No Power, Slugish.

[azzafreddy]

yeah, i do have another skyline that runs fine, but ive been driving that one for like 18 months now and for the last 6 months the blue one has been sitting in my shed teasing me, i dont think im gonna bother with a mechanic this time round, just buy the ECU and high compression pistons, do it all myself with an old mate of mine that knows his shit about cars, im thinking i might get him around over a few weekends and work hard at it sat and sunday and give him $100 and a slab of beer, i can still drive my other car while this is being done so theres no time rush.. also with the greddy emanage, i can tune that to my standard DE but once i put the turbo back in because it is an aftermarket ECU can i then get it re tuned so it suits the turbo?

[azzafreddy]

also, i just paid like $900 for stamp duty and registration for the DET, im not really keen to leave it for 10 months and not drive it till it has 2 months of rego left, thats more of a waste, im happy to drive it without a turbo so i think ill just go for changing the pistons and ecu, getting a tune, use it as my daily, sell my other skyline so i make up a bit of cash from the waste of money, put the turbo back in in 10 months, then im laughing.

[Samon]

If you end up putting NA stuff in the engine keep all that in the engine so you wont have to spend MORE money!!!. Then put a turbo back on and use your old ECU with a Apexi power FC or E-manage, (you will need to keep a good tune through a copyback) boost controller will be handy to adjust turbo settings to 6PSI (yeah not much as stated by sam or the engine will really go BOOM) keep it this way and you have a GTS-t that got high compression so you can take off without that turbo sluggish start and still gain some power from a turbo (best for street use because of the response being more easier to drive with and the turbo is really responsive aswell so it all ends up making a good daily driver).

Yep... almost NO lag... it's pretty awesome... got a mate with a Subaru Liberty B4 (twin sequential turbos) and even with that I had less lag! Of course as I and others have stated, you're very limited with the amount of boost you can safely run... so you're never gonna reach any crazy power figures, and at the top end even a slightly modded gts-t or most decent stock V8's will cream you, but for a punchy, fun, driveable car it is pretty good.

[mad082]

Sam's spot on

RB25DE pistons

RB25DE ECU

Tune

(you will have your NA)

If you end up putting NA stuff in the engine keep all that in the engine so you wont have to spend MORE money!!!. Then put a turbo back on and use your old ECU with a Apexi power FC or E-manage, (you will need to keep a good tune through a copyback) boost controller will be handy to adjust turbo settings to 6PSI (yeah not much as stated by sam or the engine will really go BOOM) keep it this way and you have a GTS-t that got high compression so you can take off without that turbo sluggish start and still gain some power from a turbo (best for street use because of the response being more easier to drive with and the turbo is really responsive aswell so it all ends up making a good daily driver).

Other than that drive the other NA around for now and just reverse what has been done to the GTS-t ........... bit of a waste to do that i think.

i wouldn't exactly call a rb25det sluggish down low. certainly not like a rb20 or sr20. sure a de+t will have even more low end than a det, but the det isn't that bad to start with. i was making 14psi by around 2700rpm on the stock turbo.

i think people should point out the exact cost and work involved of converting the det to a de. you all make it sound so easy. "yeah just slap some pistons in and a natro ecu and she's apples mate". a bit more complicated than that.

azzafreddy, your mate who "knows his shit", has he ever rebuilt an engine, or does he just know the technical side of things (how much power cars make, etc)? if he hasn't ever rebuilt a motor, then you may want to rethink your approach to this. while it isn't rocket science to rebuild an engine, it also isn't as easy as changing a tyre. there is a lot of work involved, and a lot that can go wrong if you don't do things properly, or have the correct tools. while i'm all for learning by doing, don't bite off more than you can chew. while people in here are saying it would be a waste to not do it, it would be more of a waste to do it incorrectly and end up with a blown engine.

