$ Value Of Genuine Gibson Motorsport Rb20det

[JAS-25T]

Though, mandrel bending is the most common form of bending used in an attempt to keep a constant diameter

[floody]

Just sms'd my mate re where he heard they were cast and he tells me he read it in HPI so ???? What floody has posted makes far more sense

HPI is definitely wrong. The GMS header they pictured is certainly not cast, and neither is the factory GTS-R manifold (they're clearly of welded construction in sheet, tube and plate).

[31GUN]

Floody's got it. Sand bent.

And there are joins in the pipes but you can only see them when they are red hot on the dyno

Lovely piece of work.

Hooks

[Sarumatix]

Out of interest, has anyone seen an RB20det-r sold? What was it worth?

[floody]

The motors themselves aren't worth any more than a regular redtop RB20DET, I see motor packages with all the GTS-R accessories regularly pop up on Yahoo Japan for slightly more than the GTS-R manifold and turbo usually fetches, so say $1600 or so (probably $2k by the time it gets here I suppose). A RB20DET-R minus the hot side was for sale for probably 6 months on there with a circa $100 start bid.

Edited January 24, 2010 by floody

[R31Nismoid]

Ye - they are basically just a red top RB20 with no major changes.

Only ECU/Exhaust manifold are the big noteable changes really.

I think someone said cams a while ago, but who knows - i dont think it's ever been checked.

[floody]

Throttle body is (apparently) bigger. I dunno if the cams would be much different if at all, ECCS redtop cams are already the biggest lift and duration of anything in an RB, except RB26 ones.

[31GUN]

DET-R is a bolt on job.

Larger throttle body.

Lighter flywheel.

Manifold.

Turbo.

Intercooler.

ECU.

I've got one.

Hooks

[Jetwreck]

Ash you missed a couple of my questions....feel free to answer with your infinite knowledge......I am sure myself and the rest of the forum would kill for this knowledge. I am sure I can get the exhaust manifolds made easier now but not necessarily alot cheaper.....I know for a fact that both the exhaust places that I use for other race cars would not go anywhere near them for under 6G and they have been in the game for a long time.......and this is with me suppling a set to copy from too.

You missed a couple of my questions.

1. Or is one of your workshops willing to keep remaking them for me until they are right? For $3.5K? - Please name em.

2. If I was to build a car to try to win a Championship I might well spend the money for the best equipment I can get. Would you not?

3. If you were to make an exact replica what would your process be? metal's, bends ect?

4. Was from a ex-gibson dev/demo car. HR31, N/A build plated shell just like all the others. The car/shell you are taking about is in QLD is it not?

and a couple more.

5. GMS probably had some of the best engineers....why would they have spent $9,000 if they really didn't need to.....do you think they had not tried other paths?

6. I have personally spoken to the guy who made them....as has Terry Ashwood, Rod Markland, Mark Hooker and others in NHM. Once you hear the process you might well change you mind on what we have been saying. Or have you already spoken to him?

Ash I have re-read all of you answers and responses and if you are prepared to be such an arse on how you answer people maybe it would be a good idea for you to take a chill pill. Sure my first comment may have come across a bit harsh " $2,500? your shitting me are you not.....it was in jest and shock not calling you an idiot! I don't claim to know everything and am quite willing to learn from others but I am not about to sit down and be spoken to like a simpleton on subjects that I have quite a bit of knowledge with....especially when people are shooting from the hip with no substantiated facts(not talking specifically about you either).

Anyway feel free to flame me mate....

Edited January 25, 2010 by Jetwreck

[NZM.031]

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo gooodie.... here we go again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yeehaw!

i think times have changed alot that is all... how good were the computers back in 1987 and 88?? nowhere near as good as they are now.. the old commodore 64 was great... but it wasnt that great.

i think what ash is getting at

what may have taken someone hours of mockups and planning and sketching and testing and building and calculations and scrapping and starting all over again, could now possibly be done in 30min by some geek wierdo kid and a cad program.. by knowing all the characteristics of the engine, aka, head flow, turbo speed and flow, cooler flow, swept volume, rpm, you could work out the pulse rate in the manifold and change the tube diameter, length or style to suit, you could knock it up on the pc and have a working picture before even thinking about picking up some steel.. with all the automated benders and welders that are of the time (hks' exhaust factory comes to mind), you may not even have to pick up a piece of steel.

look at american chopper... pooly can knock up a wheel sketch on his program, press enter, and the cnc machine starts going bezerk, 15 min later a perfectly cut wheel emerges and he hasnt even left his computer... it takes him longer to walk to the cnc machine than it does to cut the custom one off wheel... apart from the creativity time, materials, and machine expenses, that wheel, that custom, one of a kind wheel, costs no more than any other wheel, it can be replicated over and over again at the touch of a button.

what would be great to see is a reciept from the manifold builder...

actually i just had a thought.... i wonder if race cars are like weddings... everything is triple the price, for no reason other than people will pay it.

[R31Nismoid]

1. I don't own them, so im not gonig to comment. My comment was general to anyone with decent experience.

2. Cost does not equal best.

3. I do not make manifolds. Best off talking to people in #1

4. No idea where it is, been many years now.

5. You are comparing things from 2009, to then 1980's. Process changes, quality improves, costs reduce.

6. No doubt it is a long, time consming process

5 & 6 Linton has already covered pretty much how i would in more detail.

I never said anything about you being a simpleton, nor have i implied that.

If you've taken me as an "arse" with my responses over a PC screen, well that's your own choice, i certainly was not being one.

[NZM.031]

*pin drop*

[Jetwreck]

*echo!*

[31GUN]

Pin drop?

Uncalled for.

I say let Ash speak for himself.

