obersvation that whilst they are a great product, they may need some development to be right for Skylines straight off the shelf.

That is my only concern with going to local product that because they are all so customised and have not been commonly iffted to Skylines they are a best guess, or you are meant to spec them as though you have a team of engineers working for you and know exactly what the car needs. vs off the shelf mass produced stuff that is closer.

But beauty of the GTSt is that its all pretty straight forward front engined rear wheel drive

I can’t give a good Skyline example as the cars have progressed over a number of years, through many iterations. I can however give an rock solid Integra example.

As you know we have had a DC5 racing in Production Car trim for 3 years running Tein N1’s (~$6K). Which, over that time, I had sent back to Fulcrum 3 times for revalving and twice for servicing to fix oil and gas leaks. Plus completely changed the spring rates as they were ridiculous out of the box. After that amount of time and effort I figured we had optimised them as best we could, the car was fast enough for the class pole position and race lap record at the Bathurst 12 Hour. When the chance came along late last year to run a second DC5 we went for MCA’s double adjustables. I had a pretty good handle on the spring rates and Murray chose the valving based on the spring rates, the corner weights and movement plus leverage ratios I told him over the phone. Out of the box the #2 car, according to the drivers, was faster and easier to drive. With very little tuning of bump settings and no change to rebound, at Bathurst it was ~2 seconds a lap faster than the #1 car with the Teins and set a new class qualifying and race record in the 12 Hour itself. We just literally ran the opposition into the ground, they either crashed or broke their cars trying to keep up.

Actually I can give a simple Skyline example, an R33GTR. It had Yamahas (Japanese Ohlins) in it originally and they started to leak, gas and oil. I couldn’t get them serviced anywhere locally, so I dropped in a loan set of MCA (Proflex as it was back then). Straight out of the box the car was way easier to drive, it did the same lap times without stress, on the driver or the tyres. I spent one day tuning the damping, both bump and rebound, and it was 1.5 seconds a lap faster at Eastern Creek and the tyres lasted a whole weekend. Previously it would chew through a set of fronts in 2 sessions. Those MCA’s are now in my R32GTST, suitably modified of course.

My summation, Murray knows his shit.

Cheers

Gary

[T04GTR]

yeah if you were paying $8000 for a set of flag Rs then sure you'd be mad not to take that $8K to murray and see what he can do for you. I would say for guys with $10K burning a hole in their suspension budget that MCA is probably the best track suspension on a dollar/performance/service ratio. but i paid no where near $8K for those ohlins, let's halve that figure, and then go down from there... they might be "$8000" shocks but they didn't cost me $8000.... but I do agree it's not relevant to anyone else what I paid. but they are still good gear.

savman, I find at the track I am more fine tuning with the top adjusters but the bottom ones are far enough from disk to get to without burning yourself. if in doubt.... wear gloves! I most definitely do not adjust them anywhere near as much as I should. next time the car is up and running i will take them to bilstein, put them on their shock dyno and get paul to give me some good base settings to start with for various springs and tracks.

yes i know thry didnt cost you 8k richard you know what im talking about...

[Roy]

Keen to see your GTSt running again Gary. Its great having Two Besn Racing and Adz off the forum playing with GTSt as its easier to see what is working. I am happy with what i am running, but always curious to see what is working in other peoples cars. I will most likely grab some MCA as i think i can move either my Teins or the MCAs to somebody once i have decided what i like best. Thing is if i have to pay to get the shocks re-valved after runing them and another set of springs then there is no way i can consider them. Just need the confidence that the first go at a setup is going to be closer to the money then what i have now which i think is damn good

[Snowman]

Yeah well I know one R33 GTR that has some MCA's in it and it's very average. It was used at Targa and had no end of problems as well. The guy who drove it there hated it and sold it straight afterwards and by all accounts the set-up on it is still shocking to this day.

I can't say for sure who was responsible for the settings in the car as it sits now, but if it came with Murrays recommended settings for that car for Targa and nothing has changed then I think you are going to have to spend some time finding what works for you (unless you either get lucky or else can pinch someone else's data who has the same basic car) if you go down that path.

I have no doubt Murray knows suspension as good as anyone out there - but that doesn't necessarily means he knows the atributes of all of the cars he builds suspension for and consequently the prefect settings. I know the suggested settings he discussed with me were along the lines I'd expect to see in an EVO which from my knowledge are usually fairly different to a GT-R - but he was the first person to admit that his suggestions were only a guess. So....

[sav man]

Yeah well I know one R33 GTR that has some MCA's in it and it's very average. It was used at Targa and had no end of problems as well. The guy who drove it there hated it and sold it straight afterwards and by all accounts the set-up on it is still shocking to this day.

