Possibly Taking Legal Action Againt Workshop Interstate

[llama_au]

...I wonder how many actually even come close to running with it.

Nearly, but I was threatened with a defamation case so we agreed to disagree.

[Birds]

Most places will w'tee only their item, not the R & R. IME tho, once in the ghey performance area of automotive, your lucky if you even get warranty at all. With many saying no warranty on performance parts. Gl with it. So many ppl threaten companies with legal action, I wonder how many actually even come close to running with it.

Not many at all. If you've been in the trade long enough then you're used to people threatening you with legal action. No matter how honest or hard working you are, you will eventually come across a not-so-happy customer, who, even if you're in the right threatens to bring in the legal guns. And there are oh-so-many of these people about, as it is human nature not to take responsibility where possible. Not saying the workshop is always right, but there are alot of things about the mechanical trade that many customers don't understand. The fact that this line of work is so hit and miss, for example. The only thing these customers see and understand is the dollars coming out of their pocket. You combine this sort of experience in the trade with the temperament of your average mechanic and in most cases threats of legal action will be responded to with "get f***ed". Those who do go ahead with it, soon enough realise the expense of legal counsel will outweigh most bills you receive from a workshop. Those who go to VCAT have the pleasure of missing a day of work to be told that without written quotes or explicit warranty terms they have next to no case...and if they are very lucky the bill will be split down the middle.

Both workshops colaborated in getting this component working but not working properly.

Are you saying that because the the interstate workshop can claim that the work was not done correctly by the local workshop that theyre not responsible?

its a question of blame and im in the middle of it being out of pocket. I have no intetion of pitting one workshop against another, i just dont think its fair that i have to pay for expensive labour for something that is in no way my fault and out of my hands.

Hopefully local workshop will speak to intestate workshop to determine the nature of the problem. For me its a question of blame and who will take responsibility.

You talk about prone-to-failure installation. From doing similar work myself to a previous car, i cant see the labour being anything other than strait forward. I trust my local workshop and hope they value my continued buisness enough to tell me the truth about what has gone wrong in this situation.

Birds, thanks for an indepth reply, it is appreciated

Not saying they aren't responsible, just that, they can indeed say they are not responsible if it is in their terms of warranty that they must install it. They can also say that unless you follow their course of warranty action, they don't have to pay a cent to reimburse you for R&R. As for the part itself, the onus is on you to prove that this part failed structurally and not during installation. It is the nature of this trade that as a customer with no business to keep in profit, you are the one who will cop it on the chin. It sucks, it's unfair, but that's how the industry stays alive. The truth is that any mechanic who doesn't charge the customer for their stuff ups doesn't last. If you don't pay for their stuff ups on your vehicle, their next customer does. It's the only way to remain viable in the industry because automobiles are too exact a science for human frailty and a TAFE certificate.

Labour might seem straight forward when you're doing one offs for your own car, but when it is your fulltime job...as a bullshit statistic, one in every twenty jobs will be a stuff up. And when you are dealing with performance parts, i.e. non OEM parts you can easily increase this frequency. Whilst you'll take time with your own car (everybody enthusiast does), a mechanic has other cars to complete and lunch to go to. They value your business but they won't want to / can't afford to lose dollars/labour over it, particularly if they believe they're in the right. They might not even know they stuffed up or how they stuffed up. We have plenty of mechanics try to put it on us for faulty gearboxes/diffs (lucky for us there are some great telltales of poor installation) without a clue as to where they've gone wrong during installation. In your case it could be either mechanic or part supplier at fault, but I already know who's going to wear the cost unless the part supplier is feeling generous.

I hate hearing "thank you" when I'm the bearer of bad news but you are welcome. I do wish you all the best in obtaining a satisfactory outcome...i.e. your vehicle in working order for minimal $$$. If there's anything else I can help you with please contact me via PM...you never know who I might know

[R31Nismoid]

Buddy, I am not getting into specifics, I was giving an example and making a general point as I am trying to help him out.

I recently built my RB25/30 front top to bottom, everything is brand new including the ECU I'm running.

I've got a 12 month warranty on the engine, the tune, the turbo, EVERYTHING.

If you want to buy and install your performance parts from shops that don't offer warranty, that's your problem.

As soon as I come across an issue, I take it to my mechanic/tuner, and he fixes it right away, no questions asked. He'll contact the supplier, and they send down a replacement product within 1 week (like when my wastegate screwed up).'

