2010 F1 Season

[scarface_au]

Is it team orders when drivers are advised to hold station and not challenge their team mate?

On more than one occasion this year we have seen cryptic orders given to drivers from more than just Ferrari telling them that "their team mate is quicker" or time to "conserve fuel" when it seems they were pressing for position.

It is rife in F1 and it always will, the difference is Ferrari made it obvious this weekend.

It sucks but that is the game.

I think there's a difference between being told to hold position and being ordered to give up a race win that you have worked hard for. If you're in front you should be allowed to stay there, if you're good enough. They should be allowed to race, pure and simple.

I can see some justification for being told to hold station though. As we've seen with RBR, teammates fighting for position is dangerous. Even if they don't collide, trying to pass someone puts strain on engines and yes, it uses more fuel. We know these teams run it pretty close to the bone these days (which is an argument to bring back refuelling IMO), so sometimes they genuinely do need to hold them back so they don't waste fuel fighting each other.

In summary, being told to move over is a lot worse than being told to hold position, but neither should happen.

[scarface_au]

100 grand isn't even a drop in the ocean for Ferrari

It's a complete joke, and no disincentive whatsoever

If they'd been told in advance they'd get a $100k fine do you think they'd have considered leaving Massa in front, even for a nanosecond? They'd have done the same thing in a heartbeat knowing they'd get off that lightly.

[Roy]

They are playing with fire by rubbing peoples noses in it.

[jonn]

Being told to hold position is exactly the same as being told to allow someone to pass. The are team orders and have always been a part of F1. If RBR employed the same tactic they wouldn't have had the cluster f..k when webber and vettel collided. The WDC would be a different story if that didn't take place. Massa allowed Alonso to pass so I can't see how they can penalise Alonso for doing what every other driver in the field would have done.

End of the day it was a boring race and if wasn't for the Alonso/Massa part no one would be talking about it.

[Roy]

But again Mclaren should have had a bad weekend, instead they further their points lead in both championships by beating Webber and getting both their cars in the top 5! They are consistant and picking up good points even when they are having bad weekends.

Consider that Hamo, Vettel, Alonso and Button have all won Two GPs this year, and Webber 3. Yet look at the points!

Webs did a back flip, Button cooked an engine, Hamo ate armco, Vettel played in the kitty litter on two occassions...but its still so close. Webberis paying a heavy price for his poor top 10 finishes

Shows that Webber even though he has only been out of the points in one GP, he needs to keep in the top 5 as the points for 6-8th are rubbish

[Doobs]

If you haven't seen it already, download the latest Top Gear.

They've made a tribute to Aryton Senna. Some really good old footage.

[Nee-san]

rumours are force india may be excluded for fitting the wrong tyres to their cars... for one lap... before they rectified it at their own expense

and here the fuzz are found guilty of cheating and this is what they get?

WMSC smashed mclaren in 08, we'll see if they have the same amount of balls in this case

This is a big chance for Jean Todt and the rest of the FIA WMSC to put their objectivity on display for the rest of the teams by publically crucifying Ferrari.

I suspect that unless Ferrari can use legalities to maneuver their way past this issue then they will face at a minimum a loss of classification if found guilty.

[DJRIFT]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockenheimring

Used to love the old layout.

cheers

[dezz]

I think there's a difference between being told to hold position and being ordered to give up a race win that you have worked hard for. If you're in front you should be allowed to stay there, if you're good enough. They should be allowed to race, pure and simple.

I can see some justification for being told to hold station though. As we've seen with RBR, teammates fighting for position is dangerous. Even if they don't collide, trying to pass someone puts strain on engines and yes, it uses more fuel. We know these teams run it pretty close to the bone these days (which is an argument to bring back refuelling IMO), so sometimes they genuinely do need to hold them back so they don't waste fuel fighting each other.

In summary, being told to move over is a lot worse than being told to hold position, but neither should happen.

This is self contradictory in my opinion....Alonso was being held up by Massa which was allowing Vettel to close the gap. If that continued, you'd have Alonso defending P2 to Vettel, and Massa would more than likely be involved in the fight as well, especially if Vettel found a way passed Alonso.

It's no different to being told to hold station. The only thing that made it worse is the way Massa went about letting Alonso through, obviously letting everyone know he wasn't happy about it.

At the end of the day, I believe Alonso could have challenged Massa for P1, but probably didn't want to repeat the RBR incident, and followed Massa until the team let Massa know Alonso was quicker than him.

