Performance Car Of The Year

[Shinrai]

Yeah, I kind of got what he was eluding to. That word is just one of my pet hates as I have heard it overused lately.

Back to topic, if technology is present to allow a more user error forgiving ride then doesn't that allow for a more fun and engaging drive as you can easily and "safely" reach ridiculous speeds. And for those more skilled, surely it can only add to the potential that the car can reach. I know how good my R33 GT-R V-Spec feels, I can only imagine what a R35 has to offer.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Shinrai

[_Ryan_]

Hi Snowman,

You're right in that it is definitely a personal thing - some drivers prefer fixed paddles, some prefer moving paddles.

In a track environment many drivers are going to aim to get their downchange and braking done before turn in on most corners, so the next upshift isn't until the car is exiting the corner, and unless the driver has got the corner wildly wrong, then the driver should be well aware of where the moving paddles are on exit.

Some drivers use a driving style where they shift gears mid corner.

There is a thread on NAGTROC about our Works Bell Paddle Shifter bundles for the R35 here ...

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=35346

It reads ...

Personally i think that is why the R35 is so good, it changes gears so fast, it does not upset the balance of the car. You don't need to plan your shifts arounds turns as much. I change gears mid-corner often. One of the best things about this car.

GTRworld tested an R35 with a paddle shifter that rotates with the steering wheel.

They wrote about it ...

Similarly F1 cars use movable paddles, so there are clear advantages to movable paddles - if there wasn't then F1 cars would not run them.

As I said above though, it's a personal choice if someone prefers movable paddles or fixed paddles. There is no right or wrong answer.

- The Tuners Group

Doesn't an F1 car have less turns lock-lock/quicker steering? So not really a direct comparison IMO.

[fungoolie]

This has been brought up before, but mere mortals will extract alot more out of a forgiving AWD Audi, Porsche or Nissan...over the Vette or Viper..in which they are much more likely to end up swapping ends at high speed if they are not 100% careful. You can't under estimate user friendliness...even F1 drivers put a high value on a car that is forgiving and easy to drive over a car that maybe faster but always having to fight.

I think from an engineering point of view, getting a 1740kg car to match a car with 120kw more power, 250Nm more torque and 200kg less weight on a race track is a more remarkable acheivement.

This is exactly my point. ZR-1 can only JUST eclipse GT-R with way more of everything, power, torque, tyres, less weight etc etc. GT-R is a better engineered package which simply does more with less. It's just a smarter more elegant way of doing things. Nissan uses a scalpel instead of an axe to achieve the same result. And lets put two AVERAGE drivers in these cars instead of these professionals and I'll bet anything that the result would be reversed. I can virtually guarantee that I would be faster in my GT-R than a ZR-1 around Mallalla for example. Nissan invented the radical "premium midship" drivetrain and the only disadvantage I can see from it is that it sacrifices a little rear seat legroom. This would not have even been an issue if they took the easy way out and opted out of making it a 4 seater but thank god they didn't. I wouldn't be able to justify owning one today if they chose to go 2 seater. My mind still boggles at how the car does what it does based on the face value of it's specifications. This GT-R is revolutionary rather than just a refinement of an age old platform and costs $25K less than the Vette. We should be applauding Nissan for finally bringing all these other manufacturers to task on ripping us off with overpriced products by providing a competitor at a significantly lower price. Until 2007 I for one could not even have entertained the idea of owning a "supercar" until Nissan came up with the GT-R. Thanks to them I now can. $200K more for the Audi??? I wouldn't be able to justify owning the GT-R if it was $30K more let alone $200K more. Porsches, Audis, Ferraris, Corvettes...It's a completely moot point whether or not theyre better/worse or equal to the GT-R. I could never afford one so thanks, I'll take the cheaper alternative and still be able to enjoy it every day because of all the practical qualities it exhibits.

