Duty Of Care With A Tuner And Your Motor?

[Rolls]

What sort of duty of care would you expect from a workshop tuning your car? Eg you take your car in to get tuned and you expect to get it back with a better tune. Lets say they ramp up the ignition and dont listen for knock and pop your motor. You obviously cannot prove that they did this and they can blame it on a poorly made motor etc.

What sort of liability do they have and what would be reasonable to request when taking a car in for a tune so that you aren't left with a popped motor and no reimbursement? I mean lets say you do the obvious things like looking for a reputable workshop with no known horror stories, inquire into what sort of knock detection they use and be insistent on a safe street tune however your motor still goes pop. Is there any legal course of action that could leave you with some form of reimbursement, or are you basically shit out of luck?

I have no reason not to trust the workshop I am going to but I would like be as cautious as possible, not to mention I would love to learn more about the tuning process so I will ask if I can hang around for some of it. Are tuners likely to go along with this?

[GTR-N1]

I don't have any qualifications in law - and yet, I'm aware (being a small businessman) that our society is becoming more litigious, and it's more likely to complain to the proprietor, small claims, fair trading & ACCC than ever. I personally have to keep up high levels of insurance in public liability, professional liability, stock & fittings etc.

Back to your thread, if the consumer really did know his/her rights, one could and should ask the tuner for proof of membership with the MTA and sight current proof of 'paid-up' liability insurance of a patron's car whilst on site (with terms and conditions in simple English).

I must admit that on occasions, I have only asked for verbal acknowledgment over this matter - and never asked for those pieces of paper. Hell, I don't even know what the MTA Code of Ethics are and whether it's just a toothless tiger. MTA's Code of Ethics is on http://www.mtansw.com.au/about.php

As a devil's advocate, I also wonder if there has ever been an owner of a sh/tbox out there who has (with his own clandestine intent) taken his wheels to a tuner only to try and sue the socks off him later on.

[Duncan]

As a devil's advocate, I also wonder if there has ever been an owner of a sh/tbox out there who has (with his own clandestine intent) taken his wheels to a tuner only to try and sue the socks off him later on.

and that is where the whole issue gets complex. unless they done the whole build on a car, how can you prove what a tuner did caused a problem?

how many businesses could afford to run a car up on a dyno (say $50) with the risk of a $5,000 rebuild if something goes wrong....even if 1 car in 100 goes wrong on those odds they would not make a cent....and I guess it happens more often than 1 in 100...

all you can do is go somewhere well recommended - don't worry about 1 or 2 people who've had a problem because every workshop has had issues at sometimes - what you need is a feeling that they are genuine and will show due care.

[GTR-N1]

^^^ Yup

[Birds]

Yeah I don't know the exact laws but tuning isn't a quoted repair with a guarantee to back it up...you might as well be fanging your car around a racetrack for the day - it's basically the same thing. As was highlighted above, it's not so much 'how do you prove they were at fault?', it's 'how do you prove it wasn't your engine on its last legs?'. Tuners have no keen interest in pushing your car to the absolute limit...they don't want the trouble and the intelligent ones will only safe tune a road car anyway unless you give express permission to go nuts on it.

If they did the build on a forged engine you might have a leg to stand on if something went wrong, but even then the tuning part of things seems a bit grey to me.

[Greekos]

the tuner should know whats going on with your motor when its on the dyno, for example tuner puts car on dyno notices something is wrong with the motor, tuner then pulls car off dyno and informs customer of problem. that what a good tuner should do a bad tuner would try an tune around the problem.

personal experience when i bought my car it has just been tuned by a quality workshop with a well established name in Canberra, problem was my car had a dodgy fuel pump which would cause AFR's to skyrocket once boost was being made that tuner then removed heaps of ignition and turned the knock light off. once i received my car i took it to my tuner who knows imports inside out he placed my car on the dyno found the problem caused by the previous tuner. he made 3 runs in shoot out mode to confirm the crazy AFR's and retarded ignition he pulled the car off the dyno made no charge.

he fixed the fuel pump which caused the previous motor to fail and tuned the car and charged me for the new fuel pump and dyno time that was spent tuning. he also rang the other workshop and asked why they had tuned the car the way the had. i have done 40k since my tuner fixed the car and have never had a problem in regrads to the motor running twice the factory power (touch wood).

in the end any GOOD tuner should know what going on with your engine if the motor is'nt in good condition it shouldn't be anywhere near a dyno.

[Rolls]

in the end any GOOD tuner should know what going on with your engine if the motor is'nt in good condition it shouldn't be anywhere near a dyno.

And that is the major problem, how do you determine a good tuner from a bad? Most people don't have the knowledge to tell themselves and a tuner certainly isn't going to say 'Im an average tuner'.

