How To Modify A Skyline Right To Avoid Defects!

[Spunky Munky]

So I've contracted a mechanic to 'fix' my car to WRC purposes. It's such a kick in the balls. CBF but has to be done.

[saliya]

As most of us know, some of the modifications to our cars is simply not permitted by road laws, so is there actually a way (besides leaving the car stock) to modify our cars legally and get an engineer's certificate?

You need to find out what the process is in your state.

For example, in NSW, modifications beyond a certain 'level' require an engineering cert.

My car is engineered and is legal in NSW. It has an extensive list of modifications (basically custom inlet to tailpipe).

To get it engineered firstly I got the list of Engineering Signatories from the NSW RTA, talked to a number of them till I found one I liked,

discussed with him my proposed mods and whether he would sign off on them, made the mods, had him inspect, and got the cert.

Victoria seems to be the similar - make more than 1 inlet modification, or make engine management and/or boost modifications, and you need a VASS cert.

In that sense Victoria is more lenient about mods than NSW (you cannot put a pod on in NSW without a cert).

Where emissions are affected (e.g. ECU, pod, injectors, cams, etc) in both states you must pass an emissions test.

In NSW, the IM240 test is administered free of charge, and can be passed by cars with nonstandard ECUs etc (talk to Hitman).

In Victoria, the emissions test is administered by only a couple of companies and costs a couple of thousand dollars a go.

If you could guarantee you would pass on the first attempt a $2k additional cost on top of the $50k you have already spent is not ridiculous.

It might cost you $2k to put the car back to standard...

The VASS I spoke to seemed inclined to think that any nonstandard ECU would not be able to pass the test on my car.

I don't know why; because any current ECU is more than 15 years newer than my stock R32 GTR ECU

However, the VASS list is a long one and there may be another person that's less gloomy.

I did not find out anything about the criteria of the Vic test; but then I only spent 5 mins on the phone with a VASS.

You would probably need to speak to the companies that administer the test to find out what they test for. It should be

documented somewhere.

VASS list http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyre...t30Sept2009.pdf

Cheers,

Saliya

[bozodos]

so basically either get it engineered or keep it on the downlow.

TBQH, the only cop who's ever noticed my Microtech with dash display was a TMU cop who was worded up by the EPA tester from melbourne (who also knew what to look for in terms of aftermarket injectors, FPR, turbo etc).

It's a pain in the arse, but I'm going the route of having a free flowing, quiet exhaust, boring looking turbo, and a standard but remapped ECU to avoid any more $500 EPA fines and to not give the police an excuse to defect or harass me. The easiest thing to do is to not have it stupidly low or insanely loud, or any garish bodykits then you're less likely to get attention to start with.

[R31Nismoid]

You need to find out what the process is in your state.

For example, in NSW, modifications beyond a certain 'level' require an engineering cert.

My car is engineered and is legal in NSW. It has an extensive list of modifications (basically custom inlet to tailpipe).

To get it engineered firstly I got the list of Engineering Signatories from the NSW RTA, talked to a number of them till I found one I liked,

discussed with him my proposed mods and whether he would sign off on them, made the mods, had him inspect, and got the cert.

Victoria seems to be the similar - make more than 1 inlet modification, or make engine management and/or boost modifications, and you need a VASS cert.

In that sense Victoria is more lenient about mods than NSW (you cannot put a pod on in NSW without a cert).

Where emissions are affected (e.g. ECU, pod, injectors, cams, etc) in both states you must pass an emissions test.

The VASS I spoke to seemed inclined to think that any nonstandard ECU would not be able to pass the test on my car.

I don't know why; because any current ECU is more than 15 years newer than my stock R32 GTR ECU

However, the VASS list is a long one and there may be another person that's less gloomy.

Cheers,

Saliya

Please be careful - a VASS does not cover EPA. The EPA restriction is ONE intake mod.

A VASS does not overrule the EPA.

All a VASS engineer is going to do is check the exhaust noise level and basic emissions. However this does not mean you are EPA compliant.

VASS is more about mechanical mods, conversions, safety than emissions as they do not carry the proper equipment to test.

The FULL emissions certification in Vic borders on the impossible to attain. It can be done, but from what the EPA have told me the test is 4 figures in value, if you fail you have to pay that sum again and again until it's correct or just giveup and perform your mods in a smart manner like some people do

[saliya]

Please be careful - a VASS does not cover EPA. The EPA restriction is ONE intake mod.