I can't say for sure who was responsible for the settings in the car as it sits now, but if it came with Murrays recommended settings for that car for Targa and nothing has changed then I think you are going to have to spend some time finding what works for you (unless you either get lucky or else can pinch someone else's data who has the same basic car) if you go down that path.

I have no doubt Murray knows suspension as good as anyone out there - but that doesn't necessarily means he knows the atributes of all of the cars he builds suspension for and consequently the prefect settings. I know the suggested settings he discussed with me were along the lines I'd expect to see in an EVO which from my knowledge are usually fairly different to a GT-R - but he was the first person to admit that his suggestions were only a guess. So....

is that the silver one with profex that originated from tassie?

[Beer Baron]

And how many Skylines/GTRs are running MCA?

mark and russ are running coote on the R34 too, and love 'em.

I should say though they are a long way from off the shelf. both in set-up and design, plus they had murray spend a day with the car helping with set-up. so I'm not sure how it reflects on his off the shelf skyline kits.

[Beer Baron]

yes i know thry didnt cost you 8k richard you know what im talking about...

hehe, dunno what you could mean...

[Sydneykid]

mark and russ are running coote on the R34 too, and love 'em.

I should say though they are a long way from off the shelf. both in set-up and design, plus they had murray spend a day with the car helping with set-up. so I'm not sure how it reflects on his off the shelf skyline kits.

I'm not sure what is meant by "off the shelf" when it comes to MCA's. I tell Murray what car it’s for, what range of spring rates I intend using, what anti roll rates, what tyres, if it’s a new car to us I also tell him the movement and leverage ratios. I also talk about the tracks we are running on. I have never just picked up the phone and said “send me a set of shocks for a Skyline” and then hung up expecting to get exactly what I need via courier the next day. That’s just not how we work. Plus Murray mostly uses Kings and we only use Eibachs, so we tend to get shocks only from Murray.

Murray also sends the shock dyno files so we can compare them with our own shock dyno outputs. That tells us when the shocks need servicing or if we have a problem at a track.

Using that method I have only ever sent one pair back for mods and that was due to bad info on a car I personally hadn’t seen, weighed or measured. It was a prime example of garbage in = garbage out, hardly Murray’s fault. Even then they weren’t that far out, we just wanted the adjusters closer to the middle of their range.

Tuning wise we have a standard new car program we follow for Production Cars, which I have used for 15 years or so now. It’s very similar to the V8SuperCar and F3 new car / new driver development procedure that we follow, just simpler mostly due to no aero to confuse the issue.

As usual with motorsport it’s all about having the resources and how you use them.

Cheers

Gary

[2pee]

Actually I can give a simple Skyline example, an R33GTR. It had Yamahas (Japanese Ohlins) in it originally and they started to leak, gas and oil. I couldn't get them serviced anywhere locally, so I dropped in a loan set of MCA (Proflex as it was back then). Straight out of the box the car was way easier to drive, it did the same lap times without stress, on the driver or the tyres. I spent one day tuning the damping, both bump and rebound, and it was 1.5 seconds a lap faster at Eastern Creek and the tyres lasted a whole weekend. Previously it would chew through a set of fronts in 2 sessions. Those MCA's are now in my R32GTST, suitably modified of course.

My summation, Murray knows his shit.

Murray actually services those canistered Ohlins shown earlier - possibly not the other varieties, Frank (who I'm assuming you're referring to and won't touch the car shocks) seemed to think the pistons had an off road bike basis, so maybe the internals had Swedish origins and just the bodies are done in Japan. Interestingly, some of the guys in the US use those MX pistons turned down in older 3 and 4 way TT44s in club Atlantic and so forth which may reflect the larger part of their market and on-going development.

In a non Nissan installation, valving and springing as supplied was a good way off for local and a certain O/S track condition, tellingly, the new build is MCA to avoid all the back and forth and $$.

[Kaido_RR]

Tein Type RS are within your budget, i rate them very highly! and have no issue with them in my skyline when its hit the track

http://www.tein.co.jp/e/products/super_racing.html

also Ohlins are not that $$$ when you by direct from japan, when i get home i throw up a price And as Beer Baron mention most bike shop should be able to rebuild them if needed, as Ohlins Japan is very common for bikes and rated as one of the better shocks

Edited September 19, 2009 by Kaido_RR

[aleks]

Thanks Snowy, good to hear. I was contemplating the RA/RS option as well, but can get these for a little over $2100 at the moment which seems like a cracking deal and a fair bit cheaper than the Teins.

Where from??

[phunky_monkey]

Ebay US

[Marlin]

Yeah well I know one R33 GTR that has some MCA's in it and it's very average. It was used at Targa and had no end of problems as well. The guy who drove it there hated it and sold it straight afterwards and by all accounts the set-up on it is still shocking to this day.

