Performance Car Of The Year

[fungoolie]

Fungoolie, I wasn't disputing your choice of the R35...dollars do decide all. I was just disputing why you thought the ZR1 had failings in the design of it. iPod vs Walkman: what if the iPod was the same size / physically larger than the Walkman and produced on-par...but for most tests...slightly lesser sound quality, yet for a cheaper cost? Now assuming I can afford either, do I still go with the newer technology? Is it that much better than the old? If at all? We usually associate the word fail with something significantly lesser than the alternative...might be different in your use but I'm still not seeing fail in the ZR1.

ZR-1 Failings:

OK lets start with:

JUST pips the GT-R at the Nurburgring in the hands of of expert drivers but needs an extra 130KW to do so. I'd say I'd be faster in the GTR no ifs or buts. And lets not even start to imagine driving it quickly in the wet.

Two seat design.

American build quality.

Low rent interior including bad seats and terrible steering wheel.

And all this for JUST twice the price of the GT-R in Aus and 40% more in its country of origin.

You would need to have your head read to choose this over the GT-R IF you apply any sort of value for money philosophy to your purchase. Just as I chose not to buy a 10 year old Ferrari with the same money as my GT-R cost I saw the GT-R as the best value for money option for ME. And I've also described the failings for ME. The 2 seat design being a show stopper, (read failing), for my circumstances. Lets just see how many ZR-1s are sold in Oz for $300K plus compared with the number of GT-Rs. Then we'll see if the general supercar buying populace agrees with me or not.

And as the guys at Willall are demonstrating, some cheap and simple mods get these cars lapping SIGNIFICANTLY faster around our home grown tracks. I'm not sure where you'd go on the Vette to make it lap faster. Maybe 1000HP?

My point is that it doesn't require much in the way of innovation to make a car fast on a power circuit by strapping a rocket motor under the bonnet. And I prefer an elegant solution to one of brute force. I prefer European sports car finesse over American muscle car philosophy unless I'm drag racing of course. Horses for courses. I'm just not into the "get a bigger hammer" approach on these types of cars. You can start dissecting my hammer metaphor with your axe or scalpel or whatever you choose as your weapon of choice

I can only imagine what the GT-R would do with the Vette's 650 HP....

And I'm bowing out of this thread in case it starts getting personal as I've observed from some other posts. All Max_ST-R did was agree with me. I can't judge as there may be bad blood there but I'd rather get out before it gets to that stage as it so easily can. Who needs the agro when all your in it for is some open discussion...

[nickcorr]

Your not supposed to talk about that issue...

Ze Germans haf spies everywhere...

For example I happen to know that a BMW Aus press car suffered a transmission failure (an M5), replacement cost was $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!

[bozodos]

Just don't mention the war!

Oh and mainstream motoring mag journos tend to be full of shit; anything with a broad, generally middle aged reader base like Motor, Drive etc, always lauds anything Euro whilst bashing the GT-R.

Edited December 14, 2009 by bozodos

[Birds]

ZR-1 Failings:

OK lets start with:

JUST pips the GT-R at the Nurburgring in the hands of of expert drivers (GMC dev. engineer Jim Mero vs Nissan test driver / ex racing driver Toshio Suzuki? Are you sure about that one?) but needs an extra 130KW to do so. I'd say I'd be faster in the GTR no ifs or buts. And lets not even start to imagine driving it quickly in the wet. GTR just keeps up with but needs all wheel drive and a clutchless gearbox to do so? Are you really that blind to everything the GTR has helping it out in this contest?

Two seat design. Forever the shortcoming of supercars. How on earth did every supercar manufacturer before Nissan forget about that niche market of 2.5 kids who can afford a supercar but not also the family sedan to carry the kiddies around in?

American build quality. Yep, the internet is littered with stories of the ZR1 transmission falling to bits. Actually, now that I think about it...

Low rent interior including bad seats and terrible steering wheel. Subjective, so I'll give you this one because it's aesthetics and you know my choice already. Agree to disagree on that one.

And all this for JUST twice the price of the GT-R in Aus and 40% more in its country of origin.

You would need to have your head read to choose this over the GT-R IF you apply any sort of value for money philosophy to your purchase. Just as I chose not to buy a 10 year old Ferrari with the same money as my GT-R cost I saw the GT-R as the best value for money option for ME. And I've also described the failings for ME. The 2 seat design being a show stopper, (read failing), for my circumstances. Lets just see how many ZR-1s are sold in Oz for $300K plus compared with the number of GT-Rs. Then we'll see if the general supercar buying populace agrees with me or not. Comparing both cars inside Australia...that's a moot point if you want to talk price. The difference being the GTR starting off RHD and officially imported by Nissan as opposed to the RHD conversion on a grey/personal import ZR1. That's not a failing of the ZR1. Question, is it US30k better than the GTR? Hell yes. On looks alone...but I digress, that's also subjective. I'm just certain the public consensus would swing towards the Vette in a beauty competition.

