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My review on the Eastern Creek Skidpan Fiasco.

Merli

By Merli,
in Events Archive

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Merli Grand Master

Merli

Posted
Posted

Firstly, I never said I was coming to partake on the skidpan. Until I get baffle plates in my sump, I'm staying away from any high G-force cornering. I did however come to take photos after lunch, so I saw quite a bit of action...

Okay.

So..... Aaron McGill lost $1400 on the day. We promised 50 people and only 29 1/2 turned up. We'll round it upto 30 for arguments sake. That means that we were down 20 people on what we promised.

So what's 20 x $50? $1000. So even if we produced the numbers we said we would, Aaron would still be down $400. Does that sound right to you? It sure doesn't to me.

So what does this mean? Think about it this way.

If you need 50 people each time you run a skidpan day, just to break even, it simply isn't feasible. 50 people is a LOT to secure for each and every trackday.......... But wait, it gets worse.

50 isn't the break even number. $4100 / $50 = 82 People. You want to secure AT LEAST 82 people, each and everytime you throw a skidpan day??? Are you kidding me? Personally I thought our effort of 30 people was EXCELLENT. Why don't we get those numbers at circuit days??? 82 people is WAY too many anyway.

So what does this mean? I'm sorry to say, but $50 is just too cheap. I realise that Paul (Oz97GTR) was left in charge of setting the price for SAU FORUM participants, which obviously backfired due to the tremendous amount of no-shows. But regardless of that fact, in my opinion, 82 people is too many for a skidpan day. By increasing the cost, you cut down on the number of participants, and make it easier to break even, as you aren't relying on as many people, which boils down to a fallible human component.

Please don't take this as an attack on Aaron McGill. That couldn't be more wrong. After my engine gets built, I would be EXTREMELY pissed off if a bunch of our FORUM members ruined everything and Motoconcepts and Aaron McGill stopped running trackdays and I couldn't goto any :D

I'm not sure if you noticed or not that I emphasised FORUM members. How many of the no-shows were SAU Members? That is, paid membership fee and aren't just forum posters? I have no idea, but I can take a guess. I know most of the SAU NSW Members, and I can't see them skipping out on a trackday committment unless they had a very good reason, and if it put someone out of pocket they would do the right thing and reimburse those who got burnt.

How about in future, SAU NSW MEMBERS get a discount, and pay a reduced deposit (50%?), but FORUM MEMBERS have to pay full price, up front. How's that for incentive for joining the CLUB, and not just posting on the free forums that Christian pays for?

Just my little ramble, after talking to Boosted Zed and Blitz about the big financial loss faced by poor Aaron last Saturday. Comments encouraged, and hopefully we can work this out and there will still be trackdays and skidpan days in the coming year.

Duncan Grand Master

Duncan

Posted
Posted

Merli, I think you're right re the price being too low.

Its funny how people won't pay $100 for a skidpan day, but will pay $2000 for a front mount. Pretty easy choice re which would be more fun, the big shiney intercooler or 20 skidpan days.

Personally I think its a huge shame that there's all these modified skylines running around in captivity (on the streets) but never get to run free on a track. Its a great chance to make the most of these great cars.

Also, as I said in my earlier post, I think deposits are a pain in the arse, but they are essential. Its too easy to say "yes" on a forum....in the days of internet banking its v easy to provide a deposit

And lastly, good on Paul, Dan etc for organising these days. They take a lot of running around to organise for very little return. And its even worse when they make a committment on behalf of the group and then they cant follow it throught :D

SuperGimp Enthusiast

SuperGimp

Posted
Posted

Im sorry to here that loss, I am a FORUM member and no a SAU NSW member yet, and I turned up, I didnt drive but drove 3 hrs from Orange to watch, and would paid 50 to go around with someone while they drove. I mean I would competed if I tought my car could hadle it but its old n crap and has mudflaps and looks nerdy and shudders when it drifts.....ill shutup, i need new suspension.

Kinks Grand Master

Kinks

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Posted

I think the cost was 100 each not 50, making the break even point 41 rather than 82. makes the numbers look more sensible that way!!

even 41/50 was a lot for a skidpan day, but it would have gone off regardless. I'm wondering how much having the forums down contributed to the absenteeism and how much was just due to people being slack.

Merli Grand Master

Merli

Posted
  • Author
Posted
I'm wondering how much having the forums down contributed to the absenteeism and how much was just due to people being slack.

:werd:

Lets see some stats from the organisers, and lets see who let the club down. What percentage were forum members and what percentage were paying SAU NSW Members?