I'm really up in the air about who I should get in SA to tune my car.

[timsr33]

the tuner i use makes you sign a waver of liabilty if he didnt do the work

but i still wouldnt ever take my car to any one else ive had major problems with outher tuners inculding two blown motors a blown gearbox and a slipping clutch

one tryed to charge me for a tow truck after he broken the gear box doing burnouts

you should be able to tell if a tuner is any good just by talking to him

[Birds]

There aren't always telltale signs of an engine about to go. It could be anything from a belt snapping to a pump collapsing, or a rod shooting through the side of the block.

In the end you are getting someone to modify your engine to do what it wasn't intended to do. Shit can happen sometimes...that's the risk you take and the consequences that go with it. No different to smacking your car into a wall or blowing an engine in a race. Why do people think tuning should be such a safe endeavour? Even a dyno day can send you home with a broken car.

[N I B]

One problem we see often is some guys mate becomes a Dyno tuner over night and all his mates get on the net saying how good he is but in reality he is learning on your car.

Find someone thats been in business for a long time.

[HEKT1K]

there is certainly a duty of care owed by tuners when you leave your car with them - they can't just charge you money to tinker with your car and say, oh well if it lets go it's not our fault.

yes they are making the car more powerful, making it do things it wasn't built to do etc, but that shouldn't excuse them of liability - what about LPG conversion places, they use dynos to tune cars - do they not have a duty of care to their customers either?

OP, i think it's best if you discuss these issues with your chosen tuner before any work is done, just so he knows you're not willing to lay down and cop it if he pops your motor.

[GTR-N1]

And that is the major problem, how do you determine a good tuner from a bad?

^^^Well said in the post above Ric - spoken like a true LL.B.

As Ric mentioned above, you DO TALK to your tuner or upgrader BUT...

the obligation is on YOU to ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS too!!!

For instance, go to TUNER A, B & C, and prepare your list of Qs beforehand no matter how naive they might seem!

Culturally, people on the east and west coast of USA + west coast of Canada are very upfront about asking the most simple Qs.

At the end of seminars that I've had the privilege of speaking at, these dudes seem to have collected more jigsaw puzzle pieces than most.

So TUNER A runs you through a sequence of what he intends to do on your car and then explains why.

TUNERs B & C do the same.

Then you choose between them.

If you're concerned about taking too much of the TUNER's time, you start with a LEADING QUESTION!

Do you know what a LEADING Q is?

It's used a) to make your gutsy Qs softer and less intimidating b) when you have an ulterior motive c) to remove resistance from the person you talk to, and d) buy a more appropriate time to talk in case he's busy.

So the LEADING Q I'd ask is, "When's the best time Mr.......... to run past me what you'd do with my car to make it............."

Hope this helps.

[Birds]

there is certainly a duty of care owed by tuners when you leave your car with them - they can't just charge you money to tinker with your car and say, oh well if it lets go it's not our fault.

yes they are making the car more powerful, making it do things it wasn't built to do etc, but that shouldn't excuse them of liability - what about LPG conversion places, they use dynos to tune cars - do they not have a duty of care to their customers either?

OP, i think it's best if you discuss these issues with your chosen tuner before any work is done, just so he knows you're not willing to lay down and cop it if he pops your motor.

Oh yes they can. The thing is they try not to...because it's not in the interest of the tuner to blow up an engine and deal with a small claims case. A good tuner will always try to tune the car safe without pushing the limits of it. The only extent to which they are liable is if you can prove some sort of negligence on their behalf as a tuner - this is VERY hard to do...just look at previous cases of it happening. But when you hand them the keys you're giving them permission to screw with your car outside of what it was intended for...it's not the same as being in for repairs at a mechanical workshop.

Why shouldn't it excuse them of liability? They're playing with a ticking time bomb. How can you expect tuners to survive let alone make money if they have to fork out for everytime someone gives them an engine on its last legs? Not to mention the demographics of the clientele, being for most part the same people who tend to thrash their cars. These are risks the customer is supposed to be aware of before handing their keys over to a tuner. Why do you think it can be a completely safe practice free of f*** up? It can't be.

Also, LPG conversion places don't use dynos to tune cars. Unless you are investing in liquid injection or your car had issues getting it to run on gas it won't go near a dyno. Some parts are replaced as prerequisite for installation e.g. spark plugs/leads. Others can fail just because of the installation and it's not the installer's fault...oxygen sensors for example need to be in better condition to work with gas than they do with petrol. Again, the clientele for this business...mostly mid 90's cars and many have high mileage...all time bombs waiting for parts to fail. If they are a qualified installer you won't have a leg to stand on unless you can prove their negligence in the matter.

As you say the best thing you can do is ask your tuner questions to ascertain whether they are confident in their abilities and will take every precaution they can to prevent engine damage.