I can't say for sure who was responsible for the settings in the car as it sits now, but if it came with Murrays recommended settings for that car for Targa and nothing has changed then I think you are going to have to spend some time finding what works for you (unless you either get lucky or else can pinch someone else's data who has the same basic car) if you go down that path.

I have no doubt Murray knows suspension as good as anyone out there - but that doesn't necessarily means he knows the atributes of all of the cars he builds suspension for and consequently the prefect settings. I know the suggested settings he discussed with me were along the lines I'd expect to see in an EVO which from my knowledge are usually fairly different to a GT-R - but he was the first person to admit that his suggestions were only a guess. So....

One needs to stand back and look at that situation as a whole mate. The driver had no prior GTR experience, and there was evidently something wrong with the car as it also broke an upper Nismo arm, so all was not well with that car in my humble opinion.....

[Sydneykid]

Murray actually services those canistered Ohlins shown earlier - possibly not the other varieties, Frank (who I'm assuming you're referring to and won't touch the car shocks) seemed to think the pistons had an off road bike basis, so maybe the internals had Swedish origins and just the bodies are done in Japan. Interestingly, some of the guys in the US use those MX pistons turned down in older 3 and 4 way TT44s in club Atlantic and so forth which may reflect the larger part of their market and on-going development.

In a non Nissan installation, valving and springing as supplied was a good way off for local and a certain O/S track condition, tellingly, the new build is MCA to avoid all the back and forth and $$.

Yamaha specifically bought Ohlins for their motorcycle shock technology, so it's not surprising that the Ohlins branded car shocks that come out of the Yamaha factory in Japan are similae style to the Ohlins motorcycle shocks. I haven’t directly compared the Japanese Ohlins motorcycle shocks with the Swedish Ohlins we use on V8Supercars etc. But I have compared Japanese Ohlins car shocks with the Swedish Ohlins and they are totally different. Piston design, casting, valve layout, adjuster methodology, they are all different.

Cheers

Gary

[Snowman]

One needs to stand back and look at that situation as a whole mate. The driver had no prior GTR experience, and there was evidently something wrong with the car as it also broke an upper Nismo arm, so all was not well with that car in my humble opinion.....

It broke the arm because the Nismo arm was apparently in up-side down! (and the replacement one went in up-side down as well! LOL)

The arms are all the right way up now, and the rest of the car is running fine - but it still doesn't drive all that nicely so I'm told. I can't tell you what settings the suspension is set to right now because I simply don't know. And I don't know who set it up either (I just know where it is now!)

But I do know in my discussions with Murray for what spring settings he suggested for my car for Targa it was 500lb front springs and 400lb rear springs - which is a lot different to what I currently run. And we went though a lot of different set-up changes in my car to get it to where it is now. So I would be suprised to hear that people who race these cars in these events (or anything really) would agree that those rates sound about right for a GTR. And I also wouldn't be all that suprised it if turns out the rates in that Silver car are around those figures.

I'll say it again that I'm sure Murray knows his stuff backwards but perhaps he doesn't know the ideal settings for every single car out there. Gary himself has said in here when he orders MCA stuff he gives Murray the spring rates he wants to run and Murray does the rest. The point being that the shocks can be the best in the world but it might matter squat if they aren't set correctly to the car, so don't necessarily go giving MCA a call and say you want some new shocks for you car and expect to go 2s/lap faster if you leave everything up to them! Maybe he does and maybe I'm wrong, but I won't be running 500/400's in my car just yet.

[Marlin]

That's fair enough Snow, but I do assume that setting a car up for circuit as opposed to tarmac rally is quite different.

For instance, my car is quick with shit in it on the circuit, but I bet it aint quick with the same shit in it on a rally stage, but it sure was with the DMS in it. I'm glad you haven't asked me what spring rates I ran in the DMS at Targa. LOL

[warps]

I'll say it again that I'm sure Murray knows his stuff backwards but perhaps he doesn't know the ideal settings for every single car out there

Of course he doesn't!! Nobody possibly could. The best one could hope to achieve with a car they have never dealt with before is plug the key parameters into a computer program to achieve a good starting point. Then you fine tune it from there (although if you are close with spring rates, then there are a lot of other methods of fine tuning without resorting to replacing springs)..

I spoke to Murray about suspension for my new rally car. As there aren't any out there rallying yet (certainly not with MCA gear), he has no data to draw from, and he threw a couple of figures at me, saying these are very rough guesses, which he can refine after putting the car on his corner weight scales. The numbers were similar to what I had in mind, just extrapolating similar size and spec gravel rally cars that I've seen, but again that would be a very basic starting point for me. I would expect after corner weighting the car in final trim, we should have a better idea of where to start. Then if in doubt, I will probably go softer than what the maths tell me - byt that's just my personal preference.