The only way to stop this happening in future is to analyse how things got screwed up this time!

As for the $50, I got that from Paul's post asking for those who didn't turn up to pay $50 to Aaron. My bad... 40 people is a much more reasonable target :D

B-Man Grand Master

B-Man

Posted
Posted

Here's my 2c

Firstly:

It was MotoConcepts that organised the event not Aaron McGill.

Secondly - HGE thanks again to Oz for Organising, and very sorry that it left bad taste over the no shows.

I think this was (one of) the first time(s) MotoConcepts organised an event like this (well I know it was for SAU forum/club). So I'm guessing that they should have known that there was some risk at stake. As with any business - you win some and you lose some when you are trying stuff out for the first time.

Hopefully, Motoconcepts will realise that this day was a HGE success for those who attended. Also hopefully the bikes would have helped them offset any losses for the day.

Also, hopefully MotoConcpepts and Eastern Creek will realise that even 50 cars on the Skidpand and the Figure 8 is too may (in my opinion) and un-manageable.

We had 30 cars and I think that was the max. that could be done for the type of events like the other weekend.

Myself, I would be happy paying $150 for a day like that that's $4500 for the day assuming 30 cars. This still leaves the orgainisers with a very small profit.

Maybe Eastern Creek needs to come to the party and realise that you can only put some many cars on the two circuits and adjust their price accordingly.

Now if MotoConcepts don't hold these events for SAU club/forum anymore, because of the no-shows, I think this will be their loss - It was obviously a fantastic day and I'm sure we all want to do it again soon - I know I do ! I think if MotoConcepts don't put a regular program like this in place - then some other organisation will.

I agree with Merli re NSW Club discounts versus Forum Member prices - why did I pay my membership and contribute all I am to the club whilst others (non members) enjoy the same price that I pay ?

There obviously needs to be a fine balance here. And if we were to tackle a day like this as a club proper, I dare say we would not have had so many no shows - just by the fact that the NSW Club's reputation is at stake - Last weekend, it was Oz's reputation and goodwill with Motoconcepts at stake. With the club fronting the day, no-show could be dealt with internally and maybe the club wear the loss (if any) - or reap the benefit of any profit ! ! - it could controlled and managed much more easily for all sides.

What say - all those guys who said they would show up join the NSW club for say $75 (that's $25 more than normal) - Out of that $75 the NSW club could re-imburse Motoconcepts $50 per member - so of all 20 no-shows were to join - that would be $1000 to Motoconcepts. I'm sure they would appreciate the gesture, organise more days for us etc. At the same time, the NSW Club gets better scale of economies with the more members we have - therefore better discounts - we all know the benefits right ? And next drift day, we can organise it as a proper club event maybe ??

Lastly, my final 2c to the no-shows - please have a think about how this might affect the rest of us, and try and do the right thing now - and next time too - please !

benm Grand Master

benm

Posted
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I agree that 30 cars should be the limit for the 2 circuits. For the first part of the day it was pretty crowded and the queues were quite long (especially with how hot it was on the day) but by afternoon it was much more enjoyable after a dozen or so people left.

How many people realised it cost $10 per/person to be a passenger for the day? I paid my $10 and it would have to be the best $10 i've ever spent. I found that the organisers were quite lenient on passengers and 99% of the time didn't even bother to check if passengers had actually paid. I'd say their would have been easily 20 passengers on the day (some cars had 2 or 3 different passengers throughout the day).

I think if/when we organise another day like this we should be contacting another car club like the Silvia's or S2000's or someone else to help make up the (huge) numbers just like with regular trackdays how we are just a 'part' of the whole group.

People saying they will go but never show is just a fact of life, it happens all the time even just friendly cruises. I don't think i've ever been to a cruise or trackday etc where everyone showed up whom said they would showup, not much can be done about this except to make allowance for it and hope its kept to a bare minimum.

One idea for the next organiser would be rather then just having a set fee for a set day why not just list the "cost price" and then however many turn up then just cover those costs. Obviously some days it could be quite expensive and other days quite cheap.

ie; if it costs $4100 to hire the circuit and 50 people turn up then it only costs $82 for the day but if 30 people turn up then it costs $137. I think 30 for a skidpan day would be a worst case scenario and im sure most people would be happy to pay the extra $37 to get more "track time" then having to worry about certain people losing money jeopardising future events.

my 5c

red900ss Grand Master

red900ss

Posted
Posted

Sorry to hear Motoconcepts took a bath on this event. People who say they are going to show up and don't are a major problem.

Deposits to secure a place are the only way around this. Now if they didn't have the deposits then maybe they shouldn't have run the event.

