Driver Aids

[Tony de Wonderful]

I was reading about Peter Wheeler's (former owner of TVR) design philopshy which was to reject ABS, traction control, air-bags etc being incorporated into TVR design. He believed these made drivers overconfident and so led to more accidents.

I guess it is a more 'purist' approach to sports car design?

I'm sure if you get in an accident then an air-bag is great, but would it not be better to drive more carefully instead?

My R33 has ABS and air-bags. I'm not sure I'd like to take out the air-bag, and I like the ABS. Traction control? Well that is just ghey?! How are you supposed to do burn-outs?? lol

[lachlanw]

i like how they call the ferrari f 40 the last real super car . none of that shit . just massive wheels and a twin turbo v8

[Mayuri Krab]

The only "power options" I would like to have is Power steering & power windows

Currently 50/50 give or miss on ABS.

As my current car don't have ABS nor airbag nor TCS, & the only car I have driven that had ABS was the Camry & you can't really go fast enough to lock up the brakes on that car anyway

[Tony de Wonderful]

The only "power options" I would like to have is Power steering & power windows

I think your brakes are 'power' also, just not ABS. They are servo assisted.

[scathing]

I was reading about Peter Wheeler's (former owner of TVR) design philopshy which was to reject ABS, traction control, air-bags etc being incorporated into TVR design. He believed these made drivers overconfident and so led to more accidents.

So does advanced driver training.

That doesn't mean we should let unskilled drivers onto the road (even though we do, and look how well that philosphy is working out for us).

I'm sure if you get in an accident then an air-bag is great, but would it not be better to drive more carefully instead?

What if someone goes head-on into you? You could be the most careful person on the planet, but it won't save you if you're stopped at a set of lights and a Domenic Torretto wannabe loses control and crashes into the front of your car.

In my opinion, it depends on what you want. If you're talking about a driver's car, then as few aids as possible (or switchable, so the driver decides if they get them) gives you the most visceral experience. As much of a shitbox as it is, I love driving my old Swift GTi. No power steering, no power assisted brakes, and a light chassis powered by a very willing engine. It may not be fast, but its fun.

My idea of the perfect road legal driver's car is the Elise (pre carpet, stereo, etc). Engine in the middle that has "just enough" power, RWD, no weight, no power assistance. As much as I like TVRs, I find them a little too overpowered for the chassis and the consensus from owners is that they're a handful. It may be exciting, but its also dangerous and overwhelming power isn't exactly the point in such a car.

In a daily hack for the masses, driven by people who look at their cars as appliances to commute rather than something to be savoured, every item that helps keep them out of the scenery (and each other) is a good thing. My mum is useless behind the wheel, so I feel safer knowing that she's assisted by a whole alphabet of TLAs.

In a "race" car, well implemented driver aids will always get you point to point quicker. Banning active aerodynamics, launch control, traction control, stability control etc in F1 cars made them slower. If your goal is to be consistently fast over a given distance, the key is to make the car easy to drive as much as outright speed or cornering G's.

Most street car driver aids are too intrusive and heavy handed, but implemented properly (a la F1, or even the R35's whiz-bang transmission) they can ultimately make you quicker. If that's the point of the exercise, anything that makes you quicker should be there.

I also don't regard airbags as a driver aid. It's a safety feature, and as much as possible they should always be present in your car. Saying that we should purposely make cars less safe to reduce overconfidence appeals to my sense of Darwinism, but ultimately seems like a pretty poor reason to put people's lives in danger.

[Willmander]

Rofl for a minute i thought the thread was about the sexually transmitted disease.

You cant compromise safety but I do believe his statement was true.

[Tony de Wonderful]

Rofl for a minute i thought the thread was about the sexually transmitted disease.

You cant compromise safety but I do believe his statement was true.

lol I bet your idea of Driver 'safety' is packing Durex in the glove box.

