Incorrect Badging Of A Car

[MLCrisis]

Hi, all.

I was prompted to post on the topic of incorrect badging of cars by a recent/current "For sale" post in the WA For Sale section. I do not want to take the seller's thread off topic, nor do I wish to criticise him in particular. I simply want to raise the issue.

So is badging a car as one thing, when it is a lesser thing, wrong?

Examples include kit cars made to replicate Porsches or Ferraris, complete down to the badging and, of course, putting GTR badges on a GTT or GTS with a body kit.

My view is that it is misrepresentation, whether it is innocently intended or not. There are two main concerns with it. One is that the unscrupulous will try and pass it off as the real thing. This has been a major problem with GTRs, V Specs and the like within the Skyline mark. This is also a problem with other marks and classic cars - for example, try and buy a genuine Z28 Camaro (early '70's version), to name but one.

The second is that the availability of cheap copies devalues the mark and can impact the re-sale value of the genuine article.

I happen to have paid a lot of money, through a reputable Import broker, to acquire a genuine R34 GTR V Spec II, with all the paperwork to prove it. I delight in seeing other cars of the same mark, comparing them, appreciating them. It is a rare car and a fantastic car that is rightly considered a classic. So I get p#ssed off if Arthur Daly or some ill-informed kid sells something with the same badge that is not genuine, whether he sells it for a fraction of the price or not.

Further to that, I believe that it is inappropriate for this forum to provide a platform for people selling cars that are incorrectly badged. If it is clear that the badging is incorrect, the seller should be asked to remove the incorrect badging as a condition of offering it for sale on these forums.

I would be interested in your views.

Bah Humbug.

Edited December 14, 2009 by MLCrisis

[Hanaldo]

100% agreed, badging incorrectly is ghey and should never be done

[V35_Paul]

Yeah if you go to sell the car it needs the right badging.

If you want to put a different badge on it and not sell it, i think that is ok.

[NISMOGTT]

i agree 100% re-badging is terrible

but if your buying a car based on the badge and you do not have a clue then it is your fault for being mis-lead... i know sounds harsh but scammers are harsh...

[ecentrix]

De badging is where its at.

Also feel the same way

/agree @ canute

[gersfan]

I think it'd be embarrassing to drive around in something trying to be more than it is. Especially when people who know their stuff see it.

[malcolm]

Yeah if you go to sell the car it needs the right badging.

If you want to put a different badge on it and not sell it, i think that is ok.

I think theres two sides to this discussion. Although it makes no sense whatsoever to say put a GT-R badge on a GTS-t if thats what you want to do you should be free to do so & even leaving it on when selling it is again something that makes no sense but if thats what you want to do you should be free to do so. The only thing i would strongly protest about is if you did have a GTS-t with GT-R badge on it & you were selling the car as a GT-R. As long as youre representing the car as a GTS-t with a GT-R badge on it i dont see a problem. It certainly makes no sense to do it but as long as youre honest about it youre not doing anything wrong. The new owner will customize it to his/her liking anyway.

Edited December 14, 2009 by malcolm

[R32 Driver]

I think it'd be embarrassing to drive around in something trying to be more than it is. Especially when people who know their stuff see it.

+1

[br3ndan]

i have a different view on this...

I really think it depends on the type of car you are doing

My dad and I currently rebuilding ground up a Ford XY.. When we got it... it was just the shell..now its about 90% complete. However, im doing it as a replica XY GT. I have obtain alot of the original GT parts and specs and yes that includes the badging.

With this kind of project and the amount of work going into it.. i am 100% sure it will never be sold. Nearly all the work has been done in house by me or my dad. Including painitng the car, taking out the rust.. putting in the new engine, suspension componets, interior.. etc.

If i could afford a real xy GT then i would buy one. But with me working on my 1st after degree job,, and currently looking to get an apartment ( My home loan just got approved! ) it seems a bit out of the question.

This way i can appreciate the car as it is knowing the work was done by the family and not some random workshop guy. If anyone was to ask me if it the car was real authentic GT i would say no. Its not.

I have gone to large extenive means to make this as close to the real thing as possible. This is not becuase i want to impress other people or trick other poeple..nor do i think its juvenile. It was built so i can appreciate it for what it is. No one else. I cant afford a real one, and this is the only way at this point of time i can enjoy it.

So for those going on about how its wrong and whatever, in my opinion, if its done well and right, and in the intention to give credit to the orignial, which may be out of reach for some... i see no problem in doing so.

This car will stay in the family for a long time to come. And to me, its worth more than the real thing.. maybe not in monetary value, but sedimental value. Building this car has been a real eye opener and gives the family something to come together and do work on.

Think carefully before you go and discredit what people have done...

Simply sticking a GTR badge on a GTS T and giving it the GTR kit on the other hand... yes that is wrong. Because its not giving credit to the GTR , its damaging the brand and reputation that the GTR gives out.

