Photos: The Importance Of Only Running Quality Wheels On Your Car (even If It's "only A Daily Driver")

[TheTunersGroup]

An incredible example of the strength of high quality forged wheels ...

Hi All,

We're well known for stressing the fact that only fitting high quality wheels is absolutely vital if you do any track work in your car, and is just as important on a street car or daily driver.

Japanese manufacturer Rays Engineering makes some of the highest quality and strongest wheels in the world.

This photo was posted this week on one of the forums we hang out on, of a Rays Engineering forged wheel which despite the enormous forces involved survived an enormous crash in one piece and the person who took the photos said that it "remains intact and there are no signs of cracks". The driver who took the photos has given us permission to repost them.

If you ever needed convincing of what we have been saying for years about how strong a quality forged wheel can be, and how well high quality forged wheels can resist cracking even in extreme situations, these photos are the proof.

The person who took these photos wrote ...

"This rim went off the track at over 160km/h, hit an embankment and smacked into a wall. Although it's a write off, the rim remains intact and there are no signs of cracks, just bent and warped.

A good testament on how well a forged rim can handle extreme forces."

The way the wheel in the photo stood up to the extreme forces involved and survived in one piece with apparently no signs of cracking is incredible.

- The Tuners Group

[GTR-N1]

RE30 took quite a pounding at over 100mph ie. nice to be able to have faith in your (QUALITY) wheels, yes.

[Duncan]

well....since this is in a discussion forum and is therefore not just an ad.....

I totally disagree with the detailed research behind your statement and the conclusion you draw.

Yes I have seen some rims break at race tracks over the years, but they have almost always been of an obviously compromised design (eg very thin spoke and big offset).

The rim in the photo above is screwed. I am 99% sure that the tyre lost it's seal and deflated when the accident happened if it really was 160klm/h, and I guarantee the control arms were bent or broken preventing the car from driving off anyway.

The rims on this car are a cast wheel in a similar style to ray's:

http://www.hgeconsulting.com.au/targa04.wmv.

The rear rim was damaged in the same sort of location as the one above. Yes it cracked not bended, and yes the tyre delated. But obviously the car was not about to drive anywhere after a crash like that. The other 3 rims went onto another 4 years of racing, plus another 2 targa tasmanias without incident. All 3 rims (plus their new mate) then fell down a cliff at Targa 07 rolling 6 time on the way down. Although most of the control arms were bent all 4 wheels survived.

I have run the same style of cast rim on my race car for 5 years (and bought them second hand so god knows what had been done to them before I got them). In this time we have had offs from the track, including at 180 in turn 1 at eastern creek, banged wheels with other cars, and had an off at targa at over 140 into the scenery when the castor rod broke. These cast wheels did not fail due to any of these incidents and I am still using them today.

In my previous racing the whole field of single make cars run local cast rims from "speedy". I never saw a wheel failure on any of them despite extremely hard use over ripple strips, offs, into other cars etc. I did see whole hubs shear off cars (right Mark lol!) but never a wheel failure. I use a set of the same design wheels in a larger size on my race car, and the BSM GTR (NSW Production car champs, NSW IPRA champs, Aus IPRA champs) run the same wheels.

Finally...bent wheels are a real problem. Once a wheel is bent it should be discarded due to the damage to the strength of the wheel, but an owner might be tempted to just put up with it if they paid $2k a rim instead of $1k a set.

Cast rims are not dangerous, and forged rims are not safe. It comes down to the design of the wheel, and how hard you are going to hit it.

[JAS-25T]

..........and had an off at targa at over 140 into the scenery when the castor rod broke.......

sure that wasn't a loose wheel nut or two?

lol

[Tony de Wonderful]

Finally...bent wheels are a real problem.

Right and cast wheels which shatter/break instead of yielding aren't a problem?

I think the point is one could envisage a marginal situation where the weaker cast rim broke and the forged one only yielded/bent. Which car now has more loss of potential control? Granted maybe in 99% of hard offs/crashes this is not a factor that could make any difference but still it is a slight safety advantage nevertheless.