[central coast person]

i wouldn't exactly call a rb25det sluggish down low. certainly not like a rb20 or sr20. sure a de+t will have even more low end than a det, but the det isn't that bad to start with. i was making 14psi by around 2700rpm on the stock turbo.

i think people should point out the exact cost and work involved of converting the det to a de. you all make it sound so easy. "yeah just slap some pistons in and a natro ecu and she's apples mate". a bit more complicated than that.

azzafreddy, your mate who "knows his shit", has he ever rebuilt an engine, or does he just know the technical side of things (how much power cars make, etc)? if he hasn't ever rebuilt a motor, then you may want to rethink your approach to this. while it isn't rocket science to rebuild an engine, it also isn't as easy as changing a tyre. there is a lot of work involved, and a lot that can go wrong if you don't do things properly, or have the correct tools. while i'm all for learning by doing, don't bite off more than you can chew. while people in here are saying it would be a waste to not do it, it would be more of a waste to do it incorrectly and end up with a blown engine.

A DE is less sluggish than a DET is what i was pointing out and a DE+T is a car built for street not circuit is what im suggesting

Arron just needs to know the facts at the moment, his question was that his car is sluggish. To over come this you will need a NA ECU, Pistons finished off with a tune.

Gathering the parts is simple, once gathered you must take the engine apart.

Stick the ECU in as it is a fairly easy job

Engine:

Go to Supercheap and get a compartment box to keep all your bolts and nuts in neatly. I just cut some tape and stuck a square indicating what bolt and nut went where to make life easy.

MAD082 is right, it isnt just take off put back on. Off the top of my head i can remember this:

1). Take off air intake all the way up too throttle body

Done with a simple socket set

(EASY)

2). Take radiator top and bottom hose's off

Philips head screwdriver.

Take the heater hose's off

Philips head screwdriver.

(EASY)

3). Wiring has to be taken off now. I advise you get a roll of tape and label from 1 and up. 1 around the AFM connector and 1 around the plug (this way you know what goes where easily).

stick the wires in a box.

(EASY)

4). Take all fuel, Air Con lines etc off the engine.

Philips head screw driver.

(EASY)

[you haven't touched the engine yet] (might i had that leaving the hood on will get in your way so take it off, its only 4 bolts)

5). Take head shield and exhaust manifold off

Socket set and maybe a breaker bar

(Medium) Involves muscle and you have to unbolt from the engine and the front pipe.

The engine is free from the chassis, the only holding points are the gearbox and front shaft. At this point i would pull the top end off as i did when i built my engine, its easier and weighs less and 2 people can lift it. At this point your look at 2-3 hours of work. at this point its fairly easy but after this you have to take the intake manifold and such off

6). Now you have to take IN THIS ORDER oouuutttt these parts.

Throttle body is 4 bolts and the throttle cable. just need socket set (EASY)

Then take intake chamber off, i think its 6 bolts. Socket set will take this off (EASY)

Once that is off the fuel lines and rails with the injectors have to be taken out. Philips head screw driver, socket set (HARD HARD HARD, this is where their are tiny little O rings and parts that fall out. You cant get past this point if you dont know how to pull the engine apart because all on from here its not as simple as taking the bolts off)

Then the intake manifold has to bee cracked off the block by taking some bolts off again. (MEDIUM)

It takes about 3-4 hours and you have not dealt with the engine yet, just taken parts off that is fairly easy.

After this your friend needs to know how to take the head off the block and everything else involved. Its very complicated to explain after this because its not as simple as turn and off comes the part. You need to call your friend and ask him if he can do it and you also need a engine crane to pull the block out.

This is what it looks like when you are ready to take the block out..... - the shiny 50thou pistons. You have to disconnect the shafts into the block ETC ETC your looking at 4 days work.

Putting it back on is 75% more work than taking it off. All the bolts need the right torque settings (grab a mechanics manual) all settings must be right or you could snap bolts or risk parts breaking. Then you need to get the timing right and a tune done.

Once everything is off it takes double time to put back on believe me .......

[azzafreddy]

thanks a million "central coast people" for all that info, it does sound rather complicated, and i dont have an engine hoist, neither do i have a shed to work in just a driveway, when u look at an engine as someone who is just learning you dont realize that it could be that complicated, i will talk to my friend who has worked with quite a few cars in he's life, see if i can organize to do the whole lot in his shed where he does have a hoist, if not i'd honestly rather get it done by a professional, my car was in the mechanic for like 10 days they replaced my clutch, cat, horn, removed the turbo did 2 roadworthy's and a whole list of other stuff and he charged me $1800, including everything. someone said on this forum the other day that it would cost me 3 or 4 grand to get this done, now im not familiar with pulling apart a motor and changing the pistons, but shouldn't this take a fully qualified mechanic just a few days, considering they have every tool you need for anything.. im kinda confused how it could be that much for one thing to be changed, like for 4 grand i could go and buy a decent reliable 2nd hand car.

also, mad028, my friend probably buys like 4 or 5 cars a year, does them up and sells them, some of them have been pretty sketchy under the hood as well, and he always gets them going really well.. so id dare say he knows what he's doing, its just a matter of weather or not he has time to get my car around and help me work on changing the pistons...