[Birds]

Just eclipse / win, same thing really. We are obviously in two different minds about it. You see it that the GTR does more with less but that's how I'm viewing the ZR1. You see the ZR1 with a large displacement V8 and 485kw plus a weight advantage...I see the GTR with a dual clutch 7 speed paddle shift gearbox, all wheel drive and a weight disadvantage created by this sort of technology. I agree with your scalpel/axe analogy...but why is the "scalpel" necessarily better than the axe? If they both set out to achieve the same thing, and the axe matches it or comes out in front...then surgical precision has failed because by rights it should be miles ahead of the brutal axe attack. To continue the analogy...if the axe gets blunt you can put it on a grinder and repair it for much less thanks to components being less complciated - in contrast the precision of the scalpel is it's own worst enemy when it comes to repairs. If/when that transmission goes, this cheap supercar loses just a bit of the cost-effective appeal. It's an awesome thing being able to shift 1800kg around a racetrack faster than cars half this weight...it's just as awesome being able to keep up with that using decades old, less than half the amount of technology. Why is the former the winner in engineering wars? Look at Formula 1...the sport prides itself on evolution; refining something to the point of perfection and then going even further. The focus isn't reinvention. And novice drivability isn't a failure of the ZR1, it's a success of the GTR. But in saying that, if it's not an advantage it's a compromise somewhere along the way. Supercars were never meant for novice drivers - inspiring over-confidence in a novice driver's ability to control a vehicle isn't necessarily a good thing IMO. I just don't see where the ZR1 fails at what it's meant to be...

[FineLine]

hey feathers, Should you be in need of surgery I suggest you have the henchman use an axe rather than a surgeon with a scalpel perform the op. The collateral damage will be awesome and the scars will give you something to show your grandkids for years to come.

I can think of a lot of good reasons why the surgical approach neatly slices and dices the axe method. You have however captured the true ethos of 2 very different approaches to making a performance car. For me I'll take the finely sutured scar of the surgeons scalpel over a gaping axe wound any day.

[Martin Donnon]

...I see the GTR with a dual clutch 7 speed paddle shift gearbox...

Hey Birds, can you order me one of those for our R35, would be more than happy to pay the asking price

[Kinkstaah]

$200K more for the Audi??? I wouldn't be able to justify owning the GT-R if it was $30K more let alone $200K more

Pour 200K into that GT-R and see how it stacks up vs the stock Audi. That's a fair comparison and I really don't believe it would be even close to a tie.. could be applied to the R35 v ZR-1 too to a lesser extent.. not that I'll ever be able to afford any of them

[fungoolie]

Well all scalpel/axe analogies aside. I embrace technology and innovation. Maybe it's the engineer in me that sees the novelty in new ideas and better way of doing things. Perhaps thats why I'd have an Ipod over a walkman. Yes I was one of those that changed to CD when it came out and didn't have to be dragged kicking and screaming 10 years later when they stopped selling LPs. And if you can deliver me this new technology at a lower price, better than half the price as in the case of the vette and R8 in Oz, I see the decision as a no brainer. We clearly differ on our philosophies and so be it.

However the only area I do take major issue with is the idea that formula one doesnt innovate and only evolves! It's only because of the rules they have comply with that we dont see cars with plasma thrusters and antigravity devices fitted in formula one! These guys came up with the majority of the clever innovations we see on cars today and in many cases had them banned because the rule makers couldn't see them coming and had to shut them down after the clever innovaters in the F1 teams stuck them on the cars. The evolution you see is not a matter of choice but simply because they have to work within the tight confines of rules.

Oh actually there is another area I do take issue with. The notion that a supercar is MEANT to be hard to drive..... Ask Jamie Whincup what he'll prefer on the racetrack...... And if it inspires overconfidence in me when when I'm in my GT-R I would only need 10 seconds in the ZR-1 to change my attitude completely to treat the beast with utter respect because it will kill me at the slightest touch of the throttle. I don't wan't my car to leave me in a lather of sweat every time I take it for a blast up the Gorge Road....Again different philosphies.

[BASHO]

1 /Must admit R8 makes people weak at the knees

2/Also Aud will have invested heavily in the outcome with the motor mags...

1/From the thought of the mainternance costs

2/ And how would they do that, huge amount of add spend or just bribe the motoring journos ? bullshit is alive and well and well---here.