[R34GT-T]

at the end of the day they are no airbags...

warp / bend / crack / whatever once you impact something the last thing you need to know is are the wheels okay!!

if the wheel you use is up to automotive standards then what else is there...

[saliya]

In my previous racing the whole field of single make cars run local cast rims from "speedy". I never saw a wheel failure on any of them despite extremely hard use over ripple strips, offs, into other cars etc. I did see whole hubs shear off cars (right Mark lol!) but never a wheel failure. I use a set of the same design wheels in a larger size on my race car, and the BSM GTR (NSW Production car champs, NSW IPRA champs, Aus IPRA champs) run the same wheels.

You're talking about the Holotype-Rs, right? I purchased a set of these for my track tyres a few years ago.

The manufacturer replaced one of these wheels for me as a result of a large crack manifesting itself right across one spoke just off the hub;

it had _not_ been hit, and the crack went from the inside to the outside. Basically, one spoke (out of 5) was "disconnected".

The local tyre place said they'd never seen anything like it; and the fact that the manufacturer simply sent a new one 2 days after they received the original suggested to them that the manufacturer accepted responsibility. To quote them:

"people try to get replacement wheels all the time; and _that_ (manufacturer replacement) never happens". No paperwork; no formal response; just a new wheel a few days later.

Now the other 3 (and the replacement) have been doing fine for the last few years. Doesn't stop me checking them all the time.

Cast rims are not dangerous, and forged rims are not safe. It comes down to the design of the wheel, and how hard you are going to hit it.

... and the QC of the original manufacturing process.

Regards,

Saliya

[R31Nismoid]

Another wheel scaremongering thread... will they ever end?

Duncan - Couldn't agree more.

[VB-]

by the time you hit something hard enough, and in such a way to damage a wheel like that (whether it be a cheapy or not) you must be a real shit situation and the structural integrity of the rim would be your last concern, normally your that far gone, it doesnt make a difference. all you can do is clench your arsehole tight enough to cut fishing line and hope for the best

[smiley513]

okay we see why you shouldnt buy forged rims but how do we know if they are forged??? are there special ways to find out if they are???

[TheTunersGroup]

okay we see why you shouldnt buy forged rims but how do we know if they are forged??? are there special ways to find out if they are???

Hi Smiley,

We are not saying in any way that people should not buy wheels that are manufactured by metal forging.

These photos are an example of why people should run high quality wheels like Rays Engineering wheels. The way the wheel in the photo stood up to the extreme forces involved and survived in one piece with apparently no signs of cracking is incredible.

As it says above "If you ever needed convincing of what we have been saying for years about how strong a quality forged wheel can be, and how well high quality forged wheels can resist cracking even in extreme situations, these photos are the proof."

As the quote from the person who took the photos says ...

"This rim went off the track at over 160km/h, hit an embankment and smacked into a wall. Although it's a write off, the rim remains intact and there are no signs of cracks, just bent and warped.

A good testament on how well a forged rim can handle extreme forces."

There is a very good reason that manufacturers like Porsche use forged wheels like the classic Fuchs forged wheels seen on 911's for many years, and why the factory wheels on the R35 GT-R are forged wheels made by Rays Engineering.

- The Tuners Group

[R31Nismoid]

It's also a reason those two cares are worth 6 figures.

[smiley513]

Hi Smiley,

We are not saying in any way that people should not buy wheels that are manufactured by metal forging.

These photos are an example of why people should run high quality wheels like Rays Engineering wheels.

i understood what you said before.....and i was just wondering on how i can find out if the rims are forged...and are there any signs i should look for??

[TheTunersGroup]

i understood what you said before.....and i was just wondering on how i can find out if the rims are forged...and are there any signs i should look for??

Hi smiley,

The key is to research wheels thoroughly if you are looking for forged wheels, and to make sure that the wheels are the genuine, real deal product.

There is a very interesting PDF here which talks about the differences between casting and forging ...

http://www.esi-group.com/products/casting/...tips/eTip16.pdf

Here is some more info about casting vs forging ...

CASTING METALS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting reads ...

"Casting is a manufacturing process by which a liquid material is (usually) poured into a mold, which contains a hollow cavity of the desired shape, and then allowed to solidify. The solid casting is then ejected or broken out to complete the process."

http://www.gmaccessorydealer.com/wheels/forgedversuscast.asp

reads ...