And as the guys at Willall are demonstrating, some cheap and simple mods get these cars lapping SIGNIFICANTLY faster around our home grown tracks. I'm not sure where you'd go on the Vette to make it lap faster. Maybe 1000HP? Why not? Do you really think during the straight areas of the ring the ZR1 was sitting on its tractive limits? And make no mistakes, the GTR wasn't killing the ZR1 in the corners only to lose it on the straights.

My point is that it doesn't require much in the way of innovation to make a car fast on a power circuit by strapping a rocket motor under the bonnet.Suppose I can stick a 700hp big block chev under an XF ute and hope for the best around the Nurburgring. Might turn one corner if I'm lucky. All you demonstrate to me is the typical ignorance that many Jap-tech fans hold towards American automotive engineering. And I prefer an elegant solution to one of brute force. I prefer European sports car finesse over American muscle car philosophy unless I'm drag racing of course. Horses for courses. I'm just not into the "get a bigger hammer" approach on these types of cars. You can start dissecting my hammer metaphor with your axe or scalpel or whatever you choose as your weapon of choice Well I agree, horses for courses. ZR1 for drag. I'd take the GTR for circuit myself as I'm hardly a good driver around the corners...but that's my failing, not the ZR1...which has no issues around the bends in good hands.

I can only imagine what the GT-R would do with the Vette's 650 HP....Now it's starting to sound like one of those supercars.net "put 20k into the Supra etc. threads...

And I'm bowing out of this thread in case it starts getting personal as I've observed from some other posts. All Max_ST-R did was agree with me. I can't judge as there may be bad blood there but I'd rather get out before it gets to that stage as it so easily can. Who needs the agro when all your in it for is some open discussion... I keep personal off the internet; it's a moot point. I simply didn't want his opinion because I asked specifically for yours and oddly I knew exactly how his post was going to read before seeing it. I thank you for your responses and leave it at that. Good day/night to you.

Fixed. Changes are in bold.

[STATUS]

you pull more chicks in a R8 though, thats worth the extra dough .

[Godcla]

you pull more chicks in a R8 though, thats worth the extra dough .

Phantom black R8 last week driving in the opposite direction....Very nice Machinery.....

[fungoolie]

Forever the shortcoming of supercars. How on earth did every supercar manufacturer before Nissan forget about that niche market of 2.5 kids who can afford a supercar but not also the family sedan to carry the kiddies around in?

Well I'm not the only GT-R I've spotted on this forum with a baby seat in the back. Couple others from memory. That's why I started this thread in the first place. I was amazed that Motor magazine could bag the GT-R for having a SMALL back seat when the R8 had NONE! They weren't criticizing it for CHOOSING to have a back seat, just because it was on the tight side when it's competitor couldn't even attempt to seat anyone in the back. And yes I do have a family wagon for the kids but on the days I do have to take the kids it's so nice to be able to drive the car that I'd prefer to drive! Don't facetiously discount this market. Because, guess what, Nissan's not the only company that was "stupid" enough to consider putting four seats in a supercar.

Lets see:

Porsche

Panamera

911

928

Mclaren

F1 (OK it's really a three seater but still better than 2)

Ferrari

166 Inter (1948)

212 Inter (1951)

250 GT 2+2

330 GT 2+2 (1964)

365 GT 2+2 (1967)

365 GT4 2+2 (1972)

412 (1985)

456 GT (1992)

456M GTA (1998)

612 Scaglietti (2004)

And now to add insult to injury, a 2+2 version of the fastest car in the world, the Bugatti Royale....

Oh how could they!!

Perhaps if other mass producers of cars had the balls to develop a practical super car like Nissan did, they would be cheaper for everyone and not just be toys the super rich to get to drive and for less well off people to have wet dreams over. I applaud Nissan for developing this car. I was NOT a Nissan fan until this car came along. It swayed and won me. Simple as that. I'm not biased by some blind loyalty to Nissan because I owned a 180B and then progressed to an R32 etc etc. I even have an XC Falcon hardtop in the garage which until recently had a 460 big block in it so I appreciate that there are different means of achieving different objectives. I give credit where it's due and for someone to use their resources in such a way as to deliver a value for money product to the market that achieves the goals it sets out to by whichever means possible including AWD and clutchless gearboxes then I will sit up and take notice. If you're happy to blow an extra US$30K on old tech that would have had a fraction of the R&D Nissan spent on developing the GT-R then good luck to you. I'm happy you're doing your bit to reduce that $70 Bill that the US Gov had to inject into GM and not me.

[Birds]

Didn't say 4 seats was crap, check out my first post in this thread...I actually support the GTR having it and was critical of Motor's decision to criticise it. But it sure as he'll isn't a failing of the ZR1 or any other 2 seat supercar for that matter. But it is also nice to think that superdad can't take his kids with him on a spirited drive around the crests. Yes because GM is the only American manufacturer struggling within their recession. And Japanese vehicles depreciating to 30% of their RRP after 3 years has nothing to do with the oversold new car market in Japan.