A VASS does not overrule the EPA.

All a VASS engineer is going to do is check the exhaust noise level and basic emissions. However this does not mean you are EPA compliant.

VASS is more about mechanical mods, conversions, safety than emissions as they do not carry the proper equipment to test.

The FULL emissions certification in Vic borders on the impossible to attain. It can be done, but from what the EPA have told me the test is 4 figures in value, if you fail you have to pay that sum again and again until it's correct or just giveup and perform your mods in a smart manner like some people do

Sorry, that's a crock.

The emissions requirements are emissions requirements (regardless of who they are measured/administered by).

They _cannot_ be "one rule for x, another rule for y" because in that case one must overrule the other.

The EPA definitions (http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/air/vehicles/default.asp for Victoria) do not describe "one intake mod".

They describe a set of emissions that is permissible for the vehicle based on age and emissions requirements as of that age.

They _do_ describe a basic set of rules/guidelines that may be applied as general rules (http://epanote2.epa.vic.gov.au/EPA/Publications.nsf/2f1c2625731746aa4a256ce90001cbb5/c90ec843f3bbbe8fca256d9f00181c59/$FILE/1031.pdf)

but once again they cannot describe a set of procedures; all they can describe is a set of "this is what allowed as emissions from the vehicle".

From that document:

"Any modification is permitted provided that it can be shown, by way of test or engineering reason, to show that the modification would not be expected to cause an increase in emissions beyond a similar, unmodified vehicle".

What someone (Vic SAU members?) should do is get an unmodified Skyline tested for use as a benchmark.

Regards,

Saliya

[R31Nismoid]

Yawn...

From that document:

"Any modification is permitted provided that it can be shown, by way of test or engineering reason, to show that the modification would not be expected to cause an increase in emissions beyond a similar, unmodified vehicle".

What someone (Vic SAU members?) should do is get an unmodified Skyline tested for use as a benchmark.

You have clearly not read the footnote.

The footnote states as follows:

Test procedures used for demonstrating compliance must be to the ADR applicable to the vehicle model. A simple exhaust emission test at idle, steady speeds or using an IM240 procedure is not acceptable.

You must go through the ENTIRE ADR testing process to prove it.

Which leads into this...

Non-original electronic chips or computers, whether fitted as a direct replacement or in a ‘piggy-back’ configuration, are not permitted to be used in an engine management system unless it can be demonstrated that their installation and use allows the vehicle to meet the appropriate ADR. They must also be sealed or otherwise constructed so as not to be reprogrammable..

So you now need...

1. FULL ADR testing

2. Provide a ECU that cannot be reprogrammed or construct (i can only think of welding up the consult port as a solution, something that no-one will do to a $2000 ECU)

Good luck with the first one, but the second one makes it even more impossible as the term is so broad it basically covers any ECU on the market.

I also believe from EPA advice that a simple "password" protected ECU still counts as reprogrammable.

What does this mean?

The process utterly pointless for skyline owners.

It will cost you a likely amount of $3,000-$4,000 to get approval give/take. So about say... 30% of the average skyline's value.

Skyline owners also demographically speaking keep their cars for 2-4 years, are 18-24 and are not high income earners (based on 600 victorian members over 5 years).

So why on earth would someone spend 4k on making 4k worth of mods legal when the cars value is $15,000 give/take. Pointless.

Even more pointless if you FAIL the test the first time, suddenly you are 4k in the red, nothing to show for it... Pointless.

Considering in any other state you can be made legal for around $500... Getting EPA compliant via ADR's in Victoria... Pointless.

As for the rest of it... i'll make it even simpler.

you may have a pod filter or

modified/added intercooler, but not both.

So indeed there is one rule for "X" and one rule for "Y". Depending on what category you fit into.

X = not skyline owners = Full ADR Testing. If you pass this you can basically have whatever you want.

Y = skyline owners = All the rules in the Guide (and larger version the EPA can supply). Which includes the... one intake mod, BOV setups, plenums, manifolds etc etc.

The normal $600-$700 VASS certificate will not cover emissions. Fact.

The only time a VASS will cover emissions is if you already have the ADR tests done and approved separetely to the VASS Test, they will include this in the cert.