"The quality of cast wheels varies dramatically, depending on process, and sometimes on variables beyond the control of the manufacturer, such as ambient temperature or even humidity ...

Castings tend to be porous -- some carburetors actually leaked fuel through the metal, with no crack or visible flaw present. Porosity is bad, because it means there are places where the metal isn't in direct contact with more metal on all sides.

Voids, which tend to form in the spaces between crystals (a chicken and egg situation), are where cracks begin.

Larger, chunky grains may beget larger voids, and cracks along crystal boundaries will have farther to travel. All these points mean that cast wheels must contain more metal to achieve an acceptable strength, and are thus heavier."

Here is a photo of air bubbles within a cast part (in this case a cast golf club head) ...

Rays Engineering in Japan has developed their own highly advanced casting process with fine crystals which aims to overcome some of the issues of traditional casting methods. More info on that process can be found at the video at the end of this post.

FORGING METALS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging reads ...

"In modern times, industrial forging is done either with presses or with hammers powered by compressed air, electricity, hydraulics or steam. These hammers are large, having reciprocating weights in the thousands of pounds ...

Forging results in metal that is stronger than cast or machined metal parts. This stems from the grain flow caused through forging. As the metal is pounded the grains deform to follow the shape of the part, thus the grains are unbroken throughout the part. Some modern parts take advantage of this for a high strength-to-weight ratio."

Here is a diagram of that process ...

Here are some diagrams of a metal part (shown in red) being made using open die forging ...

http://www.scotforge.com/sf_facts_forgingadv.htm

has some diagrams showing the differences in grain flow between forged, machined and cast parts.

That page reads ...

"Forged Bar:

Directional alignment through the forging process has been deliberately oriented in a direction requiring maximum strength. This also yields ductility and resistance to impact and fatigue.

Machined Bar:

Unidirectional grain flow has been cut when changing contour, exposing grain ends. This renders the material more liable to fatigue and more sensitive to stress corrosion cracking.

Cast Bar:

No grain flow or directional strength is achieved through the casting process.

http://www.scotforge.com/sf_facts_companalysis.htm

reads ...

"When Compared to Machined Bar, Open Die and Rolled Ring Forged Metal Parts Deliver:

- Contoured grain flow yielding greater impact and directional strength

- Cost savings in material and reduction of waste

- Less machining and longer tool life

- Broader material options and size ranges

When Compared to Castings, Open Die and Rolled Ring Forged Metal Parts Deliver:

- Directional grain flow and superior final part strength

- Structural integrity and product reliability

- Reduced process control and inspection requirements

- More predictable response to heat treating"

To understand forging's effect on metals in visual terms, take a look at this very high resolution photo of a scan of a sectioned, forged conrod that has been etched to show grain flow.

To take this photo, they cut a forged connecting rod in half, then etched it to highlight the grain flow ...

Here's a low resolution preview photo:

To view the grain structure in high resolution, click on this link ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...edSection-s.jpg

Looking at the high resolution photo, notice how the grains in the metal are very tightly packed, and they are aligned with the shape and curves of the connecting rod.

This tight density of the grains, and the alignment of the grains, is what gives forged parts their strength.

http://www.gmaccessorydealer.com/wheels/forgedversuscast.asp

reads ...

"Forged wheels take advantage of what happens when metal is cold worked. Cold working doesn't necessarily mean you'd want to touch the materials while they're in process, it means the procedures are done at a temperature below the point where the metal starts to melt and regrow a new crystal structure ...

Forging also changes the shape and alignment of the crystal structure. When molten metal solidifies, its grain structure is non-directional, amorphous, grains in the sense of "grains" of sand.

As metal is forged, these grains are stretched in the direction of deformation, making them more like the "grain" of wood. The metal is formed so the grain goes in the directions where strength is needed most.

Think of particle board versus real wood. One is cheap, heavy, and easily formed into a variety of shapes. The other is strong and light.

The forging process, because of the vast pressures involved, also compacts the metal, eliminating porosity and the voids that can be a source of cracks or corrosion. The result is that less metal is required to achieve a given strength, meaning lighter, stronger wheels can be made."