If my turbo fails due to the lack of oil pressure, I'll take my car to my mechanic and say fix it, and I'am not bearing any of the cost, and rightly so.

I was referring to the Garrett Warranty as an example.

Good luck with your 12 month 'warranty' when something actually goes wrong.

If he didn't charge you labour to take the gate off etc etc, then he won't be in business for very long.

[mid life crisis]

I was referring to the Garrett Warranty as an example.

Good luck with your 12 month 'warranty' when something actually goes wrong.

If he didn't charge you labour to take the gate off etc etc, then he won't be in business for very long.

and good luck on ya warranty when you blow something going down the strip you wont be covered then

[V-Spec]

i guess being friendly and asking nicely is going to get me further than being difficult and demanding.

i hate feeling out of pocket on someone elses mistake but when its not going to be worth it, theres no point burning bridges.

Edited October 28, 2009 by V-Spec

[llama_au]

Warranties mean f*ck all as well. I had a 40,000km warranty on my custom auto build, started having issues 20,000km in. The builder claims the mechanic I was using at the time caused the damage - I couldn't disprove them therefore I footed the bill for repairs.

Warranties really aren't worth the paper they're written on.

[33gtst]

Ah they all love to pass the damn buck.

V spec sometimes you simply have to get nasty, but only as a last resort. I had a business owner go troppo at me after his engine failed in my car 2 days outside the initial warranty period. (completely stock standard car btw no mods at all, not even pod) after many heated conversations I was lucky and he agreed to replace the engine. But here I found being nice wasnt getting me anywhere.

Birds, is it really that hit or miss? Honestly? Are there any areas of the automotive mechanical field that really should and do support a error margin that a customer has to pay for? Provided things are done correctly...on all accounts, diagnosis to install whats left to hit and miss?

Not having a go either, just very curious to hear your viewpoint.

[Birds]

i guess being friendly and asking nicely is going to get me further than being difficult and demanding.

i hate feeling out of pocket on someone elses mistake but when its not going to be worth it, theres no point burning bridges.

I would start with nice and if that doesn't work / you don't mind cutting ties with your workshop...move for something more drastic like a carefully thought through and consulted threat of legal action. Though my previous posts may give you the idea I'm against people doing this, it's far from the case. I am just pointing out to you and others the reality that many people end up facing after alot of buggering around...because in many cases legal action is a bluff that will be called and isn't guaranteed to work in your favour. What I'm saying is, be prepared to enter a fight if you go down this path. Different amounts of money mean different things to different people, but IMO if the quarrel is over a few hundred dollars then don't spend more time on the fight than it takes you to earn that money working your job. In the end the money in a fight will most likely go to whoever it means the most to.

Ah they all love to pass the damn buck.

V spec sometimes you simply have to get nasty, but only as a last resort. I had a business owner go troppo at me after his engine failed in my car 2 days outside the initial warranty period. (completely stock standard car btw no mods at all, not even pod) after many heated conversations I was lucky and he agreed to replace the engine. But here I found being nice wasnt getting me anywhere.

Birds, is it really that hit or miss? Honestly? Are there any areas of the automotive mechanical field that really should and do support a error margin that a customer has to pay for? Provided things are done correctly...on all accounts, diagnosis to install whats left to hit and miss?

Not having a go either, just very curious to hear your viewpoint.

Yep, almost everything is hit and miss. From what I've seen and I've seen alot (used to do alot of sales repping in this trade), if you knew/know what goes on in most workshops you probably wouldn't take your car there! The biggest problem with being a mechanic is that each car and job is different, so in most cases it's a game of trial and error. General mechanics (non-dealership) don't have the money to buy a workshop manual for each car or the time to sit there and read them for every job like we would working on our own cars - it's a break even business as is without spending more time/money on things. I'm in no way blaming them for what they have to do or saying don't take your car to a mechanic...someone has to do the job of repairing peoples cars...it's just unfortunate that to stay alive in the industry you can't always operate the way you'd like to or the way people expect you to. You're totally correct when you say they like to pass the buck...everyone does...you should see how much handballing goes on when something goes wrong. It's not uncommon for broken parts to be blamed on couriers during transit (sometimes it is their fault!). Also, there is a saying...an honest mechanic is a broke mechanic!