The VASS test takes all of 1-2hrs usually.

Also a key point here to understand is aVASS Cert is only valid for 28 days. It will not stop you from being defected 29 days later based on "suspicion" which is ALL Victoria Police need to report you for EPA's.

A pointless excercise for most skyline owners to emission approve their cars in Victoria via ADR/VASS/whatever

My Advice: Same as it always has been.

Go get a VASS for the mechanical side to get registered/defect cleared if required.

For the emission side, just mod your car smartly in line with the EPA rules.

There are key flaws in the Victorian laws, but hey, it'll never change. Too many people make money out of them at the moment.

[saliya]

Yawn...

So sorry to be boring you - perhaps it's time for a nap?

You have clearly not read the footnote.

The footnote states as follows:

"Test procedures used for demonstrating compliance must be to the ADR applicable to the vehicle model. A simple exhaust emission test at idle, steady speeds or using an IM240 procedure is not acceptable."

This simply states that the car must comply with the relevant ADR.

With respect to the EPA, we're pretty much talking about "other emissions" (currently ADR79 IIRC) and "noise" (currently ADR83, once again IIRC).

Different ADRs may apply dependent on year of vehicle manufacture.

So you now need...

1. FULL ADR testing

2. Provide a ECU that cannot be reprogrammed or construct (i can only think of welding up the consult port as a solution, something that no-one will do to a $2000 ECU)

Since virtually all current OEM ECUs are reprogrammable (with the requisite knowledge) I can't see the EPA actually prosecuting an owner simply for having a programmable ECU. Pandora's box and all that.

Feel free to point me towards an actual case that proves otherwise (i.e. the EPA prosecuting and convicting a vehicle owner solely for having a reprogrammable ECU).

Prosecuting for vehicles that don't meet emission standards, well, that's another matter; but there seems to be a dearth of EPA v foo cases like this too.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinosrch...evance&max=

It will cost you a likely amount of $3,000-$4,000 to get approval give/take. So about say... 30% of the average skyline's value.

The cost-for-testing is debatable; but let's assume $4k (double what I was told by the VASS, but let's let that slide for the moment).

The OP quoted a figure of $50k for his car. 4/54 is about 7.5%; perhaps this would be acceptable for him to be legal. That's up to him.

However, the question being answered is "how do I legally modify my car" not "how do I legally modify my car for less than x% of its value".

Skyline owners also demographically speaking ...

<snip stuff that, while very interesting, is irrelevant to this discussion>

X = not skyline owners = Full ADR Testing. If you pass this you can basically have whatever you want.

Y = skyline owners = All the rules in the Guide (and larger version the EPA can supply). Which includes the... one intake mod, BOV setups, plenums, manifolds etc etc.

X = Skyline owners if they choose. Legal mods, OPs question asked and answered. Need this discussion continue?

There are key flaws in the Victorian laws, but hey, it'll never change. Too many people make money out of them at the moment.

Well, things won't change if nobody does anything about them. Funny, that.

I wonder whether any existing body might be placed to make representations to the relevant authorities regarding changing things?

Perhaps some type of Australian and/or Victorian Skyline-related organisation?

Of course, the executive and/or president of that organisation would need to be motivated enough to try

Regards,

Saliya

[.:: GimpS-R34 ::.]

i've brewed up popcorn and lucky i bought a camper chair

*subscribed

[tomymmac]

IMHO if the BOV to atmo is not legal in your state... you ARE a dickhead for having one... don't want trouble? Obey teh laws!

hahahaha, Atmo BOV's are homo you obvioulsy have no concept of stealth, let me guess ohmmmmyy god pod filettteerrr, why bother. Two things cops will get you for:

a) driving like a tosser and then wondering why they defect you for the aids that you have craply placed in you engine bay.

b) becuase you car looks like it belongs on www.barryboys.co.uk and stands out like herpes on your mouth after a night in Hornsby NSW.

[bozodos]

god this almost makes me think twice about switching my rego to victoria :s

[.:: GimpS-R34 ::.]

don't stop here.. this is vic country lol

[R31Nismoid]

The initial question was:

How to modify a skyline RIGHT and avoid defects.

There is no mention of legally... so most of your points are larely irrelevant as it can be done without having to do it legally.