[LSX-438]

I usually have a baby seat in the back of my R35. We do have another car for family duties but there are times when i need to transport the kids around too. Mum can't do it all by herself, all the time. The alternative (two seater) means i would need yet another car - i have done that before (three cars) and frankly i think it's ridiculous.

[Gibbo_R35]

I completely agree with Duncan, I have two young children and the GTR is the perfect car for me. However I love the ZR-1, I love the R8, I love the DBS, however they all only have two seats.

For all these arguments there is one fact, everyones tastes and needs are different.

One magazine will report the GTR as the best supercar ever made, however the next will heap crap on it for being a soulless gadget that demands nothing from the driver. Each to their own, our different tastes in cars in only surpassed by our differing tastes in Women (Or men if you play for that side).

I would love to own a V8 again, however when my garage space is limited I will choose the car that suits all my needs and wants. My ideal garage has a Vantage or DB9 in it with my GTR beside it. That is combined with the X5 that my wife has.

All aspects met, but until I get rid of some toys or buy a bigger house then the GTR and X5 are it. Once again, no right or wrong answer, just peoples preference and needs.

[Beer Baron]

Hey Birds, can you order me one of those for our R35, would be more than happy to pay the asking price

mine had the 7 speed but one of them was so fast it felt like I was going backwards and the world was moving forwards. either that or it was reverse.

all these people have very polarised opinions on the R8 and the R35. I don't know how many have even seen both in the flesh let alone driven both. I have. admittedly many more km in R35s but they are definitely a faster car and have a better box (even if it does only have 6 forward gears unlike birds' one).

if we are talking performance car of the year then it would have to be the R35 in my eyes. but then isn't that award for NEW cars? if so then aren't we 2 years late? I ordered my first R35 in 2007 and it was delivered in early 08 and a mate ordered his early 07 and was driving in december 07. hardly a new car for 2009....

[ras1983]

What more do you guys want? The GTR was given equal first with the R8. Reading this thread made me think that the magazine hated the GTR.

[Max_ST-R]

Your not supposed to talk about that issue...

Ze Germans haf spies everywhere...

just a rumour I heard from a friend from a friend of a friend!!

[Roy]

The R35 is more practical but i would caution calling it a daily driver for taking the kids to school. I know with all these sorts of cars its one thing to afford to by it, and another to afford to run one. But someone care to run past me the servicing costs for the first 15,000kms which most of us woudl do in 6 or so months of daily drivign with kids?

I would take the R8, looks horn and goes hard enough to be entertaining and has in my eyes/taste more character. But does get destroyed by the R35 from an all round performance stance...which since you dont get to use that all too often i rather the more tactile exhaust note, 3 pedal manual, scraping the hemroids on the ground etc

[fungoolie]

The R35 is more practical but i would caution calling it a daily driver for taking the kids to school. I know with all these sorts of cars its one thing to afford to by it, and another to afford to run one. But someone care to run past me the servicing costs for the first 15,000kms which most of us woudl do in 6 or so months of daily drivign with kids?

I would take the R8, looks horn and goes hard enough to be entertaining and has in my eyes/taste more character. But does get destroyed by the R35 from an all round performance stance...which since you dont get to use that all too often i rather the more tactile exhaust note, 3 pedal manual, scraping the hemroids on the ground etc

Servicing for 15,000 kms consists of an oil change of Mobil 1 at around $100 plus labour at 10,000 kms. I changed my air filters as well $50 from Courtesy Parts in the US $150 from Nissan here but I do drive in a dusty environment. All up you'd get change from a couple hundred bucks.... First trans oil change at 20K if driven hard, 30K if driven normally according to the service schedule. So yes it's adefinitely a daily driver for me

[Roy]

Strange, i have heard from two owners that is not the case. Might have misunderstood or there may have been other issues?!?!?

[Kujotk]

or they were trying to bignote themselves,

Unless the brakes were rooted or something, ive been told (not from personal experience) that the brakes are a bitch, something to do with insurance or something..... is that true?

I was told that when it come to replacing the pads, you also arn't allowed to use same disks or something aswell or insurance wont cover it.

oh don't quote me because ive only heard it from one guy but i dunno if he was just talking out of his ass.

[Roy]

Yes, the pads with new rotors was part of the service

[fungoolie]

Well new pads and rotors at a 10,000 KM service is definitely not routine!!! In fact if that was required I'd be kicking and screaming if they didnt fix the obvious fault under warranty anyway. I measured 0.3 mm loss of brake disk at my 10,000KM service so assuming that wear rate continues my disks should last 70,000 KMS. We shall see but I don't see that as excessive.

[Kujotk]

Roy it sounds like who ever owns the car your talking about is surely giving it a bloody hard time and i dont think you should make up your mind about using a gtr as a daily bassed on what they say about it because i don't think they are using it as a daily...