Andra Vs E85 ... Sign The Petition.

[MBS206]

Mark Jacobsen has instructed me to be extremely careful handling this fuel. He passed this information down from the supplier (Performance Wholesale). Its illegal to use this fuel in any marine application such as personal watercraft. Must be a reason? James Hardie once said asbestos was harmless too!

When the stuff is mixed in fuel, it is the first chemical that spreads through water.

The earliest signs of an underground fuel storage tank leak is the detection of MTBE for this reason

And I would say, with ANY fuel, you should be extremely careful, including unleaded fuel.

[Beer Baron]

OK...some insight. Roo16 contains MTBE...a very toxic substance, the fuel must be handled like its acid. MTBE allows the fuel to carry lots more oxygen molecules...but goes off very quickly when exposed to nitrogen (our air is 80% nitrogen). So it is unwise to re-use old fuel in the tank so each meeting starts with a fresh fill. A fresh fill is also important if i have been running pump fuel in the car as draining it will avoid contamination. By the time you fill the lines, pumps, surge tank etc you have about 15 litres out of your $260-$270 19 litre drum in your tank for use. As you may be aware it would be very foolish to run this down to less than 5 litres in a race car so this 15 litres will if im careful get me through the qualifying rounds. Then its time to crack a new drum of which i normally put about 1/2 in...if i go through to the semi then its time to put the rest in...if not this 10 or so litres is kept sealed and used to check the tune before the next event. Some events have over 90 pairs of cars so it could mean 5 or 6 eliminators before you get to the semi's which means if i took 2 drums to an event and made the semi final id be out of fuel!!.

Its a real pain in the ass worrying about being so careful with the fuel as inhaling it and/or getting it on your skin is not going to do your long term health any favours as well as the added headache of having to worry about skimping on the fuel load to save some dollars. Everytime i crack a drum of this stuff it breaks my wallet in two...my fuel bill for tuning the car and a two day meet recently was $1060 !!!

good points. I understand about the fuel going off once exposed to air bit and have experienced it myself. highly oxegenated fuel is a wonderful thing and gives a lot of benefit that is not explained by a simple RON number. I think the only way to run it economically is to switch to a small fuel cell for drag racing. like a 4 litre cell in the boot. keep the regular tank if you like if you still want street duties and switch to the small cell for the $$$ stuff. I do see your point though.

[Swiper the Fox]

good points. I understand about the fuel going off once exposed to air bit and have experienced it myself. highly oxegenated fuel is a wonderful thing and gives a lot of benefit that is not explained by a simple RON number. I think the only way to run it economically is to switch to a small fuel cell for drag racing. like a 4 litre cell in the boot. keep the regular tank if you like if you still want street duties and switch to the small cell for the $$$ stuff. I do see your point though.

Nice work Baron...spot on...ive just done the fuel cell mod you mentioned about 2 weeks ago. 4 litres is a bit small though as fuel would heat up very quickly...ive gone for a 15litre foam filled item which im planning to run half full.

Edited December 9, 2009 by DiRTgarage

[Butters]

With your budget factor your only considering the race meet. Your forgetting drag racers are constantly fillding and chasing more tune/power.

I don't think i have ever gone a gap between meets without changing something. So retune and race is around 60 litres for me on average.

So $150 vs $600(sunoco) are my options. 6 meets a year = $3600 vs $900.

Considering my entire budget for the season is $5k I pretty much go back to U98.

Then there is the fact I often drive the car to workshops. At $10 / litre you don't have to go many km's before its cheaper to get a tow.

Now on the environment side. Beside the chemicals factor. Your forgetting it a large portion of the fuel comes from renewable waste resource.

Not oil companies !

Small introductions like this allow the industry behind to build infrastructure as the demand grows at a controllable pace.

Its really more then our hip pocket its about the future of fuel !

Edited December 9, 2009 by Butters

[bozodos]

isn't MTBE also found in commercial 'octane booster's and injector cleaners?

Whats the big deal about E85 apart from being a cleaner fuel and cheaper? Is the performance gained more than offsetting the amount used?

[Butters]

Whats the big deal about E85 apart from being a cleaner fuel and cheaper?

Your forgetting it a large portion of the fuel comes from renewable waste resource.

Not oil companies !

Is the performance gained more than offsetting the amount used?

Mm about the same. Is cheaper, cleaner and more power not enough ?

[Swiper the Fox]

There was once a fella called Mr Diesel...he invented an engine that ran on vegetable oil...he then mysteriously disappeared off the face of the planet. The engine was then used to burn a waste by-product that used to cost oil companies a fortune to get rid of after oil was refined to produce petrol.

Oil companies are good...very good.

Edited December 9, 2009 by DiRTgarage

[ezy_09s]

^^ Sad but true.

When are the masses going to stand up for E85 ??..Demand = supply...no demand = no supply.

For all the guys on this forum with turbo'd skylines who are looking for better fuel alternatives...HERE IT IS !

Yet only a handful joined in on the petition.

E85 & turbo'd cars go together like piss heads and breweries...C'mon start voting people!

[MBS206]

The big issue is, even if demand rises, and supply rises, it's going to reach a point where demand > supply.

Australia doesn't have the viable land area to be able to produce ethanol.

America has the issue also... There are now farms that ar epurely growing shit for ethanol... There was a bit of an issue where food supply dropped...