Provided Eastern Creek don't/haven't changed the cost of hiring the skidpan Club events can be run with about 30 entrants and cost about $75/entrant.(price subject to change without notice yadda yadda ;) )

The Club can do it cheaper as the insurance is considerably less, no wages to pay, no major profit required.

B-man, I can see the merit in your idea of the $75 club deal but if people didn't show on the day then they're unlikely to pay $25 for an event they didn't attend. We can do precisely what you suggest if anyone is interested in joining the Club this way.

red900ss Grand Master

red900ss

Posted
Posted

OK. I just read part of the original thread. I will be cocntacting Dave tomorrow to explain that this was NOT an SAU NSW event, but an event organised by people on the skylinesaustralia.com forums.

It seems the line between the forums and the Club has been blurred and the Club's name is now the worse for it. ;)

Majanal Grand Master

Majanal

Posted
Posted

Dino did we also need to have CAMS officials for a skid pan day?

B-man,

There was no discount for Club members as this was not and official SAU - NSW Club event. Although I do like Merli's idea re deposits... might give it a go next track day.

benm,

I must say that while no shows are a fact of life if you take $50 out of them and make it a non-refundable deposit it certainly reduces those no shows. I have only had 2 since I started taking deposits near the beginning of this year. And that is a lot less than before.

Merli Grand Master

Merli

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Hmmm...

A major point of my post, which seems to have been missed :D, was that we should be doing things to encourage people to join SAU NSW Club and not just post on the forums and attend our trackdays/skidpan days.

Hence why I suggested a discount for Club members, and full upfront payment for non Club members.

Just a step to entice people to join the club.

Thoughts? Comments?

Majanal Grand Master

Majanal

Posted
Posted

Yeah I probably didn't make my self clear above. I think that that might be a good idea Merli... I might give it a shot for next track day... although it does sort of blur the line again between Club and Forums... I'll think about it for a while.

OZ GTR35 Veteran

OZ GTR35

Posted
Posted

Gents,

There are some very constructive comments above and since a few of the no shows actually sent Dave some money, I think he is slightly less pissed off with me and the group.

A couple of quick comments before I chat about how to move forward.

EC will not be reducing their price as they have heaps of other people wanting to run days and pay that price. I have seen the cost from other groups from $600 to $180 per person (about 20-40 people) with limited pan time (20min) per person, as they do more talking and less driving.

The event cost Moto $1400 for allowing us to use the skid pan, I think Dave said he basically lost the $1400 from the bike which was most of his profits. The result is, Dave will think again before wanting to run the skid pan day again.

The key issue was me not getting deposits because it is a pain in the ass. I suppose I was more angry with myself for trusting people to turn up!

The Skid pan cost are about $4500 for the day. 2 x Tracks + 2 x Instructors + Ambo's + Rescue + their time. If we can return Dave $4500 he might consider running the even again. But remember he needs to see some extra cash otherwise there is no value in him running it.

Moving forward,

Since I have had a chance to cool down I no longer feel as strong about not running this type of day again. If I was to do it again I would run the following format.

35 Cars, $150 for the day. Deposits $100 non paid members, $50 Paid Members, I can assume paid members will do the right thing. The deposit is transferable to another person if you have a last minute car/personal issue and the replacement person pays for the day. A stand by list will also be used to ensure we have numbers.

Assumed drop out rate of 5 cars on the day. $10 per passenger with wrist straps. Second driver same car, $50. With this format Dave will make some money, the numbers on the track will be about right.

I think if we to start with 30 people, you will have about 25 by lunch and say 20 by mid afternoon, with the usual assumed car issues and problems.

I will discuss this with Dave next year and see if we can put this together. If we have trouble getting enough people to the track I will invite the Silvia guys again.

B-Man Grand Master

B-Man

Posted
Posted
B-man,

There was no discount for Club members as this was not and official SAU - NSW Club event. Although I do like Merli's idea re deposits... might give it a go next track day.

Dan - I don't think it should need to be an 'official' SAU-NSW event for there to be member benefits !

Look at the Advanced Driver training that I oganised - All members benefited and non-members benefited too but not as much as members. ANd not an 'official' event.

If all our events are 'official' then there wouldn't many member benefits as you & I know 'we' can only organise so may official events in a year due to (a) Memebers and Exec Commitee willing and able to put in the time and (B) Not having CAMS qualified officials in the club enabling us to run certain events.

Surely there can be a way that Motoconcepts or SAU can distinguish club members, work a group deal thus members get benefits without there being any 'officialness' involved ??????

My 200 Rupiah

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