If you'd like to learn more about forging, visit this page ...

http://www.scotforge.com/sf_facts_solution.htm

FORGING EXPLAINED VIDEO

Forging is also used widely in the manufacture of high end golf clubs. The process is equally relevant in terms of car parts.

There is a fantastic online video about how Mizuno forges golf clubs in Japan hosted by Masao Nagai, Mizuno's director of global golf Reseach and Development, which reveals the secrets of Mizuno's forging process.

The video has some excellent info about casting vs forging.

You can view it at

http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/videos/index....29_artofforging

There is a very interesting video here about how Rays forged wheels are made, and Rays Engineering in Japan has also developed their own highly advanced casting process with fine crystals which you can find info about in this video ...

http://www.tunersgroup.com/Videos/rayswheels.html

- The Tuners Group

[smiley513]

thanks boys for putting the time and effort to explain it to me......much appreciated.

Smiley

[GTR-N1]

At the end of the day, the chance that an occupant survives an accident will depend on 3 major parameters; namely...

1) Road Conditions + Potholes, Shoulders, Wet etc

2) Driver + The Way He Was Driving, Alcohol, Heart attack risk etc

3) Car + Its Condition/Makeup >>> see below

3) If it was the car, there are of course many other considerations that need to be considered; namely...

seat belt, air bag, tyres, suspension (incl arms bushes), rust, chassis (incl struts, cross-members, reinforcements), wheels, engine mounts etc

Then if wheels are suspect, were they made of steel, aluminium compound or magnesium compound ?

Were they in good condition, bent, cracked or fatigued & brittle ? Did they weigh more - we mustn't forget that either ?

And then if the wheels, were aluminium alloy, we know that over time, aluminium becomes brittle.

And then if the wheels are magnesium compound, were they made through forging or casting ?

Were they also made of ZK60, AZ91, AZ31 or MA14 if forged?

All of the above is one big giant flow chart!

By the time you get down to the wheel's structure and most of us have and prefer high quality forged wheels (and not just for looks I hope), I can only add this...

If all the variables above were the same; and if your car hits a gutter at 100Km/Hr and you're flying through the air towards a tree 20m beyond, would you hit that tree at greater speed after your cast wheels cracked rather than your forged wheels bent ????????????

After considering the variables, I can only say "probably a bit"

Would it make a difference between living and dying? "Maybe a bit"

Has a life ever been saved because the rims were forged rather than cast? "Probably, but it might never show on stats"

I guess, being scientific, I'd like to know a bit more yet! Many thanks for the thread!

[bozodos]

well to add my only experiences of rims hitting hard objects, I hit a gutter doing about 50 in my vn with (cast I assume) ROH Fury rims, a friend with an XR8 hit the same gutter at a similar speed in an XR8 with stock rims, his rim had the lip bent over double, mine was 100% apart from the shredded tyre and a bent steering rack.

[NZM.031]

i smacked a gutter a few months ago with some 20 yr old 3pc Panasports.. they have forged centres but i think the outer rims are cast... both LH rims were damaged.. but reusable if i was to replace the outer rim... i dont know how hard i hit, but it was enough to snap the castor rod, snap the cast steering knuckle, mangle the top and bottom control arms, mangle the end of the cross member, and mangle underneath the wheel well.. the wheels had a hard life before me and needed the rim pieces replaced anyway with lots of crack repairs.. but they were still going strong.

[squiggles]

maybe next time they might just try and keep the car o the track

[Birds]

I agree 100% with Duncan. Cast wheels can be manufactured to good quality and weakness has just as much to do with the spoke design as it does the manufacturing process. The type of accident that breaks a wheel generally renders the rest of your car damaged beyond drivable. About the only accident that doesn't is stress fracture in the wheel from potholes in the ground, which aren't usually common on a racing surface. It's like a hypothetical front bar made out of diamond...sure everything else will get destroyed long before it goes, but what is the point of it surviving if the rest of your car won't work? No 160km/h impact leaves a car driveable around a race track. I would only buy Rays if I liked the design and for the weight savings, after I'd spent my money on everything else in the car.