Manifold Insulators

[BrianV8]

.....

[juggernaut1]

...one step further....consider the LS engine where the whole intake manifold is plastic...not to mention other cars with plastic intake manifolds these days........so the whole manifold becomes an isolater, which is clearly the better way to go.

Remember the old skool v8's that used to use phenolic spacers between the carby and intake manifold to reduce heat soak to prevent the fuel in the fuel bowl from boiling.

Edited October 5, 2009 by juggernaut1

[mad082]

do you still need to use a gasket with these spacers? or are they a gasket replacement? cause if you still need to use a gasket which you have to buy extra then you would need 2 gaskets plus the kit, so you would be looking at around $250 for the setup which may not give you any power increase.

also if it is making the air more dense, and thus giving you more power, wouldn't it also be affecting the AFR, so if you were to install these on a tuned car you would need to get it retuned to make sure it wasn't too lean.

my understanding with most of these type of products is that they are trying to create a leaner mixture to get more power, which isn't always a good thing.

[W0rp3D]

do you still need to use a gasket with these spacers? or are they a gasket replacement? cause if you still need to use a gasket which you have to buy extra then you would need 2 gaskets plus the kit, so you would be looking at around $250 for the setup which may not give you any power increase.

also if it is making the air more dense, and thus giving you more power, wouldn't it also be affecting the AFR, so if you were to install these on a tuned car you would need to get it retuned to make sure it wasn't too lean.

my understanding with most of these type of products is that they are trying to create a leaner mixture to get more power, which isn't always a good thing.

I believe you use these on there own as a gasket.

As for afr's that answer is here http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/Th...ss-t220913.html different thing but same effects.

[R31Nismoid]

Temp difference isn't enough to dramatically alter AFR's, this is street car's we are talking about so a couple of degree's either way would be less than a cool winters day vs a warm summer one.

All cars/tunes should have been tuned to allow for such variance if using aftermarket ECU's and so on anyway.

As for the price, ring Nissan direct with someone that has a trade account, you'll often be surprised by the price - i have been on a number of items now and i always check first before looking elsewhere.

The one talked about here or the factory gasket? price quoted from kudos on the factory gasket is $85.80 the one talked about here was $8x from status tuning (different brand tho).

Also the 30 degrees mentioned earlier by me was not for the gasket, it was in relation to removing the water line from the tb, there is a thread on it in diy, its near the top.

30 degree's to the surface of the manifold? Or the actual measured air temp? They both differ.

Remember the pressurised air/intake air isn't exactly going into the motor at a leisurely pace, so it's not going to absorb massive degree's of temp after the I/C in motion.

You would see more benefits @ idle but how useful are they to most people? All comes down to how much you can justify for a street car.

If 4-6 degree's to you (whilst being virtually immeasurable), makes you feel like there is a worthwhile gain achieved, then go for it.

[W0rp3D]

As for the price, ring Nissan direct with someone that has a trade account, you'll often be surprised by the price - i have been on a number of items now and i always check first before looking elsewhere.

I dont know anyone with a trade account at nissan so i will have to pay full price, would be nice though as i also have to by cam cover gaskets $88 and exhaust manifold gasket $120.

[juggernaut1]

You would see more benefits @ idle but how useful are they to most people? All comes down to how much you can justify for a street car.

If 4-6 degree's to you (whilst being virtually immeasurable), makes you feel like there is a worthwhile gain achieved, then go for it.

Logically, it will be of most benefit to a street car wouldn't it?

Street cars spend a fair bit of the time idling then accelerating away from traffic lights, stops signs etc where most heat soak occurs and air speed is at its lowest and no airflow through the cooler......hence the air is more susceptable to grabbing heat and therefore the greatest benefit is acheived at these times.

Whether its worthwhile depends on your personal cost/benefit analysis. But previously you suggested 2 degrees and 10 hp was insignificant for a street car, ................but using your figures would potentially suggest....4 degrees = possibly 20 hp and 6 degrees = possibly 30 hp. Now that means potentially 30 hp for $80 - $100 odd dollars.

Its the same philosophy as a cold air intake.....most benefit when idling when underbonnet temps are highest and diminishing effect at speed.

Edited October 5, 2009 by juggernaut1

[R31Nismoid]

Depends how much logic you want to apply it.

On face value, you are right, dig deeper and put more thought in - i don't think so.

You are talking 4-6 degree's say.