[sh@un]

What the motoring press thought

[chuckie]

hope Ferrari get the BOOT

[ctjet]

Is it team orders when drivers are advised to hold station and not challenge their team mate?

On more than one occasion this year we have seen cryptic orders given to drivers from more than just Ferrari telling them that "their team mate is quicker" or time to "conserve fuel" when it seems they were pressing for position.

It is rife in F1 and it always will, the difference is Ferrari made it obvious this weekend.

It sucks but that is the game.

You must be kidding? A position earned is the same as a position given?

there are just so many counterpoints i have no idea where to begin, the easiest solution is just to link you

Reasons Why Ferrari Were Wrong.

[wolverine]

I read and re-read what I wrote and I don't know where I said "A position earned is the same as a position given".

I am suggesting team orders are in place most races and affect the points. It is part of F1.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion I was supporting the actions of Ferrari.

I want team mates to go at it hammer and tong with clean(ish) racing.

[wolverine]

Yep that article covers the blatancy and disregard for the rules and the fans of the sport.

Perhaps that article should go into further detail on the subtle ways that team orders are now given to show a cleaner face of F1 despite the fact that it still happens.

[ctjet]

You may not directly support the theory, but that is what you were insinuating with the 'hold station' comment is that it affects race results to the extent that this saga has.

Being told (cryptically) not to pass your teammate is a team effort to maintain what you've raced for all day. Telling your team mate to essentially give up on this years championship with 10 races to go is a completely different and much more selfish story.

Fernando went on... and fucking on... about the manipulated Valencia result. And now? We're all suddenly cool with this are we nando?

Beyond being blatent they are completely unrepentant about what they have done. I never said you supported Ferrari but to say 'oh well thats F1' is giving up on what the FIA is trying to achieve with this rule

[Roy]

So the question to me was did Alonso know that Massa was going to pull over when he did? I dont think he was aware that Massa got the radio call....but I think he wa hoping the team were going to tell him to move over....

Seems strange, as Alonso was the one saying that it wasnt fair for McLaren to be so called 'Favouring' Lewis back in his days at McLaren. But clearly likes a bit of pit wall radio action when it is him faster but not able to pass.

LOL, just as i was starting to like Alonso, i am reminded why back in 2005 he gave me the sh1ts

[Beer Baron]

I say thank you ferrari! I had a good feeling about gonzo after practice but before quali and put some cash on him at a lovely 8:1! sadly I also backed webber at 3.25:1 before quali only to have his odds blow out a bit, but gonzo shortened to about 2.50:1 after quali so I was happy to have gotten on when I did. thanks ferrari for that little gift. I can tell you know I was quick down to the TAB to cash in my ticket though..... luckily it's in the same building I live in! lol.

bummer webz went no where. as usual red bull strategy for webber was shithouse. fastest pit stop doesn't mean shit when it's executed at the worst possible moment. oh, and the comments by massa and gonza in the press conference were awesome. I fast forwarded through anything sookbastian ze-tool had to say of course... and suck it zetool. you are still behind webber due to webber having won more races than you champ... I mean chump.

[ctjet]

looking like a wet and wild weekend comming up

and can i be the first to say what an excellent weekend for it

i dont know how i could take 70 bone dry laps of this god awful track

[Kinks]

Team orders have always existed, despite the ban. It is widely suspected that teams use codes to talk to their drivers and achieve the best result for the team. For example "Lewis, you have to save fuel. Limit revs" means short shift and let Button past you. "Team orders what do you mean? Lewis was about to run out of fuel.. it's very unfortunate".

If not that then it's pit strategies that severely compromise one driver and let the other one in front. I've seen Webber left out a couple of times for laps and laps after his tyres have gone off and he is just getting swallowed up, I am almost shouting at the TV to pit him and if I can see it the guys who are paid big bucks to sit on the pit wall sure aren't missing it. No, they're getting the result they want (their poster-boy Vettel in front).

The difference is that Ferrari thumb their noses at everyone and make it blatantly obvious, and the average viewing idiot gets upset because it happens right in front of them. I don't care, if it's hidden then it just gets disguised as a pit strategy that doesn't work and loses the driver 10-15 seconds. Nobody likes seeing it but spectators want to see wheel to wheel racing, F1 teams want to win the championship. They are sometimes conflicting areas of interest because racers will all turn their engines down towards the end of a race and hold station to make sure they get the points.

[Do-Luck]

Does anyone know where it would be possible to find archives of full races from the late 80's and early 90's? I want to watch some of the racing I grew up with again.