There was a subsequent question about doing it legally, which simply is not viable for the common person once you outline what is involved (as per below).

4k was including the test, ECU, extensive tuning and pre-testing as best you can etc etc.

Also remember that if you fail, it is another $2,000... No-one will "lend" you the equipment to have a pre-check, they will charge you for it.

$2,000 is a lot of money to gamble, as that's exactly what it is, a gamble.

Spending 50k does not mean something is worth 50k. Although im sure if the OP performed a slightly more accurate tally it would be signifigantly lower.

Kevin just got a bit excited in his first post i suspect

OEM ECU's that i've been in contact with, are not programmable. That is, until they are hacked.

Once they are hacked, they are no longer OEM. Sorry but your argument there has no relevance.

There is no "case" to prove otherwise... why? Because the laws are clear and simple. To try a court case is ultimately stupid and doomed to fail from the outset.

Nothing about proving it, its the point that no-one is dumb enough to try.

Also, i think you missed the point where the VASS is only valid for 28 days. Yes you might have the ADR approval, but i tell you for a fact - it will not stop the police from reporting you. There is no need for them to pull you over, they can just sight your car and base a report on suspicion.

... Then it is upto you to take them to court to beat the defect/notice and so on. This is all time, money and effort.

Suddenly the 4k (if your gamble pays off the first time) has grown in costs, heartache, effort, time and so on.

What is the overall cost? More than just more money.

Virtually all modification is illegal under the various laws until otherwise approved. There are exceptions, but they are very limited is the ultimate point.

There is a right way and a wrong way to make modifications and fly under the radar of legalities, to address the initial question.

They are simple & easy.

Considering you can use Nissan OEM for just about everything and still make 380rwkw if you know what you are doing...

A cost of $4,000 + whatever, is not a reasonable solution when you can STILL get defected.

It takes you about... 45mins to take off the parts to get legal if you follow what i've learnt, and 45mins hardly eats into a day.

I will not go into detailing how, if Kevin want's to find out - he can come along to a SAU-Vic club meeting and buy me a beer. I often have long chats with people about these issues and many are surprised at how far you can actually go and still fly under the radar or taking that lovely gamble that is ADR testing.

Oh... lastly... Do not sit there and crap on about my motivation & or clubs position, bit of a cheap shot.

SAU-Vic certainly does not have the funding or time available to undertake such a momentus task.

We are not a bunch of bored mothers group with nothing better to do, also we have financial interests of members to look after. Those interests would not allow us to invest signifigant time and money for what at the end of the day is a laregly uphill battle... to think so is fanciful at best.

I know the laws, i know how they work in the real world. I've had plenty of EPA's, VASS's, Defects and what loopholes exist within them.

Theory is good sometimes, practice is better in this instance.

[R31Nismoid]

god this almost makes me think twice about switching my rego to victoria :s

You'll be fine - there are more 'loopholes' that given your location, will not really have any EPA repercussions for you mate.

I'm looking into doing a similar thing for my car and still keep Vic rego

You know how to get a hold of me if ya need more info on that

[saliya]

Glad to see you're no longer bored! Everyone else, popcorn time

The initial question was:

How to modify a skyline RIGHT and avoid defects.

There is no mention of legally... so most of your points are larely irrelevant as it can be done without having to do it legally.

There was a subsequent question about doing it legally, which simply is not viable for the common person once you outline what is involved (as per below).

<snip>

It takes you about... 45mins to take off the parts to get legal if you follow what i've learnt, and 45mins hardly eats into a day.

That is, you have not avoided the defect. Oops. Am I going too fast?

4k was including the test, ECU, extensive tuning and pre-testing as best you can etc etc.

Also remember that if you fail, it is another $2,000... No-one will "lend" you the equipment to have a pre-check, they will charge you for it.

$2,000 is a lot of money to gamble, as that's exactly what it is, a gamble.

It doesn't really matter what the figure is; just that a figure exists.

I agree, $2k is a lot of money to pay without a guarantee of success! But such is the system.

OEM ECU's that i've been in contact with, are not programmable. That is, until they are hacked.

As an example, the MY08-MY09 Subaru OEM ECU can be reflashed, meaning it is programmable.

