Fake Parts

[5hu7o]

i read somewhere a while ago a chinese/taiwanese company was making fake walbro fuel pumps

i think thi is the link

http://www.fuel-pumps.net/walbro-forgeries.html

[scathing]

its people who are too tight to pay for the real thing because wankers like nengun.com sell directly into australia and not pay any duty or gst, and shaft every retailer and people who has anything to do with the car industry...its why apexi and trust went into recievership.

I'm not sure I understand you correctly.

Are you saying that parts ordered and then sold by a Japanese retailer are less "real" than the same parts bought in by an Australian retailer?

Or are you saying that two Japanese parts manufacturers went into receivership because some Japanese retailers manage to sell their products to foreign countries?

At any rate, I'm not sure what a product bought by a consumer that avoided a foreign country's duties and taxes has to do with the parent company. It's not like they see a cent from Australian import duty or GST, so you're not exactly taking money out of A'PEXi or Trust's coffers.

[Shiraz200SX]

i do sell the knock off ssqv's, but they're clearly labelled "monza" on them, and i tell people that they're a copy and not the real thing. its people who are too tight to pay for the real thing because wankers like nengun.com sell directly into australia and not pay any duty or gst, and shaft every retailer and people who has anything to do with the car industry. it's a load of crap. its why apexi and trust went into recievership. if anyone buys parts of e-bay and gets shafted by a copy, sucks to be you.

I think you might have your wires crossed there - from what I've seen, Nengun sell only legitimate stuff!

where do i mention that negun sell fake parts?

i said

. its people who are too tight to pay for the real thing because wankers like nengun.com sell directly into australia and not pay any duty or gst, and shaft every retailer and people who has anything to do with the car industry. it's a load of crap. its why apexi and trust went into recievership.

by that i mean, you choose to directly import a part into australia, (without paying duty or gst or other fees like insurance, wage, theft, advertising and all the other expenses that come with running a business,) and therefore shaft retailers and businesses.

now re-read, and you may take your foot from your mouth.

[[200]]

where do i mention that negun sell fake parts?

i said

by that i mean, you choose to directly import a part into australia, (without paying duty or gst or other fees like insurance, wage, theft, advertising and all the other expenses that come with running a business,) and therefore shaft retailers and businesses.

You need to realise that people who work hard for THEIR money can do what they want with THEIR money.

And I personally will always import parts for what ever car I wish to build IF it's cheaper for me to do so and I would expect the people that actually use their brain to build a car would do the same! You could potentially save a massive amount of money doing it that way, money that can go towards other things.

I ran an online car parts website for a few years and I ended up removing it from the web for a few reasons, one was the local parts retailers IMO were overpriced. Why the hell would I buy a set of pistons (for example) from x stockist when I can jump on ebay even and buy the same things for a considerable amount less? Then you find the US car forum / Yahoo Japan Auctions and find the parts even cheaper!

I can agree with what you're saying to an extent, but the Aussie retails don't seem to be in touch with the exchange rates, when the Aussie dollar gets stronger they don't pass on the savings to their customers.

At the end of the day it's their choice to be a retailer, no one is forcing them to start that kind of business. No one is asking them to keep their business open even if its running at a loss. If they want to be more appealing to local customers then perhaps they need to look at what they're actually doing and seeing what competition is out there.

But I guess you'll be the dummy and pay more to support a local retailer rather than saving and buying from elsewhere - good for you.

[Shiraz200SX]

You need to realise that people who work hard for THEIR money can do what they want with THEIR money.

this goes the same for an australian wholesaler that PAYS for the rights to sell a copywrited/patented product within australia, not just some jerkoff who can buy ten sets of a part and sell it for stuff all, being that they havent paid duty, gst or associated expenses.

