Fitting whiteline swaybars

[mtopxsecret6]

Hello, people. I have done a search, but to no avail.

Im going to buy front and rear whiteline adjustable 24mm swaybars, What are peoples thoughts on these bars? SHould i just go for the xtra heavy duty non adjustable 24mm bars? What i want is to stiffen and eleminate body roll for easier drifting, also hold wheels to ground to eliminate tramp etc. How hard are they to fit? Can i fit them myself? What work is involved in this? Thanks guys.

[Nismodified]

if your into drifting, i mite suggest u get the adjustable, so u can fiddle with the settings untill u get what you like best.

axle tramp is better solved with some pineapples as far as i know

[2rismo]

get the adjustables...

get the pineapples to fix the tramp...

like he said

Adrian

[Silver-Arrowz]

The kit comes with bolts, bushes and lub oil. Pretty simple fit. Hard bit was getting the old stuff off.

I reckon go the heavy duty if your going to do some track work. Other wise just stick to the standard stuff.

[knore]

how much and where from ?

[Silver-Arrowz]

go to www.whiteline.com.au

That's where I got mine.

[franks]

go to www.whiteline.com.au

That's where I got mine.

non adjustables are a waste if your car isnt a dedicated for track, i've also heard they break other things like links because of their stiffness! i'd definately go for adjustables as it allows you to adjust over time, assuming you keep upgrading your suspension bits like coil overs, castor kit, camber kit etc, to your individual car and personal likes...

word of warning - swaybars alone will definately eliminate bodyroll but you will gain a shitload of understeer! (regardless of the settings ie. hard rear, soft front). you need to compliment the swaybars with castor and camber to get your turn in right, and then have a good set of rubber aswell.

[JimX]

The best thing to do is to speak to the guys at Whiteline. I did, and decided to go for the adjustables based on their advice.

I'm glad I did. I had the front and rear set on the maximum, and I found it too easy to step the rear out around corners. Sure there was less body roll, but my cornering speed was lowered! I loosened them off a notch or 2 and now it's pretty much perfect.

The non adjustables are thicker so I only imagine it would be worse than when I had mine set on the maximum. They would only be good for mirror smooth racetracks I reckon, where you wanted to drift rather than go fast around corners.

[mtopxsecret6]

Thanks for the replys guys.. all good info. Im going to have a chat to fulcrum here in brisbane who supply the whiteline gear. I migt be able to score a full 'pacakage' for the project skyline.

[Sydneykid]

Sorry franks, but I simply don't agree with your post "swaybars alone will definately eliminate bodyroll but you will gain a shitload of understeer". If you have that problem then you chose too big a front bar and too small a rear bar. They need to be balanced and, in addition, a 4wd (GTR or GTST) absolutely needs a different combination of stabiliser bars than a rwd (GTST).

On our GTST circuit race car we run a 27 mm front and 24 mm (or 22 mm, for wet or slippery) rear adjustable Whiteline bars and I can dial up whatever amount of understeer or oversteer I want by adjusting the bars. In comparison, on the GTR we run 24 mm front and 24 mm rear adjustable Whiteline stabilser bars.

Sure the suspension works better if you have all the bits, but each bit is capable or working OK on its own.

Hope that helps

[franks]

sydneykid, can you please elaborate on your point "...in addition, a 4wd (GTR or GTST) absolutely needs a different combination of stabiliser bars than a rwd." ???

i'd be really interested to help out a friend of mine who had whiteline sways fitted to his GTR and is *only* experiencing understeer (hence my point) take a look...

the rear sway bar is on the hardest setting, the front is on a soft setting (unsure how soft though). i guess i suggested this to him coming from a RWD experience, but your comments have made me think of how attessa would effect this?

the suspension is stock GTR setup, running michelin pilot sports and running about 37psi hot in the front. we ran them higher but understeer just got worse!?

imho, a few things which might help reduce this understeer would be to

- play with rear tyre pressures?

- go softer setting on the front?

- change driver???

thoughts? of course this is just using swaybars, as explained, no camber or castor adjustments are allowed since the gear isnt on the car...

in my personal experience and coming from RWD, i had a full whiteline handling pack fitted + rear diff brace running on toyo trampios r1r's which a are a hybrid semi slick and street tyre. handling was pathetic, from a stock setup where i could induce oversteer it went to full understeer!

back to the drawing board, i had fitted a front camber kit (at -1.75 degrees) and set the rear swaybar on the hardest setting - results were pretty good, handling still has a touch of understeer but its predominately nuetral now. tyre pressures help alot running about 36psi hot in the front.

my next time down to wakefield park im going to have the front sway bar put on a softer setting (as i think im on the 2nd hardest atm) and play around with rear tyre pressures....