As for areas that support a margin of error...manufacturing of brand new products is about the only one. Any job left to humans is prone to error; we're not perfect. Diagnosis for example, can be incorrect on account of an honest mistake. Take for example a noisy tailshaft, which can produce the same symptoms as a noisy diff or wheel bearing and is next to impossible to distinguish between. You replace the wheel bearings...recondition the diff...$800 later and the noise is still there. Yet the customer pays for this because it is their vehicle (they now "own" the parts/repairs) and problems like this go hand in hand with expensive repairs because they can be so hard to diagnose. Installation can be incorrect...minute (yet important) differences between parts or models of cars can easily leave you installing something incorrectly. Sometimes the only way to find out whether something is working after fixing it is to test the part in it's element...which can damage it again/further! There are so many variables involved in it all and that's why it's a hit and miss trade. The most understanding of customers in this situation are usually ex-mechanics or people who work in the industry

[IOWNU]

Hello,

Ive come to the conclusion of possibly taking legal action against a workshop in another state.

Got an item rebuilt at a reputable workshop interstate and there now is a problem with it according to my local reputable workshop. Labour in taking this item out, having it sent off and them put back in will be around $1000 dollars.

I dont feel obligated to pay for labour that had to be done for something that was not my fault or my local workshops fault.

Would it be out of line to request the interstate workshop pay for the labour if it is proven that the fault is theirs? (I can most likley get a written and signed document stating the cause of the fault and who is responsible)

Does anyone here have any suggestions, feelings or advice on the matter and want to know if this has this happened to anyone on here before?

Is there any ombudsman or government department that deals with disputes or requests such as these?

Thanks.

What you need to consider here is that proving beyond reasonable doubt that the interstate workshop in question is at fault is no easy task, at law, in court, it would be your word against theirs and a magistrate would most likely conclude that as the exact cause of the fault cannot be properly ascertained, the interstate workshop is not liable for any labour sums outstanding. No doubt, the interstate workshop will claim that your workshop was somehow negligent and ought to have properly installed the item in question. Point being, no point trying to get them to pay for labour, it is perhaps better to look at the nature of the item in question.

Assuming the item is not covered by an explicit warranty, it is perhaps worth claiming on statutory grounds (as per the Fair Trading Act or Trade Practices Act), that is you can try and enforce an implicit warranty, you could argue that the item is not of merchantable quality (i.e defective or that it is inherently faulty), or that it is not fit for the purpose that it is purported to be fit for, at best, the workshop would be liable for repairing the item, or replacing it. This can be done via the small claims tribunal (department of fair trading). Again, the outcome of such action would be subjective and dependent on many factors. That said, this is the better option, you have a chance of success, whereas, with claiming costs of labour you don't even have that IMO.

[Ziller]

Ah they all love to pass the damn buck.

V spec sometimes you simply have to get nasty, but only as a last resort. I had a business owner go troppo at me after his engine failed in my car 2 days outside the initial warranty period. (completely stock standard car btw no mods at all, not even pod) after many heated conversations I was lucky and he agreed to replace the engine. But here I found being nice wasnt getting me anywhere.

Birds, is it really that hit or miss? Honestly? Are there any areas of the automotive mechanical field that really should and do support a error margin that a customer has to pay for? Provided things are done correctly...on all accounts, diagnosis to install whats left to hit and miss?

Not having a go either, just very curious to hear your viewpoint.

I agree, things happen for a reason, sometimes you do have to get nasty, some workshops play on the customers lack of knowledge and try to baffle them with bullshit, lets face it, its very rare that a well looked after customer comes back with a complaint, ive been around the merry go round a few times and have had to listen to " Oh but I have a business to run " the customer has a business to run aswell, its called there own business, with a head full of dreams and pockets full of cash, the customer often dives in to quick with the terms and conditions not being properly understood, Im having issues with a workshop now, being very reasonable has not worked, it was just seen as a weakness, being nasty, now im geting somewere, sadly i feel i will have to take this guy to court as im now well and truely pissed off, it involves around $60,000 spent at his workshop in total and a 3rd engine rebuild on the way, 1st engine spun a bearing on his dyno, 2nd engine checked after around 2200 kms, you could file your nails on the main bearings ( 3rd engine at a differant workshop ) all with only 7500 to 8,000 kms in total, I have a very good case, its very very importent to keep all records and notes and have as many witnesses as you can ....P.S had a great wheel alinement done at Bob Jane in Moorabbin, Top job, friendly service, very good price, what more can I say.

