Circuit Cornering Theory

[MrStabby]

Is it ever better to go just past the limit of adhesion and get a little tail out, assuming it can be done smoothly? If so, when? Or will this be slower since static friction is higher than kinetic friction? (32 GTR, pretty sure the rear LSD is good)

[Roy]

Really, its such an impossible question to answer.

But put simply if the car is moving sideways then it isn’t moving forwards. If your steering angle is sharper then it needs to be then your lateral load is higher then it needs be which means tyres are being asked to do more work then need be….but that’s in the classroom. In a light NA car then it would kill you. In big heavy cars that flop all over the track and have the sort of power only racing cars had in past decades then a bit of crossed up action doesn’t cost you near as much.

[scathing]

If you're trail braking into a corner you can apply an amount of braking that would otherwise have you understeering, but is counteracted by the tail stepping out. It would theoretically let you brake deeper and carry a higher entry speed. Especially with an AWD car, you could rely on the front wheels to pull the car out of the bend if the weight shift didn't regain rear traction when you came off the brakes.

Being able to pull a move like that off consistently and accurately is another question. And, at any rate, using trail braking to slide the car around every corner would only ever be useful in a situation where tyre life wasn't important.

Also, if you saw Jenson Button's second visit to Top Gear they showed footage of the race where he clinched the season. He made a move where he dived up the inside of another car going into an S-bend, and kicked the tail out before the direction change.

He said he did it to make his car wider on the track and intimidate the other driver, stopping the guy from re-passing him and allowing Button to get to the next curve first.

Theoretically, as a tactic to maintain position (rather than improve time) it was better than not doing it.

[hrd-hr30]

Is it ever better to go just past the limit of adhesion and get a little tail out, assuming it can be done smoothly? If so, when?

I say yes. we're talking about a road car, or at least very much a production based car, with little to no areo, semi slicks, so limited mechanical grip, going for a single fastest lap time. Not about endurance racing, or even keeping tyres together for a 30 lap stint. And we're not talking about cars with lots of mechanical grip and areo.

I say smoothly loose is the fastest way. You need to be right out at the very edge of the envelope if you are going to get every last bit of time out of the car. Staying perfectly straight means you are staying inside of the car's limits. There's more to be had.

Look at videos of production based touring car racing, like Group A or Group C. Or look at the front runners in IPRA (they run semis). Look at how the top handful of drivers in Superlap do it.

[Marlin]

Agreed with Harry

[djr81]

Is it ever better to go just past the limit of adhesion and get a little tail out, assuming it can be done smoothly? If so, when? Or will this be slower since static friction is higher than kinetic friction? (32 GTR, pretty sure the rear LSD is good)

Which part of the corner are you talking about?

Generally you can divide it into four.

1. Braking

2. Turn in

3. Mid corner/apex

4. Corner exit.

Clearly you cannot stay on the limit of adhesion during all four parts.

But it is a common technique in a GTR to trail brake to during turn in. I usually do. The down side is that it can put you at a difficult spot in the mid corner as the car will want to understeer as you get off the brakes.

As for corner exit it is simply a matter of getting the car sufficiently neutral (ie trying to banish the understeer past the apex)so you can get on the powah & also programming the AWD system to keep the car balanced ( ie remove/reduce wheelspin & oversteer)

If you watch the formula fords or other low(ish) powered cars with little aero the fast guys are the ones who look a little loose in the midcorner. This allows them to get the power down earlier on corner exit.

Edited January 20, 2010 by djr81

[NickR33]

even the V8 supercar guys step the tail out a bit on corner exit... especially when on a hot lap during qualifying

however they are usually pretty neat on the way in... crossed up on turn in usually means you've made a mistake... or your a drifter

[NZM.031]

I say smoothly loose is the fastest way. You need to be right out at the very edge of the envelope if you are going to get every last bit of time out of the car. Staying perfectly straight means you are staying inside of the car's limits. There's more to be had.

im with him... get on the edge and push the boundaries... even if its slower, it will feel faster and make you happier, theatrics are better than lap times. i like to trail brake to make the back end loose and swing it out a little before the apex, then get on it after the apex, not full drift, but not fully straight. this keeps the rpm up and the car doesnt bog down as much when full grip comes back to the rear wheels. thats with a lowly rb20 though.