[mad082]

yeah the brakes are vaccum assisted. and if you ever drive a car without power assisted brakes you will realise just how bad they are and wonder how people raced cars without them. where i used to work had a 1954 (i think) morris minor panel van as a work car. and it was drum all round. sitting at traffic lights on a slight incline you had to wedge your knee under the steering wheel to help you apply as much pressure as possible to stop yourself rolling (handbrake didn't do squat). you could jump on the brakes as hard as you could at 20kmh and not lock up the wheels, even if you pumped the brakes a few times first to build up some pressure. that thing didn't even have sychros in the gearbox with the original gearbox (then got a datsun 1200 motor and box put in), LOL. i kept trying to get the boss to get a 120y disc brake conversion done but he wouldn't.

air-bags i can see the advantage of and have never thought of them as something to make me a better driver. i always see them more as something to help me survive is some twat slams into me.

as for ABS, i have had it kick in before in a few different cars and it can be both good and bad. in a racing situation where you are going into a corner a good driver will be able to prevent major lockup most of the time (will still have the odd lockup). however that is because they have their mind on the job and are focused. however in everyday application if a kid runs out in front of the car or something like that, there is a good chance that you will panic and just jump on the brakes as hard as you can and a large portion of rational thought goes out the window so if the wheels lock up you aren't going to have the idea to let off the brakes a bit to let the wheels roll again to let the brakes do their job properly. in a panic situation you just keep pressing the pedal harder and harder, LOL

[Deano 1]

i like having ABS in my 4x4.... but in my gtr... i love being able to drive the car... watch the v8 supercars or any real racing, they somtimes lock the wheels into corners under heavy braking. not sayin this is a good thing, just sayin that it involes more control and throught to your driving, rather than just standing on the brakes

[madbung]

Drivers aids? nothings more fun than driving a "tradtional" rod, It's like a driving a big go-Kart.

Meh drum brakes are fine when adjusted and maintained correctly, put a booster on and they're as sharp as you'll need.

Valiant ap6 v8's used vented-boosted drums to good effect, so have the many traditional rods I've parked my ass in over the years.

I like em raw on the w/ends and refined during the week.

[UCF10]

driver aids are getting over the top these days abs is a good thing and traction control to an extent but all this esp and the like will take away from peoples ability to drive and if they end up in an older car without 1000 sensors and computers keeping it in line will become a serious crash hazard

[ARTZ]

This here is why racecars and road cars should not mix

Car companies try to put to many things into everyday cars that are made for picking up shopping and kids...there not meant to be racing so why do they need 400hp motors...

people spends thousands of pointless dollars trying to blend the 2 and car companies sit back and laugh as they take our money. and while they brag about having 20kws more than the last model it is usually only to compensate the 50kg of extra weight of all the safety features..cars in the 60s were doing 14 sec 1/4 miles...withough seatbelts

This is why companies like GMC are going under because they have spent to long building dreams instead of realities..And i hate the way holden has sat in the back pocket since the VN..

They way i figure it if you buy a cheap everyday runaround for suburban duties , the money you would save on day to day running costs would leave you with enuf cash to buy a small dedicated race car. More of these would mean more racetracks for enthusiasts to race on.

While everyone is out racing on the steets, all they are doing is giving true enthusiasts a bad name.. I personally am sick of hearing dumbass P-platers doing burnouts over the speed humps in my street every fkn night

Airbags are great ABS is great ESP is great ..Traction control is ghey....

(I still laugh at the girl who told me her traction control didnt work cause she slid out in the wet)

But in a dedicated race car they are pointless...learn how to drive

[GTR-N1]

Even an airbag can create overconfidence...

Sometimes they DO NOT work as they are meant to ! ! !

Consider this:- If you are trying to avoid an accident and you turn away from an object only to hit another,

your arms will cross > the airbag goes off > the bag breaks your radius/ulna. VOILA !

Would I still have one? Sure would. But I'd also keep ^^^ in mind eh?

[Tony de Wonderful]

In a "race" car, well implemented driver aids will always get you point to point quicker. Banning active aerodynamics, launch control, traction control, stability control etc in F1 cars made them slower. If your goal is to be consistently fast over a given distance, the key is to make the car easy to drive as much as outright speed or cornering G's.