Edited November 2, 2009 by azzafreddy

[mad082]

that 3 to 4k would probably be for a rebuilt with new pistons, not second hand ones. or they were simple guessing.

yes it would only take a professional mechanic only a few days to get it done, but it would be a few days of solid work, and when they can charge anywhere from $50 to $100 an hour, the money adds up quick. plus there is the costs of gaskets, etc. plus if they get the head machined, that can set you back even more money. my brother in law put a new head gasket on his patrol. did it all himself and all he didn't do himself was machining the head. the head machine, gasket kit and something else cost him close to $1000. but then i had a head gasket replaced on my falcon a few years back and that only cost me $800, but that was through a small mechanic where the labour charge was pretty low. had i gone through the ford dealer it would've been twice that at least.

[Samon]

that 3 to 4k would probably be for a rebuilt with new pistons, not second hand ones. or they were simple guessing.

yes it would only take a professional mechanic only a few days to get it done, but it would be a few days of solid work, and when they can charge anywhere from $50 to $100 an hour, the money adds up quick. plus there is the costs of gaskets, etc. plus if they get the head machined, that can set you back even more money. my brother in law put a new head gasket on his patrol. did it all himself and all he didn't do himself was machining the head. the head machine, gasket kit and something else cost him close to $1000. but then i had a head gasket replaced on my falcon a few years back and that only cost me $800, but that was through a small mechanic where the labour charge was pretty low. had i gone through the ford dealer it would've been twice that at least.

Yeah the 3-4K was for a rebuild with new pistons, bearings, etc... sure you could do it much cheaper if you're using second hand parts... but like mad082 mentioned, once you factor in the cost of gaskets and labour even second hand pistons wouldn't drop the cost that much, as the majority is in the labour.

[R34GTFOUR]

There's no point sticking a stock N/A ecu in there if you are still running the turbo injectors, it will run much worse (ie much richer again).

You must run the same injectors as the ecu you are using (ie na injectors = na ecu). The AFM are interchangeable so no worries there.

If it was me there would only be two options:

1.Get a powerfc or emanage at the very least (something that will tune fuel/air and ignition timing) and tune it. When you go to bolt the turbo back on you tune it to suit again.

2.Don't go to the extremes of rebuilding that engine back to N/A specs, waste of time and money. It would be much much easier just to pick up a cheap 2nd hand RB25DE for $500 or less, slap it in and be on your merry way. Remember if you buy a complete engine with manifold, injectors etc you'll need the na ecu. Its a full day job and you'll have the "proper" N/A engine. Again, once you are off your P's, pop the RB25DET back in and sell the RB25DE for what you bought it for.

I would probably lean towards option 1 because its easier, but the beauty of option two is that you could do a "freshen up" rebuild on the DET engine to support bigger power down the track and you could still drive around with the DE engine whilst its getting done.

Edited November 3, 2009 by R34GTFOUR

[azzafreddy]

i have 2 skylines and they have both done just over 100,000 killometers (so they wouldnt be much different then the cluster says), the only difference is ones a DE (grey) and the others a DET (blue). what if i changed the motors & ecu's over because one is tuned for a turbo and the other isnt, put the turbo into the grey r33 sell that as a DET because its no longer a DE (and make a little extra selling considering it would be turboed and its all got good parts), drove around with the DE in my blue r33 untill i get off my p's, buy brand new intercooler, turbo, piping, BOV,ECU in 10 months when i get off my p's? by that stage ill be able to install it all myself. then it will be an RB25DE+T which if im correct will efectivelly give me more power then the DET anyway because the compression is higher.

my only concern is that its going to take a while to do (which means i wont have a car, and its 12 kays to work) and i have a feeling you guys are going to tell me its not going to be cheap.

[azzafreddy]

by the way, i am definitely reading everything everyones saying, just exploring all my options before i go and waste more money on something that could turn out better if i did something else in the long run..