[juggernaut1]

You mean like this:

This car has also won the UK time attack pro class season for the second year running.

Edited January 20, 2010 by juggernaut1

[NZM.031]

thats tops.. yep, thats what i mean.

[boxheadmr]

I would say depends on the car you are driving as it seems with the evo's the rougher you drive them and make them slide around the faster you go.

With a FR car if you get the tail out then it limits the power you can get down and the exit speed is affected so i would say no.

FF rear out would be OK as aids in turn in with the nose of car moved around to point out of the corner sooner to allow you to get the power on earlier.

Matt

[fatz]

i find that i turn left the hit the gas

and for right handers i turn right then hit the gas

i red this in a book!

so the only logical conclusion is im farken shit hot and ful sik!

repeat above

[NZM.031]

i find that i turn left the hit the gas

and for right handers i turn right then hit the gas

i red this in a book!

so the only logical conclusion is im farken shit hot and ful sik!

repeat above

this man..... he knows.

[SABBAi]

You mean like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOP3_1TsXs4

This car has also won the UK time attack pro class season for the second year running.

Drving grass lines and ham it up with oober power gets you interwebs stylez points....

don't get me wrong it's looks to be damn fast, but being a bit tidier would probably be quicker. Tank slappers out of a corner is not fast.

Check out the same car midway through this video. It shows you why it has won the UK time attack pro class season for the second year running.

Edited January 22, 2010 by SABBAi

[Roy]

But AWD hackness means that you get away with murder!

[Ant97GTR]

Drving grass lines and ham it up with oober power gets you interwebs stylez points....

don't get me wrong it's looks to be damn fast, but being a bit tidier would probably be quicker. Tank slappers out of a corner is not fast.

Check out the same car midway through this video. It shows you why it has won the UK time attack pro class season for the second year running.

Agree with the above.

I'm a firm believer that smooth driving is the best way to yield time on a track. That being said as I got faster at a place like PI, the car steps into an 'oversteery' stance around a few corners as I feathered the throttle and re-applied. I also think that the fact I now trail brake into two of the corners allowed me to get under the 1:50 mark. Not only are you saving time in the braking zone but as I get off of the brakes the car steps out a little before getting back onto the gas which helps tighten the line and maintain speed.

[juggernaut1]

Drving grass lines and ham it up with oober power gets you interwebs stylez points....

don't get me wrong it's looks to be damn fast, but being a bit tidier would probably be quicker. Tank slappers out of a corner is not fast.

Check out the same car midway through this video. It shows you why it has won the UK time attack pro class season for the second year running.

I've seen that vid before from 3.15 onwards...much tidier....but then again Silverstone is a beautiful track...long wide sweeping corners.......if only we had those types of tracks in Oz .

Yes I'm sure the video link I posted of that car was a bit of a "promotional video" and clearly was not some of Olly Clarks best work.

Edited January 22, 2010 by juggernaut1

[badhairdave]

depends on where the next corner is and what you need to do to get through that one fast. It works for some drivers, some cars and some corners and not for others.

[No Crust Racing]

I say smoothly loose is the fastest way.

That's my thoughts on the subject also.

Having said that, there're obviously much more to it than loose or tight.

You can be loose or tight at differing speeds on the same corner given your angle of entry, exit, throttle pickup point, steering wheel inputs, throttle inputs, degree of braking skill etc. Not to mention what's coming up after the corner or how you navigated the previous section of track, your position in a race (if racing), if you're going for a fastest lap time or going the distance in an enduro.

That's the beauty of corners and racing in general, a million ways to do it wrong and right

At the very least finish the race/lap and that will put you ahead of some people

[Beer Baron]

the best way is the one that gives you the lowest number on the lap timer. I don't know what it is yet but when I find it I'll let you all know too. actually fk that. I'm keeping it to myself....