Yeah and why were they banned? Answer is safety.

[Tony de Wonderful]

This here is why racecars and road cars should not mix

Car companies try to put to many things into everyday cars that are made for picking up shopping and kids...there not meant to be racing so why do they need 400hp motors...

people spends thousands of pointless dollars trying to blend the 2 and car companies sit back and laugh as they take our money. and while they brag about having 20kws more than the last model it is usually only to compensate the 50kg of extra weight of all the safety features..cars in the 60s were doing 14 sec 1/4 miles...withough seatbelts

Yeah it's a big contradiction. You get more and more safety feature then this on going arms race in power...next years model always has a bit more kws.

If your goal is a safe car then why put 300 kws into a 'family/utility' car? What is it good for? It only make it less safe in a sense.

That old JDM agreement of 250 hp was quite sensible.

[JET200]

If you can drive, they suck

If your like 99.9% of people on the Earth and cant drive, they are good.

[mad082]

Yeah it's a big contradiction. You get more and more safety feature then this on going arms race in power...next years model always has a bit more kws.

If your goal is a safe car then why put 300 kws into a 'family/utility' car? What is it good for? It only make it less safe in a sense.

That old JDM agreement of 250 hp was quite sensible.

sure they are making them more powerful, but they also a few hundred kg heavier than they were a few years back. also they are getting more powerful but also getting more fuel efficient. they sort of go hand in hand. lean the car off a bit and you will make more power.

[Tony de Wonderful]

sure they are making them more powerful, but they also a few hundred kg heavier than they were a few years back. also they are getting more powerful but also getting more fuel efficient. they sort of go hand in hand. lean the car off a bit and you will make more power.

I can't believe that - all thing being equal - that a more powerful engine uses less fuel?!

[mad082]

I can't believe that - all thing being equal - that a more powerful engine uses less fuel?!

then you need to learn more about how power is made and tuning.

take a stock ecu powered skyline and look at the air/fuel ratios. they will be down around 10:1. plug in an aftermarket ecu, copy across the maps, leave the timing the way it is but remove some of the fuel to get an AFR of around 12:1 and you will make more power.

a very basic way to look at it is like this:

if you light a fire then dump 10L of fuel on the fire, the fire will probably go out because it has been smothered before it could burn all the fuel. take the same fire and tip on half a litre of the same fuel and you will get a fireball.

of course with all the advances of technology the newer engines have better designed heads, etc so they flow air better so can make more power for the same amount of airflow and fuel as there is less restriction.

[Birds]

I believe many driver aids these days serve as marketing devices to make the car more appealing than the competition, without actually serving a useful purpose. There's only so much you can put in a car...and now that Aussie cars have caught up with the Euros and Japs in terms of the technology going into a vehicle, the stretch for technological advantage goes out to useless things like voice activated head units, or in the case of the Lexus SC400...being able to choose between hot and cold water for the windscreen washer...

I think the best safety invention has been the airbag and seatbelts...everything else seems to look after bad driving rather than shit happening that isn't necessarily the driver's fault. Traction control and ESC seem to target a situation the driver has gotten themselvs into because they put too much throttle down or didn't acknowledge a slippery road surface. And I definitely agree it instills over-confidence in the driver. Modern cars alone do this though, without added technologies. Better braking performance and more engine power allows people the confidence in their car to pull off stupid manouvres like swerving in and out of lanes and braking at the last second. When you go from a brand new car to driving, say, an old VL Commodore, then you realise you can't pull off the same shit and get away with it. As scathing said, advanced driver training has a similar effect on people. Problem is...you extend the threshold of a car or driver's ability and they'll just push that threshold again. You make a car safely handle 100km/h and it'll be pushed to 101km/h. You make a car able to handle 200km/h safely and it'll be pushed to 201km/h. The difference is that the latter will be all the worse off in an accident.