[Sydneykid]

Hi franks, there are a multitude of possibilities, I will try and answer your questions and add a bit of information dump ..........

The first place to start in curing an imbalance is stabiliser bar adjustment, so going softer on the front and harder on the rear would be a good move.

Tyre pressures, I am not a big fan of using tyre pressures to adjust handling, it introduces a whole pile of other issues, not the least of which is wear. I tune a car’s tyre pressures using a pyrometer, even tyre temperatures across the tread indicates that you are getting the best possible use from that tyre. By using tyre pressures to cure a handling imbalance, you can only make the grip level worse at one end, it is never better than when the whole tyre is operating at the same temperature.

GTR and GTS4's run way less caster than GTST's, this is done to keep the CV angles on the front drive shafts more reasonable. This badly affects their initial turn in. Adding a couple of degrees more positive caster really helps. Adjustable front polyurethane bushes in the radius rods are the go. This also eliminates a big problem, the standard rubber bushes flex heaps under load and wear out fast on GTST's. When you add the dynamic effect of drive, GTR's and GTS4's are even worse. I would be very surprised if just this one upgrade/repair doesn't fix 80% of the understeer problem.

Over the years I have done a number of driver training days and suspension clinics and it never ceases to amaze me how many people charge up to a corner, slam on the brakes, stay off the throttle, rapidly yank on the wheel and then complain about the understeer. This is particularly evident in 4wd cars as they have enough traction to drive out of it. In many cases it is driver technique that results in the understeer and no amount of suspension tuning can eliminate that.

Our 1240 kg R32 GTST has a 56%/44% weight distribution, while the 1480 kg R32 GTR is 62%/38%. While this has to be taken into account, after all the extra weight over the front wheels is substantial, too many people run way too high a spring rate in the front of GTR's (and GTS4's). I have seen many Japanese spring kits that have the same rear spring rate in GTST's and GTR's, but a 30% higher front spring rate for GTR's.

Most radial tyres "like" a maximum spring rate around 350 lbs per inch at the tyre . The way I work out a good starting point is to have 350 lbs in the front spring and then using the weight distribution work out the rear. So in a GTST, if 350 lbs is 56%, then 44% is 235 lbs, which is a good place to start. The more power the car has the lower rear spring rate you have to use to overcome the power oversteer tendencies.

Unfortunately in a GTR (and other 4wd's) this is not the case. So if the front spring rate is 350 lbs (62%), then 38% would be 215 lbs which is, in my experience, way too low. You actually need a rear rate higher than a rwd, so I modify the formula by adding 20% to the rear rate, thus 215 lbs + 20% = 260 lbs. With 4wd you don't have the same problem with power on oversteer, so the higher spring rate can easily be tolerated.

Remembering that this is the spring rate at the tyre, not the rate of the spring itself, there are movement and leverage ratios to be considered when choosing the rate of the spring itself.

I have measured a number of Japanese suspension kits with front spring rates over 500 lbs, which is too high for track use with radial tyres, on its own. Adding any sort of larger front stabiliser bar just makes this worse.

So my strongest suggestion would be to check the spring rates in the cars, it would be my next port of call after adjusting the stabiliser bars and fixing the caster problem.

Let me see, did I answer your questions…..

Stabiliser bar rate = check

Tyre pressure = check

Driver change = check

Hope that helps

[franks]

Helps quite alot! thanks for the info sydneydude!

most of your detail on the sping rates stuff went over my head, but i get what you're coming from

in summary though, you say caster will eliminate most of the understeer - you say 80%?

are you thus suggesting that only 20% of this problem can be fixed by perhaps driver technique and sway bar settings?

[Sydneykid]

Hi franks, suggestions follow your questions...

"caster will eliminate most of the understeer - you say 80%"

What I meant was, in 80% of the cases (4 out of 5 cars) adding as much caster as you can will eliminate the turn in understeer problem. By "turn in", I mean from the point of starting the turn almost to the apex of the corner. A softer front stabiliser bar setting also helps this.

Mid corner understeer (apex to exit) is fixed by more front negative camber and/or a stronger rear bar setting.

Exit understeer is very rare (in a non front wheel drive car anyway) and is fixed by using more power. Only kidding, the harder rear bar, softer front bar and more negative camber help there as well.

Nothing will totally overcome understeer caused by an excessive front spring rate, other than changing to softer springs of course.

Hope that helps

[franks]

oh yeah this helps a whole lot!

muchly appreciated, will test some of this theory out. as i was saying before my friend has only swaybars, his initial turn to apex is ok, its more from apex to exit which is bothersome....

personally, i'm going to go 1 softer on my front swaybar setting - i have an inkling that after this last adjustment my suspension will be perfect...(for my needs anyways ) .... touch wood.