And I personally will always import parts for what ever car I wish to build IF it's cheaper for me to do so and I would expect the people that actually use their brain to build a car would do the same! You could potentially save a massive amount of money doing it that way, money that can go towards other things.

if you want to import your own parts, go for it, what you're doing (in some cases) is illegal, and only serves to push up the prices that the original wholesaler has set, due to them having stock thats not selling as much, which means dead money, which means no more stock, which means no more money, which means no more company. it's in your best intrests to buy within australia, even if it's from a company that imports parts illegally and sells them, as long as it's within your country. chances are the retailer is connected to you in some way.

yes, some retailers put ridiculous mark up's on products, but bear in mind, they are there to run a business, not to make friends. When i personally sell parts, i mark them at the retail price that's set by the company, and if someone should choose to ask me about the item, and whether they can buy it cheaper, i'll usually sell it for what i think is fair for the quality of the product. thats only me though, but it's like everything, a few tossers ruin it for everyone.

I ran an online car parts website for a few years and I ended up removing it from the web for a few reasons, one was the local parts retailers IMO were overpriced. Why the hell would I buy a set of pistons (for example) from x stockist when I can jump on ebay even and buy the same things for a considerable amount less? Then you find the US car forum / Yahoo Japan Auctions and find the parts even cheaper!

you'd buy parts from an australian stockist if you had any clue about running a real business, not just slapping up a web page. for example- when cletus mcgee buys a set of forged pistons that even though he told you exactly what he wanted, and you got exactly what he asked for and supplied it, BUT its wrong and its all your fault, and he's bellowing over the counter at you, at least you can call the supplier and exchange the part for the "correct one". or if by some chance the part has a manufacturing defect you can get warranty, which no one seems to care about unitl you need it.

I can agree with what you're saying to an extent, but the Aussie retails don't seem to be in touch with the exchange rates, when the Aussie dollar gets stronger they don't pass on the savings to their customers.

this may be true, but remembering that:

A. stock isnt bought in from japan/china/where-ever daily or even weekly, so therefore, if the dollar jumps up 15% it's not going to make a pinch of shit difference to stuff that's been paid for by the stockist over a month ago, and is now sitting on your shop shelves.

B. stockists generally dont raise their prices when the dollar is weak, some will sell things at a low margin, or at no margin, or in extreme cases, at negative margin.

B. businesses (the one i work at anyway) absorb a lot of increases, such as freight, until it starts to eat into the profit, so realistically, if you want things to get cheaper when the dollar is strong, you'd have to be prepared to pay for it when the dollar is weak. can't have it both ways.

C. Big stockists ofen offer deals/discounts, i do try to pass on the saving, after all, it's about making it more attractive for people to buy.

At the end of the day it's their choice to be a retailer, no one is forcing them to start that kind of business. No one is asking them to keep their business open even if its running at a loss. If they want to be more appealing to local customers then perhaps they need to look at what they're actually doing and seeing what competition is out there.

no, i guess some people choose to be someone's bitch for their whole life, and some people start a business and be their own boss, you shouldn't be condescending towards anyone that runs their own business, it's frustrating at the best of times. a good business owner checks the local competitors, and often will try to run some items cheaper than them, but to do that, other things must become more expensive to still make money. in the case of large franchises, it's not often that the performance market is completely understood, because people who understand it break away and try to rival that franchise locally in that performance niche market.

But I guess you'll be the dummy and pay more to support a local retailer rather than saving and buying from elsewhere - good for you.

i sure will, because it keeps me in a job. good for you for discovering sarcasm.

[Shiraz200SX]

I'm not sure I understand you correctly.

Are you saying that parts ordered and then sold by a Japanese retailer are less "real" than the same parts bought in by an Australian retailer?

no. obviously not, that would be retarded. im saying that they come with no warranty or support, and that an australian distributor has been appointed for a reason, and that choosing to directly import parts takes money from them, that meaning that they have less cashflow, and must increase margins to cover costs. (in some cases)

Or are you saying that two Japanese parts manufacturers went into receivership because some Japanese retailers manage to sell their products to foreign countries?

yes, this is partly why, their parts are already expensive, without people making shit copies of them, and their appointed distributors doing less frequent ordering due to people buying directly.