[trance]

as far as warranties are concerned (for anything in australia, with australian warranty), if an item is purchased brand new, legally they must cover said item for minimum 12 months. however, the reseller or manufacturer has the right to do various testing (ie: determining if the unit was operated within tolerances as per design reference, physically damaged, incorrectly installed etc). if the reseller or manufacturer can prove the item was void of warranty, they are not obliged to repair or replace the item (having said that, they can also opt to do so).

on that note, its anybodies statutory right to further the issue via small claims etc, and then it is upto the magistrate to decide.

i suppose the question is; will seeking for the damages be feasible? (will it cost more in legal representation/time/stress etc?). as has been mentioned, it would look like a messy case, and might cost you more stress than the pocket.

ps: this isnt legal advise, but i have called various govt bodies regarding warranties in the past, and this is some of what i was told (they also mentioned to me that it isnt legal advise ). simply put, seek legal advise and hear what they have to say. depending on the costs, it most likely wouldnt be worth the effort and time from work (and all the rest of it).

just to clarify, with two examples:

1. you purchased a turbo from an authorised reseller, whom also installed the turbo and tested/tuned the car. if the turbo is kept within the tolerances as per design, and the turbo fails, you would claim warranty on the unit alone. (this is assuming the turbo was installed correctly, if not you would put forward a complaint against the workshop and seek damages).

2. you purchased a stage 3 shift kit for your brand spanker xr6t or hsv something or other, subsequently your gearbox fails. you wouldnt claim warranty on the gearbox (you could try but it would be void), however you could put forward a complaint against the workshop and seek damages).

hope this helps in any way.

[33gtst]

Well Birds you make the auto field seem like rocket science. lol.

Although having seen trade school first hand I'm not at all surprised so many ppl get it so wrong. Perhaps this is where the large majority of the problem lies.

[adznight]

and good luck on ya warranty when you blow something going down the strip you wont be covered then

Haha couldn't agree more, manufactures warranty that cover actual part defect - no problems but as for the build of an engine, good luck proving it was the workshops fault when you spin a bearing dropping a 7000rpm burnout @ DECA or something.

Unless it's a blatant mistake a warranty wont cover squat.

[Birds]

I agree, things happen for a reason, sometimes you do have to get nasty, some workshops play on the customers lack of knowledge and try to baffle them with bullshit, lets face it, its very rare that a well looked after customer comes back with a complaint, ive been around the merry go round a few times and have had to listen to " Oh but I have a business to run " the customer has a business to run aswell, its called there own business, with a head full of dreams and pockets full of cash, the customer often dives in to quick with the terms and conditions not being properly understood, Im having issues with a workshop now, being very reasonable has not worked, it was just seen as a weakness, being nasty, now im geting somewere, sadly i feel i will have to take this guy to court as im now well and truely pissed off, it involves around $60,000 spent at his workshop in total and a 3rd engine rebuild on the way, 1st engine spun a bearing on his dyno, 2nd engine checked after around 2200 kms, you could file your nails on the main bearings ( 3rd engine at a differant workshop ) all with only 7500 to 8,000 kms in total, I have a very good case, its very very importent to keep all records and notes and have as many witnesses as you can ....P.S had a great wheel alinement done at Bob Jane in Moorabbin, Top job, friendly service, very good price, what more can I say.

Whilst your case is an outstanding one given it's repeated mistakes and some serious cash involved...in most cases it is something the customer has to cop for the industry to survive. There would be no mechanics in business if the workshop paid for every mistake that was made! We already think mechanics rip us off when it comes to price, well they would be much higher on average if they had to cover their own mistakes too. It is true there are plenty of dodgy mechanics out there who do pray on uninformed customers, however even the honest ones will one day be challenged on the legitimacy of their work. Just look at some of the reputable workshops on here, or the sellers.

Well Birds you make the auto field seem like rocket science. lol.

Although having seen trade school first hand I'm not at all surprised so many ppl get it so wrong. Perhaps this is where the large majority of the problem lies.

Well there we go, you have seen what it's like

And you are correct. IMO generalised mechanics are effectively DIY people with a qualification or two in the basics of automobiles. The rest is guesswork and experience, the latter meaning squat if it's a totally different car/job to what they are used to. If we think about it...something as complex as an engine and mechanics don't get paid nearly as much as engineers or doctors! Given the field doesn't usually attract the uppermost range of IQ distribution there is bound to be f*** ups.