[Max_ST-R]

Ah, bugger off...I already knew what your post was going to say before I read it and I just don't care for another ZR1 vs. GTR debate Max. I asked fungoolie what his interpretation of where the ZR1 fails was.

Excuse ME!...for having an opinion or citing observational evidence, I thought this was an OPEN THREAD and I thought I was quite balanced in my argument. I always try and maintain a certain decorum in my posts and I also try and be calm and logical in my posts. I don't resort to using childish assessments of any car (or people), & I also acknowledged the strengths and weaknesses of a car I comment on.

I thought this was a friendly blog where there was respect for one another other, but if you and Kujotic want to be smart-arses ......no worries SO BE IT........

[Max_ST-R]

lol i was thinking along the same lines as you when i was reading his post lol

...In a bad mood are we Kujotk?...what happen did your maserati BREAK DOWN.....AGAIN.........

[Max_ST-R]

Oh actually there is another area I do take issue with. The notion that a supercar is MEANT to be hard to drive..... Ask Jamie Whincup what he'll prefer on the racetrack...... And if it inspires overconfidence in me when when I'm in my GT-R I would only need 10 seconds in the ZR-1 to change my attitude completely to treat the beast with utter respect because it will kill me at the slightest touch of the throttle. I don't wan't my car to leave me in a lather of sweat every time I take it for a blast up the Gorge Road....Again different philosphies.

fungoolie, It's not just Jamie Whincup, ask just about ANY race car driver. I follow F1 and drive-ability is THE crucial factor no matter which driver they talk to. At the end of the day if you find it too hard to keep it on the black stuff lap after lap then you won't get the most out of it.

The 'hero's' that talk up mega-power rwd are ALL TALK, there are very few people who can extract 100% and tame such a car. I'd like to see these people drive their ZR-1 and Viper at the limit and as HARD as they would a Gt-R or 911 Turbo....we both know the answer to that.

[Kujotk]

Excuse ME!...for having an opinion or citing observational evidence, I thought this was an OPEN THREAD and I thought I was quite balanced in my argument. I always try and maintain a certain decorum in my posts and I also try and be calm and logical in my posts. I don't resort to using childish assessments of any car (or people), & I also acknowledged the strengths and weaknesses of a car I comment on.

I thought this was a friendly blog where there was respect for one another other, but if you and Kujotic want to be smart-arses ......no worries SO BE IT........

nawwww poor baby, cheer up its only the internet you take this way too serious by the looks of things

[Max_ST-R]

Once again, you know nothing about me yet you try a personal attack again... good one maximus wankas, i'm really not surprised with your comments.... i've already sent a draught of what your reply to this one is going to be to a few friends on this thread, we'll see how close I can get it, hey after you reply I can send it right to you and we'll see if iv'e profiled you down to a tee.

Good day to you

Personal attack? where? ...Ironic how you then say it's just the internet and to cheer up, & not be so serious in your other post, then call me a wanker, then say your gonna forward my reply...hang on..you're gonna forward my reply to friends!...bloody hell and you're telling me to get over it!

No I don't know you, or birds, but what I DO KNOW is neither of you have any blog etiquette, that's quite obvious.

BTW I asked you a question about your car....it wasn't a personal attack...I was just trying to figure out why you (and birds) would have a go at me over a straight forward post about Corvette ZR-1/Viper.... sounds like you were both in a bad mood.

[Kujotk]

Personal attack? where? ...Ironic how you then say it's just the internet and to cheer up, & not be so serious in your other post, then call me a wanker, then say your gonna forward my reply...hang on..you're gonna forward my reply to friends!...bloody hell and you're telling me to get over it!

No I don't know you, or birds, but what I DO KNOW is neither of you have any blog etiquette, that's quite obvious.

BTW I asked you a question about your car....it wasn't a personal attack...I was just trying to figure out why you (and birds) would have a go at me over a straight forward post about Corvette ZR-1/Viper.... sounds like you were both in a bad mood.

forwarded so myself and others can have a laugh,,,, guess what, I did have a laugh, cheers bye....