When its done in the next few months, ill be sure to bring it out for a cruise B1... and u can let me know if it changes your view point on rebuiling cars to represent others. =)

Edited December 14, 2009 by br3ndan

[l_uk3y]

I think theres two sides to this discussion. Although it makes no sense whatsoever to say put a GT-R badge on a GTS-t if thats what you want to do you should be free to do so & even leaving it on when selling it is again something that makes no sense but if thats what you want to do you should be free to do so. The only thing i would strongly protest about is if you did have a GTS-t with GT-R badge on it & you were selling the car as a GT-R. As long as youre representing the car as a GTS-t with a GT-R badge on it i dont see a problem. It certainly makes no sense to do it but as long as youre honest about it youre not doing anything wrong. The new owner will customize it to his/her liking anyway.

I agree with this although i don't believe in false rebadging. It is upto the seller to list the product exactly how it is or be liable to fraud.

But it is also upto the buyer to do their research. Theres too many people out there looking to make an extra dollar these days. If you are going to be spending up on something valuable, you need to know what your dealing with, or have something trustworthy/experienced to help. (Or alas you will be stuck with an RB20/25 instead of a 26. or worse still. No turbo at all)

RULE NUMBER 42: If your GTS is dressed up to look like a GTR and has matching badges. We will find out and you will be mocked and frowned upon.

Gts-t's trying to stand out from the crowd FTW

Luke

[JiN_MaN]

What about if your a smart ass and put Toyota Camry badges on your JZX100.

Is having a joke or is that something more?

ps, personally I see it as the owner having a laugh.

[scathing]

If it is clear that the badging is incorrect, the seller should be asked to remove the incorrect badging as a condition of offering it for sale on these forums.

I reckon people who try to polish their turds with badges from higher spec cars are wankers who need a good slap upside the head, but forcing them to remove their pointless trinkets from the car is way too "nanny state" for me. I don't like it, but I occasionally like to pretend we live in a free country where the populace has enough brain power to at least do some basic checks to make sure they're not being conned.

As long as the seller is making it clear what they're actually selling, popping random badges on a car is a matter of (lack of) taste.

If someone's trying to sell off a car that's only ever referred to as a "R34 GT-R", but sports GTS-t brakes and no screen in the centre console (and no explanation given at all for these discrepencies), then questions should rightly be asked. However if someone's clearly advertising a GT-T that happens to have a Z-Tune style bodykit then its distasteful but not reasonably actionable.

Otherwise, where do you draw the line? Should 2WD Skyline all get crushed, since the car looks so similar to the uninitiated at a glance that their "commonness" and "cheapness" of them damages the GT-R's reputation? After all, volume also reduces cachet. As do the lesser models not being as quick, and getting beaten by cars that the GT-R would have no problems dispatching.

It's not like non-R35 GT-Rs look that much different from their lesser siblings that the uninitiated (who you are evidently trying to impress since enthusiasts will pick the aforementioned wankers a mile off) will instantly be able to pick the difference.

As for "devaluing the mark", which seems to be your other major concern, there's lots of things that devalue brands. Skyline drivers who illegally modify their car so they're always pulled over on the side of the road getting defected give the vehicle a bad reputation. So do people who street race in them and make it on the news. Should the forum take action against anyone who gives the Skyline brand a bad name in that manner?

This place would be dead quiet if its a condition for using the forum that every person keeps their street-registered car (and therefore "badged" as completely street legal with its license plate and rego sticker) 100% ADR compliant, and always driven within the letter of every law, to help try and keep its reputation among the great unwashed pristine.

Selling a street car that isn't street legal could also be construed as misrepresentation, as an extension of the above, and its far less "appropriate" for a forum to condone the illegal activity of trafficking in illegally registered vehicles. Surely banning modified cars that don't have engineering certificates / modification plates (whatever your local transport authority requires) and successful emissions tests would be better action for the majority of buyers and the reputation of the Skyline mark.

Edited December 14, 2009 by scathing

[malcolm]

+1

I would personally never put a GT-R badge on a GTS-t - I dont even agree with painting a car a non factory colour - but just because I wouldnt doesnt give me the right to stop someone else.

The car manufactures even do it themselves - The Honda Accord & Rover Vitesse were exactly the same car made at the Honda Factory yet some were badged Honda & some were badged Rover & the Ford Laser & Mazda 323 were exacttly the same car made at Mazda with some badged Ford & some badged Mazda.

It all comes down to honesty & representing it truthfully ... ...

[scathing]

This way i can appreciate the car as it is knowing the work was done by the family and not some random workshop guy. If anyone was to ask me if it the car was real authentic GT i would say no. Its not.

Question: Why badge with an authentic GT badging / patterning when it's not? Especially since you'll freely admit so?