At any rate, I'm not sure what a product bought by a consumer that avoided a foreign country's duties and taxes has to do with the parent company. It's not like they see a cent from Australian import duty or GST, so you're not exactly taking money out of A'PEXi or Trust's coffers.

refer to above, not directly taking money away, but it can eventuate into something like that, what happened to those particular companies was different, just using them as an example, albeit a poor one.

[[200]]

Perhaps you need to find another profession...

BTW, tell me what's illegal about importing parts from overseas ? I am curious to see what your understanding is.

With regards to Trust/Greddy - perhaps no one wanted to buy their products anymore because other competition were offering a better product for a cheaper price... But you've already acknowledged that it was a poor choice.

[bozodos]

If you freely admit that you sell knock off parts, how can you condemn places like Nengun? Japanese parts aren't cheap, and of course people are going to try and get the best price they can. If you think there's any loyalty to 'buying australian' you're mistaken.

[scathing]

i do sell the knock off ssqv's, but they're clearly labelled "monza" on them, and i tell people that they're a copy and not the real thing.

Wouldn't selling knock-off parts be a more plausible reason for R&D-costly companies going under than a foreign retailer selling parts to the same market as a local retailer?

where do i mention that negun sell fake parts?

i said

its people who are too tight to pay for the real thing because wankers like nengun.com sell directly into australia

now re-read, and you may take your foot from your mouth

The only person with foot-in-mouth disease here is you.

I added the emphasis for you. You said that people who don't way to pay for the real thing are buying from Nengun instead. That implies that Nengun is selling fakes.

no. obviously not, that would be retarded.

Yes, that's the same thing the rest of us noticed when you posted it.

by that i mean, you choose to directly import a part into australia, (without paying duty or gst or other fees like insurance, wage, theft, advertising and all the other expenses that come with running a business,) and therefore shaft retailers and businesses.

If you meant something else, then say something else. We're not mind readers.

At any rate, its a bit two-faced of you to say that customers buying directly from overseas is "shafting" you when you're importing Japanese designed, Japanese/Chinese made goods and putting Australian performance part manufacturers out of business.

[scathing]

yes, some retailers put ridiculous mark up's on products, but bear in mind, they are there to run a business, not to make friends.

With that philosophy, how can you get so upset at the flipside of the same coin?

If we're to "bear in mind" that some people who run businesses want to charge a fat margin why don't you "bear in mind" that some customers will buy the product they want at the lowest possible price? They want to reduce their expenditure, not make friends.

im saying that they come with no warranty or support

That's the customer's choice. Their monetary saving is at the expense of post-sales support. Caveat emptor.

choosing to directly import parts takes money from them

That's specious. A lot of customers import a product directly at a cheap price because that's all they can afford, and its the best item available in their budget.

As a hypothetical example, lets say I was to privately import a Rolls Royce Phantom for $10,000 on the road. You'd be drawing a long bow to say that my grey importation took money away from Rolls Royce Australia. I bought the $10K Phantom because its the best car I could afford - had that option not been available I wouldn't have magically discovered the $1 million required to order one from the local retailer. I would have bought some other $10,000 car instead.

Same with parts. Lets I wanted a brand new intercooler. If I couldn't afford a Australian delivered RRP JDM one and couldn't find a warrantyless one from Nengun, I would have bought a much-cheaper Hybrid instead.

For those people who could afford a RRP JDM intercooler but decided to buy one privately, chances are they spent the difference on some other part they wanted. Since both parts were "needed" for their goals, they still couldn't afford paying that much for a single part.

If I remember correctly, it's also the customer's responsibility to ensure all duties and taxes are paid (and the ATO/Customs can chase me for up to 7 years after the purchase to obtain it). I'm still on the hook for the money, but if the organisation fails to chase after it then that's their choice. Just like the ATO doesn't go out of their way chasing me with my tax refund cheque in hand when I don't submit a request (i.e. a tax return form) after being overtaxed in my PAYE, I don't see why I should bend over backwards giving the government their money if they don't ask me for it when my goods pass through Customs.