Whether the OEM intended this to happen and distributes units to their dealers to achieve this; or whether it is done by someone else (e.g.Cobb's AccessPort);

or whether it is a violation of the terms of distribution (because it's not supposed to be reprogrammed) is irrelevant - it's still programmable.

Once they are hacked, they are no longer OEM. Sorry but your argument there has no relevance.

The ECU itself is still OEM. The settings on it are not. I hate analogies, but probably the closest is the PC -

if, one day, you load new software your PC you still have the same PC but it does different things.

The Pandora's box I was referring to is:

* If the EPA were to try to convict a person of an offence because they used reprogrammable engine management;

* And reprogrammable engine management is used in a car available for purchase in Australia

* Then all drivers of that car are committing a similar offence and therefore should be tried also.

Since there is a car with programmable management sold (regardless of how it is reprogrammable), I doubt that the EPA will be opening that particular box.

Also, i think you missed the point where the VASS is only valid for 28 days. Yes you might have the ADR approval, but i tell you for a fact - it will not stop the police from reporting you. There is no need for them to pull you over, they can just sight your car and base a report on suspicion.

I didn't miss it. I think you did

According to VicRoads it is valid for 30 days ( http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/RoadSa...ficatesVASS.htm ) but that's not really important.

The important part is not that the VASS cert "expires" in 30 days and thereafter you are a police target; the point is that you have 30 days to present your VASS to VicRoads for addition to your registration.

I would assume that the approval/cert then becomes "permanently attached" to your registration, same as in NSW.

I'd also be very surprised if an officer (having looked up your rego on their on-board computer and seen that your car has approval for e.g. a pod filter) would issue a defect notice citing that filter.

Virtually all modification is illegal under the various laws until otherwise approved. There are exceptions, but they are very limited is the ultimate point.

Hence, the VASS system.

There is a right way and a wrong way to make modifications and fly under the radar of legalities, to address the initial question.

They are simple & easy.

Paraphrased answers to the OP's question:

a) "There are some ways you can modify your Skyline and maybe not get caught/defected; and if you do get defected, then it's easy to reverse them".

b) "Here is a way that you can legally modify your Skyline in Victoria and thereby avoid defects".

Which of these answers do you think answers the question properly (hint: it's not (a))

Oh... lastly... Do not sit there and crap on about my motivation & or clubs position, bit of a cheap shot.

SAU-Vic certainly does not have the funding or time available to undertake such a momentus task.

We are not a bunch of bored mothers group with nothing better to do, also we have financial interests of members to look after. Those interests would not allow us to invest signifigant time and money for what at the end of the day is a laregly uphill battle... to think so is fanciful at best.

Nobody's "crapping on" about your motivation. Your opinion (that things will never change) was clearly stated by you. This is the antithesis of motivation.

And I'm not having a go at SAU Vic either; in fact, I'm suggesting that SAU Vic might be the ideal vehicle to use to try to get sensible changes made.

I have no idea why you think my opinion of SAU Vic is "bored mothers"; but I can assure you I do not have an opinion of the SAU Vic membership one way or the other (mainly because I don't personally know any SAU Vic'ers).

I'm sure you're a great bunch of guys/girls.

I know the laws, i know how they work in the real world. I've had plenty of EPA's, VASS's, Defects and what loopholes exist within them.

Perhaps if you'd had the proper paperwork you wouldn't have had all this experience with being defected? Just a thought.

Regards,

Saliya

[R31Nismoid]

You can mod and avoid defects - accept it or not is upto you.

End of the day getting ADR emissions approval can make you legal, but the excercise is pointless, risky and will not stop you being DEFECTED.

So which is the better option? Go about it smartly, only change what you have to get there, nice and simple fix.

Theory vs Practice. Practice (and practicallity) wins.

After the VASS expiry, any officer can simply report you in the citation of "you could have changed it", which is twice now a key point you seem to be unable to process.

It does happen, has happened, will happen again. I am one of those such people. So be surprised, it is not surprising for us who actually live here.

Theory vs Practice. Practice wins again.

The O in OEM stands for original. If you have modified something from it's original state, it is no longer original now is it?

Just because it looks the same means nothing.

For the rest, bring your "theories" down here, and then see how they go in the practice department.

Anyone who's lived in Vic for any reasonable about of time will understand what i say, and how the system actually works in reality as opposed to what some law book tells you.