How much is that worth in HP? Is it even useful in a heat soak situation when you have the following

Turbo

I/C

I/C piping

All massively heat soaked which are going to give you a much greater effect then the 5% that the plenum makes up in terms of air travel time/distance (5% is a guess, plenum isnt that big of a part in the whole length)

I could go on, but I'm sure others probably see as i do, the fact there are SO many other influencing factors that could be tended too first.

eg:

adding waterspray to the I/C, it would be cheaper/easier/faster to do that and you would arguably get more of a gain in heat soak situations.

Wrapping all the I/C piping

making up better turbo heat shields to reduce under bonnet temps

Would you see a gain from doing all those things? Yes. Would you notice it? Hard to say, lot of time and effort on a gamble. Could be more a placebo style of gain and something that is actually real.

So the list could go on, you could easily get to $500 in these types of things - more even! And then that $500 could have purchased you a better turbo, what is the winner? the better turbo.

[gotRICE?]

Personally i think people are looking waaaaay to deep into this, of course bar Nismoid.

Street cars spend a fair bit of the time idling then accelerating away from traffic lights, stops signs etc where most heat soak occurs and air speed is at its lowest and no airflow through the cooler......hence the air is more susceptable to grabbing heat and therefore the greatest benefit is acheived at these times.

So what exactly is lowering the intake temp 7'C at idle going to achieve in a street driven car? A .000000001 second decrease in time to the next set of traffic lights?

Im with Nismoid. Unless its a fully blown race car where every single bit of HP counts, its a waste of time.

(that and of course if the OEM gasket was a similar price, then why not..)

And also to add to what Nismoid said about the IC sprayer, theres a good test on them somewhere online where an Aussie guy did intake temp readings on a car. The amount of full throttle boosting you need to see and increase in intake temp on the street is phenomonal. Like, 20 seconds plus. And if in 13.5 seconds, a quick GTSt can reach 160-170km/h, how quick are you really gonna go?

And with the sprayer. The car needs to be moving slow enough for the water to cool and absorb some heat from the IC core before your on the throttle again, or its just squirting water for no reason. Hence why when in "Auto" mode, Evo sprayers only spray when the brake pedals pushed. Holding the sprayer down on the back straight is doing absolutely nothing. And if you do it on the drag strip, you should be shot.

Edited October 5, 2009 by gotRICE?

[juggernaut1]

Depends how much logic you want to apply it.

On face value, you are right, dig deeper and put more thought in - i don't think so.

You are talking 4-6 degree's say.

How much is that worth in HP? Is it even useful in a heat soak situation when you have the following

Turbo

I/C

I/C piping

All massively heat soaked which are going to give you a much greater effect then the 5% that the plenum makes up in terms of air travel time/distance (5% is a guess, plenum isnt that big of a part in the whole length)

Umm......actually you mentioned the 4 -6 degree's....I just quoted you. You also suggested 2 degrees is worth 10 hp in one of your previous posts........4 - 6 degrees cooler must result in more hp ...no....are you doing a backflip on what you previously said?

As for your I/C and post I/C piping getting massively heatsoaked maybe you should invest in a decent cooler.

The plenum is the hottest part of the post cooler intake system and it is where the air is travelling at its slowest before it enters the runners and then the intake ports....especially in a street car.

Edited October 5, 2009 by juggernaut1

[R31Nismoid]

Oh dear - it is called a figure of speech, you obviously let that one fly past. It was an example using numbers to fit the point for now.

Anyway, I never said my cooler piping/IC had heat soak, I'm talking in general here or did you fail to miss that point as well?

The plenum is the hottest part post cooler indeed, but it is also the part the air spends the least amount of time in by the same token out of the entire system.

Which is the lesser of two evils? Having cooler air going into the I/C or hotter air but less radiant heat being transferred @ the plenum side.

Actually, more to the point, how much of a temp increase would the radiant plenum heat have on the air for the brief period the air is even there?

Without testing and proof no-one can say for or against.

Now - this is an example so you don't miss the point - how much say... would 1ltr of air take to be heated radiantly in half a second from 35 degrees?

These are the types of questions and answers that need to be found before anyone can say things like this are useful.

Perhaps there is someone out there that has performed such testing on RB's, would be interesting to hear/see if it is around... but until such a time claiming there is a reasonable gain/benefit for the effort is ultimately unproven.

[juggernaut1]

Oh dear - it is called a figure of speech, you obviously let that one fly past. It was an example using numbers to fit the point for now.

Anyway, I never said my cooler piping/IC had heat soak, I'm talking in general here or did you fail to miss that point as well?

OK.....so everything you said was dribble.....yeah I missed that point......I thought this was a technical forum.

Anyway here you go champ...I did some digging around and found this:

[R31Nismoid]

what model skyline and RB was this?

[R31Nismoid]

And if you had this data, why take two pages to post it?