Any duties/taxes levied also goes straight to the government, so that money not paid by the privately importing customer has nothing to do with the retailer.

that meaning that they have less cashflow, and must increase margins to cover costs. (in some cases)

I fail to see how the first part is the customer's problem (we're not here to make friends, as you put it), and the second part means people are even less likely to shop there.

yes, this is partly why, their parts are already expensive, without people making shit copies of them, and their appointed distributors doing less frequent ordering due to people buying directly.

When did we go back to talking about shit copies? I thought you were talking about genuine products being privately imported, since you "never accused Nengun of selling fake parts" and that's all I've been replying to.

You were missing my point that you quoted, since you keep muddying the waters between parallel import parts and fake parts. Try to stick to one or the other.

A'PEXi/Trust make products that get sold to wholesalers/retailers. Who that wholesaler/retailer is, and their physical location, is irrelevant. If Nengun sells a genuine A'PEXi/Trust product to someone, the manufacturing company makes money. It doesn't matter to A'PEXi/Trust where that someone is, they made a sale.

Its the retailer in the middle that has to worry. One retailer selling a part means another retailer doesn't. That's you vs Nengun. If A'PEXi/Trust shifts x number of units out of the factory, what do they care who shifts a greater percentage of x than the other?

Unless A'PEXi/Trust have a local subsidiary that they've invested their own money into, which to my knowledge they haven't, they lose nothing if a local retailer fails to make a sale...as long as the foreign retailer is selling their products to the same customerbase.

The only way A'PEXi/Trust would lose out is if they stopped shifting x number of units, which means neither Nengun nor yourself managed to sell parts to customers.

So yes, it was a very poor example. Since its irrelevant.

i guess some people choose to be someone's bitch for their whole life, and some people start a business and be their own boss, you shouldn't be condescending towards anyone that runs their own business

Firstly, it didn't sound condescending. It just sounded like the facts of life. If you can't handle the way the market behaves, don't get into it. No-one's forcing you to be there.

Secondly, as a "wage slave" I'm only a bitch to 1 person, my direct line manager. As a small business owner, you're every idiot customer's bitch. As a small cog in a big machine, I'm also a lot more insulated against economic issues like the exchange rate, whereas I noticed a lot of parts retailers were copping a spanking when the arse fell out of the Aussie dollar against the USD and JPY last year.

For someone who's "choosing not to be a bitch for their whole life" you are doing a lot of whining about the "unfairness" of market forces in a global economy.

[08r3308]

anyone would get a cheaper genuine part, some "performance stores" will charge more for a same part that you can get from traders here and will try to sell it to you more than rrp and i have seen it happen so many times.

like we all seen greedy prices from some autobahn stores , im not saying they are bad but the prices are ridiculous when you can get same part for much much cheaper form traders here on sau.

if you know what you are doing and know the prices they will want you out of their shop quick smart because they cant rip you off

[mad082]

i love the fact that so many people are missinformed about how damaging to the economy privately importing products are. privately importing stuff has a massive effect on the economy when it is done on a large scale (by that i mean lots of people doing it).

i will explain a few things that happen on the wholesale side of things. if the australian distributor isn't owned by the parent company they may be required to pay a large amount just to become the distributor. for example i know of a bike company whose previous distributor was closing down, and the asking price for anyone wanting to be the new supplier was $100,000. that was before they even ordered a single item.

then there is the cost that australian suppliers have to pay for the stock. they have to buy it at a higher cost that what the parent company does (so that the parent company is making money from the sales too). this means that even if the same mark up was used the price that the end customer pays is already higher due to the higher buy price to start with. also the fact of freight comes into it. while the cost per item will be less than if you buy a single item, shipping still costs a hell of a lot for a container, where as if something is japanese made, then they only have to ship it an extremely short distance (relatively speaking).