My ways and methods are cheaper, simpler, more realistic and achieveable. Your paper solutions are more costly, not realistically attainable and and the end of the day, do not stop you being defected.

[MSTRshenanigans]

hahahaha, Atmo BOV's are homo you obvioulsy have no concept of stealth, let me guess ohmmmmyy god pod filettteerrr, why bother. Two things cops will get you for:

a) driving like a tosser and then wondering why they defect you for the aids that you have craply placed in you engine bay.

b) becuase you car looks like it belongs on www.barryboys.co.uk and stands out like herpes on your mouth after a night in Hornsby NSW.

wtf does that have to do with my post.... no concept of stealth does not change the legality of it lol FYI I have semi boxed pod...

Those are 2 ways to attract them into pulling you over, you can add to that blow off noise (phsshshshshshshsh) lol

My point, that you clearly missed, in my comment was if you have an illegal mod then you deserve the fine, full stop, thanks for coming, try the veal =P

[saliya]

Wow.

Just.

Wow.

You've been presented with the correct (legal) answer and all supporting documentation.

You've had the problems with your answer highlighted to you point-by-point.

Your position hasn't changed.

To recap:

you're suggesting that the OP does not attempt to make their car legal; rather that the changes they make be easily-reversible in case of being defected.

In addition to being guaranteed defectable, there are insurance implications that you may not have considered (e.g. my policy says any street-legal modifications are OK).

Your contention is that regardless of whether they follow the rules or not, any modification can/will result in them being defected anyway, so why bother with the trouble/expense.

I'm suggesting they follow the documented VicRoads procedure to legally modify their vehicle.

If they get a narky cop, this will not guarantee that they are undefectable; but it should go a long way towards it.

My contention is that "following the rules" will result in a drastically-reduced or zero chance of a defect notice being issued.

It has been my experience that in NSW, following the (similar-to-Vic) rules has resulted in exactly what the OP wants - a street-legal, modified vehicle.

Since 2006 I have been pulled over several times for random breath tests and on more than one occasion have been asked to pop the hood.

I'm sure the police have on their computers if not a complete copy of my engineering cert, at the very minimum a 'modified vehicle' tag somewhere.

I have been asked to show the engineering paperwork to exactly one police officer.

Finally, if "it could have been changed from the VASS" is acceptable, I'm sure you see that logically, there is no 28-day window of protection.

It could have been changed right after the report was issued.

I'm prepared to believe you got defected for something which you had engineered. Perhaps you didn't pass the policeman's attitude test?

Please state, for the record (preferably with scans):

Who issued you with the VASS, when was it issued, and what items did it contain?

Who issued you with the defect notice, when was it issued, and what items did it contain?

What did you do to clear the defect notice, and when did you clear it?

Regards,

Saliya

[R31Nismoid]

Of course my position has not changed. Why would it?

You can produce 100 pieces of paper... that is really nice...

but...

Will it stop Police from defecting you & reporting you to the EPA? No.

Will it stop the harrasement? No.

Oh dear. So why bother going to the absurd lengths of ADR testing - only to be defected again? Quite simply - you don't bother.

I looked into the whole ADR Emissions thing years ago, and never did it - why?

Because i have better odd's of making good on $2000 in a casino than with a ADR test that you can fail for a simple thing. Fail one test, you need to produce another $2,000.

I don't know about you but potentially throwing away $1,000's of dollars at a gamble does not really interest me no matter how good the odd's are.

Until there is a reasonable testing option, and the laws for Police regarding how they can defect cars changes... i will never waste my time with ADR's in Vic.

And if you think the laws will change, forget it. With the hoon mentality these days, no laws relating to defective vehicles will be changed.

There is no "flag" on the Police system here saying "ADR APPROVED". There is no modified vehicle tag or anything else.

There is also no "zero" chance, nor are defects "drastically reduced". You do not live here. You know what is on the paper, not what is in real life. End of story im afraid.

Until you have seen the real life scenario's placed upon Victorian's by the flaws in the laws where by a car can be defected without even needing to talk to the driver, you paper arguments count for nothing but a courtroom.

Back 6 years ago i was not working many hours, had plenty of time to just dick around with the legal system and spend hours waiting around a courthouse to get a defect reversed.

However if the defect is something that can be fixed in less than 1hr, i will do any day of the week and move on.