If you had technical info to help the thread, just sitting there and waiting achieves nothing. We are all here to learn, everyone of us.

Holding out to bait, trap, make people look silly is rather childish

[Dorifta]

OK.....so everything you said was dribble.....yeah I missed that point......I thought this was a technical forum.

Anyway here you go champ...I did some digging around and found this:

Any idea where this came from

[juggernaut1]

And if you had this data, why take two pages to post it?

If you had technical info to help the thread, just sitting there and waiting achieves nothing. We are all here to learn, everyone of us.

Holding out to bait, trap, make people look silly is rather childish

Why the accusations and inuendo Nismoid.....this is SAU not Facebook?

Despite your accusations, and I find it funny that I even have to justify myself to you, but I wasn't holding back on any info....after my last post I searched the net and found this and promptly posted it.

From memory I also recall Trent (URAS) posting up comments in another thread on this forum where he made the comment he was able to add a couple of more degrees of timing after he installed such a spacer.....thought I should mention it as I could be accused of holding that back too.

Edited October 5, 2009 by juggernaut1

[juggernaut1]

Any idea where this came from

Autospeed.

Edited October 5, 2009 by juggernaut1

[R31Nismoid]

Why the accusations and inuendo Nismoid.....this is SAU not Facebook?

Despite your accusations, I wasn't holding back on any info....after my last post I searched the net and found this and promptly posted it.

From memory I also recall Trent (URAS) posting up comments in another thread on this forum where he made the comment he was able to add a couple of more degrees of timing after he installed such a spacer.....thought I should mention it as I could be accused of holding that back too.

Well you clearly knew something existed.

So do you know what car? Motor or anything else?

Perhaps a link to the autospeed article?

[juggernaut1]

The following is a quote from Trent in a previous thread on this topic:

heres the latest dyno i will post up a table later comparing the two datalogs of inlet temp and timing.

with the new gaskets inlet temps were reduced by a substantial amount, to the point that the turbo outlet pipes would were so hot they would scald and the plenum was COOL to touch after 21 runs......... if you dont believe me check our the run number on the dyno sheet

The cooler charge allowed us to dial in another 3-5 degrees of peak timing throughout the peak torque and top end IGN map areas.

Attached thumbnail(s) Reduced 88% 1228 x 868 (124.36K)//

[R31Nismoid]

^ in a tight engine bay'd S13 race car as opposed to a street skyline

Suppose you wouldn't link the thread/full posts to save time either?

I've found the article from Autospeed either way just to go through it some more for those wondering where it came from, what else is associated.

http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/A_110474/article.html

I'm not saying i am not a believer just yet, although Autospeed I've always taken their articles with a bit of 'interpretation required' as with most print articles.

At first glance that graph is really good.

But lets go a bit further into it, 30F degree drops are pretty damning! Graph is in F, so the gap of 30F is actually 16C in our terms.

So its a Mazda 2.5KL series N/A motor.

A motor that has the intake manifold sitting directly above hot bits. As opposed to the side like an RB, the opposite side of the engine bay.

No boost/pressure, turbo, I/C to take into account either.

Unknown levels of under bonnet temps to begin with. Skyline or Mazda higher? Who knows.

So temp aside, there was no proof as to whether or not the car actually had anymore power... being it wasn't even tested on a dyno, rather a "home dyno"...

According to the plots, I gained approximately 7hp and 11 ft-lbs of torque using the spacers over the majority of the power curve. I can make no claims as to the accuracy of these results

You'd think with 30 degrees drop there would have been some level of gain?

Even if we take the 7hp (5kw) is well, nothing interesting and pretty much what i said earlier... an amount you would never be able to notice or quantify.

So any gain would be lesser again on a RB by basis of percentage, being a 7hp increase on 160hp is 4%

Which on your typical RB takes you from 270rwhp to 280rwhp. Not as exciting as i would have hoped for the effort one is going too.

Now i can appreciate it is a fairly broad swing to apply the 4% to both cars, one might be more, one might be less... Hell Autospeeds article could be wrong as per their own disclaimer.

Who will know without actual testing on Skylines/RB's which is pretty much the topic at hand here.

I think however, we are back to the barely noticeable/tangible gains point again for a street car. Was a good link and article to read.

However i am not so easily convinced, and i never have been.

Is it worth the time unless you have to replace the gasket as W0rp3D has to do? I mean while it is off, you might as well right? Even if there isn't a noticeable gain if the gasket is cheaper, hell i would as well simply based on price.

I'll drop an email to Trent and see if he has any more examples/testing and so on, see if we cant get some more info flowing to see if this is a worthwhile mission for the average punter