then there is import duty and GST. this immediately adds 15.5% onto the price. and the fact that all retailers and wholesalers work or a percentage mark up, if you alter the initial cost price by $1, the final retail price may be altered by anywhere from $3 to $10 in extremely marked up items.

now is when the consumer starts affecting things. while buying the product there will often be cases where the more you buy, the cheaper it gets. there will also be minimum quantity buys as well, and sometimes they will be forced to buy other products as well which they know aren't going to sell very well but they still have to pay for them. where the consumer affects this is with the quantity side of things, which i will go into more detail.

it costs a set amount to run a warehouse. you have to pay rent, running costs (electricity, etc), staff and all that sort of stuff. most people who haven't been in business don't realise just how much it costs, and how much you have to sell to make your basic running costs. for example i have a shop that is about 10m x 15m, and it costs me $2500 a month in rent. to make enough profit to pay that, with my profit margin i have to sell about $7500 worth of stock, and that is just to pay 1 single bill. if i was to employ 2 staff full time that would be another $20,000 a month i would have to sell just to make enough profit to pay them. it isn't just a case of sell $2500 worth of stuff to pay the rent. yes that does give you the money in the bank to pay the rent, but you also have to replace the stock you sold. now if you aren't selling many items you need to make lots of profit per item to meet your basic running costs. if you are selling lots of stuff and are making good money, but are starting to lose sales to a better priced item, you can lower your mark up to get more sales and thus you will still be make as much money at the end of the day. this is where the population also comes into play. australia has a population of 20 million. japan has a population of about 120 million. therefore all the above mentioned costs are spread over a much larger customer base. plus the fact that (in this case) the parts the companies are selling are for cars that were sold domestically in the country and not privately imported in small numbers.

if consumers start buying stuff from overseas at prices that you can't compete with, lowering your price isn't going to do much at all. instead you have to look at other measures, such as firing staff, or raising prices (which then hurts you even more). this is the big point that most of you are missing. the more people buy from overseas, the more unemployment we are going to have. so next time you ring up someone like testra and get an overseas operator, just remember that it is people like you who want everything at the lowest possible price who are the cause of that.

[[200]]

i love the fact that so many people are missinformed about how damaging to the economy privately importing products are. privately importing stuff has a massive effect on the economy when it is done on a large scale (by that i mean lots of people doing it).

I don't think it's the fact that people are misinformed, it's the fact that people will shop around for the best and cheapest price they can find whether it be overseas or locally.

I for one couldn't give a shit about the local market / economy.

What matters to me is what part I want and where is the cheapest I can buy it from. I am sure a lot of people who have spent a decent amount of coin on their cars would agree. They would be kidding themselves if they didn't.

[Birds]

Welcome to the downside of globalisation gentlemen. If a country doesn't have it's own specialised industry for which to offer other countries a better price, it has no place in the modern world beyond it's own people supporting it.

[mad082]

if you were to lose your job because your boss couldn't continue to pay you because of too many people buying from overseas you would very quickly care about it.

and it can affect you much more indirectly than that. say you live in a town that has a high retail economy but you work for a builder and people start buying more and more stuff from overseas. eventually there will be lots of people who are unemployed, and not many unemployed people can afford to build new houses, so your boss lays you off. that is the big thing. at the end of the day, where you spend your money affects your job security, because the more you spend in your local area the more local people are employed. and the more local people are employed the more money they have to spend at your work, keeping you in a job and even possibly leading to you getting paid more. you can't just look at it as "i'll do what helps me the most right now".

the other thing you have to take into account with buying stuff from overseas is that often the warranty is void or can only be dealt with with the person you bought it off. i prefer to buy from somewhere that if something is wrong i can simply walk back in and get them to sort it out. i don't have to rely on emails to hopefully get it sorted out. how many people do you hear of having issues where their emails aren't being replied to? lots.

but hey, it's your money, you can do what you want with it. just thought that i would post up some information to give people an idea of why prices can be the way they are so that people don't just automatically think that it is the retailer ripping them off.

also i should mention that the reason why a lot of places are cheaper online than actual stores is various reasons. 1 is that some of them are operating as the middle man. they don't carry any stock. you want something, they order it and send it straight to you. this dramitcally cuts down their running costs. another reason is that some see it as 'bonus income'. they are selling to customers that wouldn't come into their store due to living in different areas, etc, so they will sell it cheaper online than what they do instore. and yet another reason is that they are buying it in bulk due to the extra sales that they are getting online. and as i said earlier, bulk buys usually attract a discount.