I'm all for E85, but it can never be main streamed as a replacement for pump fuel. We can't supply enough...

Oh, and to all the greenies... Every car in the world accounts for around 3% of the total amount of Hydro Carbon emmisions each year...

IE: Stop worrying so much about your car being bad on the environment and look at the coal fired power stations we run Australia from!

[bozodos]

I might be wrong but I thought that CSR were looking at more viable alternatives to making biofuels than growing crops purely for that end.

[MBS206]

I might be wrong but I thought that CSR were looking at more viable alternatives to making biofuels than growing crops purely for that end.

Where are you going to get it from?

Ethanol comes from plants, or yeast as a bi-product.

If you're not using the whole crop, then you're not utilising your supply 100%, and the amount of yeast, and then how hard it is to distill... Not worth the effort.

[Butters]

i think what bozodos is refering to is the fact that CSR is using the WASTE from sugar cane. So no actual increase in production has occured as yet.

Also no lose in food has occured.

You have a point that there is potential issues when demand outways supply.

Although countries like Brazil have been running it for a few years now and there supply out ways there local demand and are in the export market as well.

Have a read --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

Australia is so 1990 .....

I can't see it being a big issue if australia ramps up its locally owned sugar cane industry and slows down is overseas owned oil drilling.

We have entered another level of debate here though. Given that there is a steady supply available for drag racers at this point in time. I can see no issue.

[bozodos]

yep that's what I was getting at butters, should have been more clear about that.

BTW Do ANDRA actually test fuel or anything like that; is there going to be any way that they are going to notice you're running E85 vs leaded race fuel?

[Butters]

BTW Do ANDRA actually test fuel or anything like that; is there going to be any way that they are going to notice you're running E85 vs leaded race fuel?

Yep, the do regular testing at events.

Its been mentioned that Andra claim to have some of the most advanced fuel testing equipment around.

They measure specific gravity, don't ask me any more then that as its not something i understand well

[T04GTR]

signed

[T04GTR]

ps.. if they say it cant be got from every servo, they may aswell ban 98 ron as not all servos have that too...

[Butters]

Andra are going to miss the boat with CSR

http://e-85.com.au/1376/targa-tasmania-goes-e85/

[Duncan]

hmm that is a bit of a PR job there from Targa. They also made E85 available at mt buller at only$3/l (ie 300% mark up on pump price). But that is of absolutely no use when we have to have standard injectors and fuel pumps - they are already running at capacity on unleaded so they will be at least 30% short running E85.

Having said that.....for non-production classes I reckon you'd be mad to run anything else, and it seems like a no-brainer to me for drag racing.

Guys, talking here as Aaron the licence holder, not the ANDRA steward, I think you will find, as it stands, the fuel is not a truly commercially available pump fuel atm. With it only being available from a selected few servo's on the east coast.

And the CSR/Manildra servo's are locked, you require a special card, for them to unlock it.

Also, the blend (pump) that makes up the other 15% varies from supplier to supplier, so how do you really know whats in it.

Also the Federal Department of Environment does not have a Standard for this fuel under the Fuel Standards Act 2000. It is not recognised as a gasoline because of the high level of ethanol, and is not recognised as ethanol because there is more than 10% which is the maximum level allowed in the current legislation.

Its good to see comments directly from Andra - but none of this makes sense. You happily let competitors run all sorts of fuels not available at any pumps (I am yet to see methanol or that roo stuff at a pump) so my guess is the real reason is that you are holding out for someone to pay ANDRA a fat fee for the rights (and if you let ethanol in for free, the people how paid up previousl would be up in arms).

Soon enough (year or 2) e85 will be all over the place. In my opinion the "green" claims of the fuel are rubbish but why not look at the substantially lower cost to your competitors compared to other fuels - and at the same time ban them in all but the top category to force costs down.

[Swiper the Fox]

hmm that is a bit of a PR job there from Targa. They also made E85 available at mt buller at only$3/l (ie 300% mark up on pump price). But that is of absolutely no use when we have to have standard injectors and fuel pumps - they are already running at capacity on unleaded so they will be at least 30% short running E85.

Having said that.....for non-production classes I reckon you'd be mad to run anything else, and it seems like a no-brainer to me for drag racing.

Its good to see comments directly from Andra - but none of this makes sense. You happily let competitors run all sorts of fuels not available at any pumps (I am yet to see methanol or that roo stuff at a pump) so my guess is the real reason is that you are holding out for someone to pay ANDRA a fat fee for the rights (and if you let ethanol in for free, the people how paid up previousl would be up in arms).

Soon enough (year or 2) e85 will be all over the place. In my opinion the "green" claims of the fuel are rubbish but why not look at the substantially lower cost to your competitors compared to other fuels - and at the same time ban them in all but the top category to force costs down.

Dunc's it sticks out like dogs nuts that VP fuels have pressured ANDRA into this...holding their cash for venue and event sponsorship as a ransom until their demands were met.

[Swiper the Fox]

Good news...while being fuel tested during an event today the ANDRA fuel testing officer informed me they have given approval for CSR E85 to be used in competition. I had a chat to Ben Bray about it who i know is also keen to use it in his 'MR 1200' datto ute. Benny heard during the week and immediately ordered a 205ltr drum for use at the 2nd round of the USA vs Aust Nitro funny car meet on the 16th Jan. Press release due this week.

Game on!