As for the old VASS/Court doco's etc. 6 years+ now... lol... pretty safe to say they are in the bin. Could have been the recycled dunny paper i had to use today.

[saliya]

Of course my position has not changed. Why would it?

I don't know. Oh wait - I do. It's because you're... wrong.

Oh dear. So why bother going to the absurd lengths of ADR testing - only to be defected again? Quite simply - you don't bother.

I looked into the whole ADR Emissions thing years ago, and never did it - why?

Wait. So your personal, practical experience with this particular issue, in Victoria, is nonexistent.

That makes personal, practical experience with this particular issue, in Victoria, just as good as yours (nonexistent).

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

There is no "flag" on the Police system here saying "ADR APPROVED". There is no modified vehicle tag or anything else.

Have you seen the data displayed on their systems when calling up the details of a car? See, the way you talk sounds like you have.

As for the old VASS/Court doco's etc. 6 years+ now... lol... pretty safe to say they are in the bin. Could have been the recycled dunny paper i had to use today.

OK, so we have no actual evidence. Do you happen to remember:

Who issued you with the VASS, when was it issued, and what items did it contain?

Who issued you with the defect notice, when was it issued, and what items did it contain?

(I'm of course interested in whether what you got defected for was on your VASS documentation).

Which court did you go to? When?

There is also no "zero" chance, nor are defects "drastically reduced". You do not live here. You know what is on the paper, not what is in real life. End of story im afraid.

Until you have seen the real life scenario's placed upon Victorian's by the flaws in the laws where by a car can be defected without even needing to talk to the driver, you paper arguments count for nothing but a courtroom.

No, I do not live in Victoria. My personal practical experience with road-registration of a modified vehicle is in NSW (as I have said all along).

The documented VicRoads process is so similar to the NSW process (replace 'VASS' with 'Engineering Signatory' and they'd be almost identical) that I think I can be forgiven for extrapolating the results In Real Life.

So what we have here is VicRoads saying one thing, and R31Nismoid saying "no, that's not how it works in real life".

Once again, please provide evidence to back up your say-so. More than happy to be proven wrong if it benefits the community.

Incidentally, "Because R31Nismoid says so" isn't evidence/proof.

Regards,

Saliya

[R31Nismoid]

Wait. So your personal, practical experience with this particular issue, in Victoria, is nonexistent.

That makes personal, practical experience with this particular issue, in Victoria, just as good as yours (nonexistent).

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I didnt realise that knowing exactly how the Police and EPA operate, having been through it many times, was not experience.

Better contact Oxford Dictionaries about that ASAP!

Have you seen the data displayed on their systems when calling up the details of a car? See, the way you talk sounds like you have.

I have been told by officers of the law what they have access to when they bring up your rego. It is very very limited detail and from what they tell me does not go into that level of detail.

I'm inclinded to believe their word for it. I have no reason to believe otherwise afterall.

Sorry i can't be like you and question everything, i do have a faith in people's word.

OK, so we have no actual evidence. Do you happen to remember:

Who issued you with the VASS, when was it issued, and what items did it contain?

Who issued you with the defect notice, when was it issued, and what items did it contain?

(I'm of course interested in whether what you got defected for was on your VASS documentation).

Which court did you go to? When?

You know what... I remember who performed a VASS cert from 2002.

I also remember the number on the defect notice. The exact time on the defect notice. The officers name, number and rank on the defect notice.

I even remember the judge's name and how old he/she was and the colour of socks that was worn that day, hell i even remember what colour my own socks were

If you expect someone to remember the intricate details of something that occured about 6 years ago... no problems, but i do not have them. Simple really. Either accept, or don't.

I couldn't care less.

I know what occured, it was against the VASS as it was over ADR rulings, to which i was not in breach of.

No, I do not live in Victoria.

So don't talk about experience, you have none.

So what we have here is VicRoads saying one thing, and R31Nismoid saying "no, that's not how it works in real life".

Once again, please provide evidence to back up your say-so. More than happy to be proven wrong if it benefits the community.

Incidentally, "Because R31Nismoid says so" isn't evidence/proof.

Correction. VicRoads saying one thing, the Police doing another. Any Victorian will tell you that is rather a common occurence.

I honestly don't care if you don't believe me though dude. Not my problem.