What's wrong with owning a car that just looks, sounds, and goes like a tough XY? Why does it need to say XY GT?

A dead stock genuine XY GT was built by that "random factory guy" who's only there because they're paying him to be, and whose work you've inferred you're appreciating less from the quote above. Your non-standard XY was lovingly built by you and your family. Making it look like a GT takes away from the work you guys put into it.

Edited December 14, 2009 by scathing

[malcolm]

I just thought of a classic example of this. The Shelby Cobra. Theres only a handful of real ones left yet every single "replica" Shelby Cobra has all the factory badges in all the factory places. Theyre not being "sold" as it were as original Shelby Cobras but as Shelby Cobra replicas. Surely a replica has the right to "replicate" the original it is replicating by using the same parts to become a replica. I also know of a GTS-t that was turned into a GT-R that has won Best GTR-R in a Show & Shine.

[br3ndan]

Question: Why badge with an authentic GT badging / patterning when it's not? Especially since you'll freely admit so?

What's wrong with owning a car that just looks, sounds, and goes like a tough XY? Why does it need to say XY GT?

A dead stock genuine XY GT was built by that "random factory guy" who's only there because they're paying him to be, and whose work you've inferred you're appreciating less from the quote above. Your non-standard XY was lovingly built by you and your family. Making it look like a GT takes away from the work you guys put into it.

as i said, i want it to represent the XY GT. Im buidling it to the same specifications as a GT would be built. And those same specifications also means badging it that way. I freely admit its not the real thing and i have no intention to tell people it is when its not. This is for me, not anyone else. This is the cloest thing at the moment i can have to the real thing ( i am only 22). Why cant i make a car that is close to the car i inspire to have in the future?

And what i meant by the whole workshop thing, is that i hate poeple who send their cars to work shops get the work done and go on about how its their car. TEchnically it is their car, but they didnt do any work on it. So to me, that isnt worth sh*t.

[gazza750]

isnt it fraud if they try to sell it incorrectly badged without stating the true model ?

sorry havent read the for sale thread of the car to know what it's being sold as

[malcolm]

My dad and I currently rebuilding ground up a Ford XY.. When we got it... it was just the shell..now its about 90% complete. However, im doing it as a replica XY GT. I have obtain alot of the original GT parts and specs and yes that includes the badging.

I firmy believe that if youre building a replica XY GT it has every right to have all the same badges as the original. It wouldnt be a replica without them. As long as youre not passing it off as an original its fine. We must also remember that all the originals only have certain chassis & engine numbers anyway so itd be easy to prove or disprove anyones claims regarding original or replica.

[malcolm]

as i said, i want it to represent the XY GT. Im buidling it to the same specifications as a GT would be built. And those same specifications also means badging it that way. I freely admit its not the real thing and i have no intention to tell people it is when its not. This is for me, not anyone else. This is the cloest thing at the moment i can have to the real thing ( i am only 22). Why cant i make a car that is close to the car i inspire to have in the future?

And what i meant by the whole workshop thing, is that i hate poeple who send their cars to work shops get the work done and go on about how its their car. TEchnically it is their car, but they didnt do any work on it. So to me, that isnt worth sh*t.

As i just said your replica MUST have the XY GT badges on it to be a replica XY GT. There is NOTHING wrong with badging a replica with the original factory badges. You are not making an original as that would be impossible because you would not the right chassis number nor engine block number so you could NEVER be accused of pretending to have one. As long as youre honest & say i have a REPLICA XY GT there is no problem. The only difference between an original and replica is when & where they were made and the ever important engine & chassis numbers.

An authentic factory original must also have the matching engine & chassis numbers that were fitted to it in the factry the day it was built. If you have a factory original chassis & factory original engine block from two different factory original cars you DO NOT have an original factory car. Close but not close enough.

[Kujotk]

I don't see anything wrong with it, but if you do it your liable of looking like an idiot when people like us who know our shit come to look at the car and basically laugh in their face.

It's mostly p-platers who do it and i've seen them go both ways on the issue. Some take of the "t" in gtt or gts-t because they think that police will be fooled, others put higher spec badges to show off to their peers who have no idea, other times its just for a laugh or just to be different...

If you deliberately try to sell a car as a higher spec, then legally thats defrauding the customer and basically its a Department of Fair Trading issue (those guys do nothing about it unless the car was wrongfuly sold).

If you own something alittle more rare than the rest, like an r34 gtt vspec nur or something like that, then you will have proof of it, i'm pretty sure you can even google the engine/chassis numbers to make sure of it, but if you dress up a 34gt with the body kit and the stickers, then its probably because you love the look of it but you can't afford the original, i fail to see why the gtr owner would get pissed off, it really doesnt affect your resale value at all, rather it lets you know that people out their are envious of your car and want to copy its looks.... i'd feel pretty happy aboput that if i were you