And about your name...... i'm just stating my opinion and as you said "we're all entitled"

i'm just trying to bring the thread back to your level.... you know, the level that maxima owners have

peace dude be happy and smile

[Max_ST-R]

yeah whatever Kujotk, i'll really be losing sleep tonight becuase of what you think of me!

[Birds]

Fungoolie, I wasn't disputing your choice of the R35...dollars do decide all. I was just disputing why you thought the ZR1 had failings in the design of it. iPod vs Walkman: what if the iPod was the same size / physically larger than the Walkman and produced on-par...but for most tests...slightly lesser sound quality, yet for a cheaper cost? Now assuming I can afford either, do I still go with the newer technology? Is it that much better than the old? If at all? We usually associate the word fail with something significantly lesser than the alternative...might be different in your use but I'm still not seeing fail in the ZR1.

I don't see your point with F1...the rules make F1 what it is. That's my point...F1 embraces evolution within the confines of rules and it still works. But not unlike Formula 1 teams, manufacturers also have to work within the confines of rules, particularly the markets that demand their goods. And there are alot more rules in America than Japan...

Didn't say supercars were meant to be hard to drive, just not designed for novices to gain over-confidence in a car that can still crash. They've always been made for performance without this sort of compromise, sacrificing things like drivability to achieve the best. The ZR1 is proof that you can remove this compromise and achieve more. I like that someone short of a good driver who steps into a ZR1 would be afraid to drive the thing hard around a twisty road where no matter what car you are in you can still kill yourself.

hey feathers, Should you be in need of surgery I suggest you have the henchman use an axe rather than a surgeon with a scalpel perform the op. The collateral damage will be awesome and the scars will give you something to show your grandkids for years to come.

I can think of a lot of good reasons why the surgical approach neatly slices and dices the axe method. You have however captured the true ethos of 2 very different approaches to making a performance car. For me I'll take the finely sutured scar of the surgeons scalpel over a gaping axe wound any day.

That's a bit unfair, you're comparing the specific purpose of the scalpel with the axe...how about we cut down a tree and see how long you'd like to stay there carving away at it with a hand instrument? Like I said, they both set out to achieve the same thing...they both succeed at their intended purpose but the axe comes out slightly in front. I'll even go as far as compromising and saying that these two cars are on par with each other, given the wins (and they are still wins) are so close they're negligible. In the end it's an each to their own contest between these two...but anyone who says the ZR1 has some sort of failure about it...they're ignoring some pretty damning information presented up front and centre. But hey, it's a Nissan forum...I won't find much in the way of appreciation for Chevrolet's choice of engineering.

Hey Birds, can you order me one of those for our R35, would be more than happy to pay the asking price

Apologies my memory didn't serve me correctly at all; 6 speed*.

But tell you what...$200 million dollars and I'll get you the 7 speed

[Kujotk]

now back to main topic, lets all forget about ZR1.....

GTR should have won against the R8 v10 in some aspects and Audi should have won in others, and the interpretation of both becomes a more personal choice of what each individual wants from the car..... obviously the Magazine guys wanted what the Audi had alittle more than the GTR, an thats only their opinion.

I'm out of this thread now

have fun all

[SilverECR33]

Boycott Motor Mag.!

[Max_ST-R]

Boycott Motor Mag.!

A bit harsh! At least they gave the GT-R equal 1st!

Have a look at Drive car of the year and Australia's Best Car, where they judged the GT-R VERY harshly. In DCOTY the BMW 135i ended up taking the prize for best performance car over $60K. Once again, they found the GT-R to be too harsh for everyday living...now compared to the BMW 135i fair enough, but compared to the GT-R's performance rivals like the 911 Gt3 , Gallardo superleggera and the other supercar competitors, I'd have thought the GT-R was much more practical by comparison. Drive also went to great lengths to criticise the mitigated launch control which I thought was also wrong, they overstated the transmission failure problems. As we all know it's only the first gear and only when seriously abused. I'd bet my bottom dollar that any of the GT-Rs competitors would suffer premature wear of clutch or transmission components if they were constantly launched in brutal fashion to acheive optimal 0-100 km/h times.

For example I happen to know that a BMW Aus press car suffered a transmission failure (an M5), replacement cost was $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!