[scathing]

I love the fact that so many people are missinformed about how damaging to the economy privately importing products are. privately importing stuff has a massive effect on the economy when it is done on a large scale (by that i mean lots of people doing it).

at the end of the day, where you spend your money affects your job security, because the more you spend in your local area the more local people are employed

Wouldn't that also apply to the manufacturing industry? Shouldn't all those bleeding heart retailers who are "doing it for the local economy" also buy Australian-made goods, instead of bringing in goods from overseas?

It sounds a bit hypocritical to have a whinge that you (not you specifically mad082, but "you" as in a general reference to retailers claiming that "buying from overseas" is bad for our economy) can't compete on price due to overheads compared to overseas retailers, when you're basically sinking the local manufacturing industry because you're bringing in cheaper parts en masse in from another country.

All that's happening, thanks to the availability of cheap global communications, is that customers are doing to entities further up the consumer chain what retailers have been doing for years.

A quarry is not the best place to build a greenhouse.

[mad082]

that still comes down to the consumer. the retaillers could stock the aussie made stuff (and a lot do) but people won't buy it because sitting next to it is an item for 1/3 the price. and as other people's posts have clearly stated, the average consumer doesn't give a shit about where it's made or the effect on the economy they are having, as long as the item they are buying at this particular moment is the cheapest possible.

also there are certain industries where there simply isn't any australian made products.

[scathing]

that still comes down to the consumer. the retaillers could stock the aussie made stuff (and a lot do) but people won't buy it because sitting next to it is an item for 1/3 the price.

The solution is right there. Don't stock the cheap, overseas, stuff at all if they care so much about the local economy. Don't give customers a choice, and if they want/need something they'll buy what's available.

My point was that retailers make the cheapo imported stuff available, since they can either pump more volume or pad more margin on the cheaper goods.

If they honestly, deep-down, gave that much of a shit about the local economy over their own profit they wouldn't import out of principle. But, as Shiraz200SX so eloquently put it, businesses are there to run a business. Friends, principles, etc are only applicable as marketing tools to convince people to buy stuff from them.

Edited September 10, 2009 by scathing

[mad082]

The solution is right there. Don't stock the cheap, overseas, stuff at all if they care so much about the local economy. Don't give customers a choice, and if they want/need something they'll buy what's available.

My point was that retailers make the cheapo imported stuff available, since they can either pump more volume or pad more margin on the cheaper goods.

If they honestly, deep-down, gave that much of a shit about the local economy over their own profit they wouldn't import out of principle. But, as Shiraz200SX so eloquently put it, businesses are there to run a business. Friends, principles, etc are only applicable as marketing tools to convince people to buy stuff from them.

that's all well and good if you are the only shop in town, but if you are one of 4 or 5 shops selling the same stuff, not stocking the cheaper stuff is a sure fire way to go out of business very quickly.

[scathing]

that's all well and good if you are the only shop in town, but if you are one of 4 or 5 shops selling the same stuff, not stocking the cheaper stuff is a sure fire way to go out of business very quickly.

Surely since all retailers are such upstanding folk who are the only ones with the long-term vision to look after the local economy (and the entire country as a result), that they would all band together and support said economy by all only stocking locally made goods. I figured that, for the good of the nation, none of you would stoop to selling imported goods and destroying a sector of the Australian economy because you want to maximise the currency in your coffers.

I thought that it's only scum-sucking customers, out to save a quick buck at the expense of the economy and the Aussie battlers out there, that have the selfishness to think only about keeping as much money to themselves at the long-term expense of everyone else.