[azzafreddy]

giving up on it, dont have the time and money atm, selling my stock skyline and putting the turbo back in the other one. thanks everyone. been a great help, by the way if anyone wants to give me some pointers on putting my turbo back in, it would be a good help, i know where to mount everything and what pipes go to what, just not sure on where some of the thinner lines go, like the vaccuum line to the blow off valve for example, and theres small bendable metal bars coming out from near the turbo, not sure where they go either.. thanks everyone.

Edited November 5, 2009 by azzafreddy

[Samon]

giving up on it, dont have the time and money atm, selling my stock skyline and putting the turbo back in the other one. thanks everyone. been a great help, by the way if anyone wants to give me some pointers on putting my turbo back in, it would be a good help, i know where to mount everything and what pipes go to what, just not sure on where some of the thinner lines go, like the vaccuum line to the blow off valve for example, and theres small bendable metal bars coming out from near the turbo, not sure where they go either.. thanks everyone.

Ah, those 'small bendable metal bars coming out from near the turbo' are probably your oil/water lines... vacuum line to the BOV comes from the plenum... looking from the passenger side of the car accross towards the throttle body it's right it the bottom right hand corner, i.e. toward the back of the vehicle.

No offence, but by the sound of those questions I'd make sure you have someone who is a mechanic or at least who's played around with changing turbos, etc around before you start it up... don't wanna accidentally miss something and cook the engine or cease the turbo due to an incorrect water or oil line somewhere, or an incorrect vacuum/boost line somewhere allowing infinte boost, etc.

[azzafreddy]

yeah, for sure, im going to put it all togethor then get my friend to come around and make sure everythings right to go before i start anything up, good chance to learn for myself.

[mad082]

don't forget, when you put the turbo on, before you connect up the lower oil line, unplug the coils and turn the car over until oil comes out of the turbo oil line. that was in the instructions that came with my mates 3076 that i had to put on for him.

and leaving the engines in the cars they were originalyl in sounds like a much better idea than swapping motors. save yourself a lot of work for zero gain.

[Super Drager]

I don't undertand why you'd want to swap motors in the first place when you already have an N/A skyline?

[azzafreddy]

don't forget, when you put the turbo on, before you connect up the lower oil line, unplug the coils and turn the car over until oil comes out of the turbo oil line. that was in the instructions that came with my mates 3076 that i had to put on for him.

and leaving the engines in the cars they were originalyl in sounds like a much better idea than swapping motors. save yourself a lot of work for zero gain.

yeah mate, im not even gonna do the turbo at all, just going to watch my mate do it, ill tell him anyway just incase he doesnt do it like that.. but im pretty sure he would considering hes done up 20+ cars in he's life.. yeh, it was gonna be a big waste changing the motors over, im not losing anything putting the turbo back in, labour will all be free..

cheers.

[azzafreddy]

I don't undertand why you'd want to swap motors in the first place when you already have an N/A skyline?

because my newest R33 (DET) looks about a thousand times better then my DE, the DE runs better, who would drive a stock standard R33 when you have a fully done up, freshly painted, lowered R33 sitting in your driveway gathering dust? so the plan was to change the motors over so i can drive the better looking one, because the DET wont run smooth without a turbo, but i decided to put the turbo back in and risk losing my license for the next year.

Edited November 7, 2009 by azzafreddy

[beamstas]

Just fix up the gts-t so it has its turbo back and wait until you have your full licence

[AndreW_R32]

Yes, id be concerned about the IQ of my mechanic if he did that too (my mechanic is me most of the time )

Also, if cops want to be asH*les they will, and even though there clearly is no turbo on the side of your car, they can say well, you have hidden it from us because your car clearly has it stamped on it as gtst.... so theres nothing u can do there...

As for conceling it, I drove for over 2/3s of my p's with a turbo and a fair few mods on... hid it with a little custom heat shielding... still got defected once (cop wanted to be an ass) ... but the point is that as long as theres no whistles and hisses from an aftermarket BOV and u drive sensibily... you should be ok... better then driving a tractor of a skyline for 10 months imo...

PLZ GET A standard N/A ecu... go to wreckers... look on this site... ppl have them... u just gotta look... it will atleast solve a few of your problems.

Now, why not try something like this :

this photo is amazing