Both R31 Nismoid and Jetwreck have solid points.

Whats more I am pretty sure I know you both.

Don't know about Linton. You're not coming off well my friend.

The manifold.

The original maker quoted me $9k to make another set. Fact.

It would not cost that much to make a set in this day and age,

but it would cost a fair bit more than some of the figures quoted in this thread.

That is if you made them to the same quality, remember, these manifolds have been absolutely caned all of their life with no sign of sag or cracking.

Show me another set of pipes that have put up with so much for so long.

Hooks

Edited January 25, 2010 by 31GUN

[twins]

I would happily pay $7.5-10k for such an engine... If anything that's a bargain!

In terms of dollar for dollar performance it obviously isn't going to win. I see it as more a way of standing out from the crowd of tuner SR20s and 25/30s. It's like an NA build 26 I guess most people don't see the point but someone out there wanted something different...

[31GUN]

Thanks for an honest on topic reply.

Hooks

[R31Nismoid]

^ I'd say it would be worth more personally. Just look @ what a solid 26 build costs, your into 5 figures before you even start to think.

Outta interest is there any crank prepping that has gone on or is it Nissan RB20 OEM?

Are the blocks factory and/or any filling/modifications for cooling?

Pin drop?

Uncalled for.

I say let Ash speak for himself.

Both R31 Nismoid and Jetwreck have solid points.

Whats more I am pretty sure I know you both.

Don't know about Linton. You're not coming off well my friend.

The manifold.

The original maker quoted me $9k to make another set. Fact.

It would not cost that much to make a set in this day and age,

but it would cost a fair bit more than some of the figures quoted in this thread.

That is if you made them to the same quality, remember, these manifolds have been absolutely caned all of their life with no sign of sag or cracking.

Show me another set of pipes that have put up with so much for so long.

Hooks

No point repeating what he said!

I'm not sure if i've met you personally Mark, i know i've not met Craig, either way i mean no ill with any comments made.

I am however guilty of too much passion and hasty posting

At least there is understanding from everyone (to a point of course) about the 9k manifold part being a bit on the rich side and realistically it's less than that in todays terms.

Side point - Factory GTS-R ones, as you'd know are quite good as well. I sold mine in perfect condition, not a crack after 20 years with some fairly hefty heat in there @ 370rwkw.

Gotta love Nissan, they did get some things right. Although i've heard of one cracking (Ron Libbis's old car), but yeh, the other examples are all ok interestingly.

[floody]

Yeah look, I'd agree with Twins, probably worth mildly built RB26 money really. Bit anachronistic in that they can't really go into anything newer than '88, and most people building a racecar wouldn't be running a 20 - not for $10k - anyway. But for that person who could and would use it, that seems realistic. Then theres the question of hang ons though... if it came with all the electronics, electromotive ecu gear, dry sump pump and reservoir and on and on that would surely pump the price above and beyond that of a long motor and hot side package.

[NZM.031]

Pin drop?

Uncalled for.

I say let Ash speak for himself.

Both R31 Nismoid and Jetwreck have solid points.

Whats more I am pretty sure I know you both.

Don't know about Linton. You're not coming off well my friend.

The manifold.

The original maker quoted me $9k to make another set. Fact.

It would not cost that much to make a set in this day and age,

but it would cost a fair bit more than some of the figures quoted in this thread.

That is if you made them to the same quality, remember, these manifolds have been absolutely caned all of their life with no sign of sag or cracking.

Show me another set of pipes that have put up with so much for so long.

Hooks

the pin drop comment was a light hearted joke, meaning that ash had spoken and all was quiet.. im on ash's side here.

no i dont know you, i dont know jetwreck, and i dont know ash personally, though i have known of him and conversed with him for nearly 10 years since R31skylineclub days.

im not worried how i come off to you... should i be?? that comment by you was uncalled for.

the original maker quoted you $9000 to make another set?? and?? are you willing to pay that?? is there $9000 worth of steel in the manifold?? is there $9000 of labour involved?? or is he just throwing out a figure?? i cannot look at that manifold and see $9000 in it.. i can see $1500 of steel and alot of time involved..

to someone who cannot make one, maybe its worth $9000

to me, its not worth $2000.

i think exhaust manifolds are one of the most overpriced modifications around.. everyone seems to charge ridiculous prices for them.

[Jetwreck]

@ R31Gun......Pretty sure that was Linton's way of get a response to Ash from me......you know those kids that used to stand behind the big kids in kindergarden shit stirring so they can get a fight started......same sort of thing......but some of us grew out of it!

@Linton....didn't know there were sides....shit this sounds like I'm back at pre school.....I am also with Ash and others on some of what they say....shit even you!.....and I don't care how long I have know them.....nor do I really care if they know me or not.

Just to straighten things out....as you seem to have dropped a couple of silly misplaced comments in. e.g. Pin drop(I did smirk and mumble to myself shit stirrer though), weddings.....

If you want to go and stir people into response's go then get some ball's and go the whole hog e.g. Tell you wife/girlfriend that she's got a fat arse while she's in the middle of her PMS cycle. ......make sure you video it for posting on youtube or Police evidence(Oh....not having a go a your wife/GF either as I have never seen her)

I have been an Industrial Designer on a CAD for 15 years and at no time have I ever been able to do or see someone else rack up a part design similar to the exhaust we are talking about in 30 minutes.....not even a day.....not to mention my hourly cost which I can tell you now is not cheap! I am sure HKS can make em.....how much though? For a one off?

Wedding's and cars have nothing in common other than most of us will loose our cars as soon as the wedding happens......P.S. maybe you should not type you thoughts in future.

The $200(or has it now gone up to $1,500) of metal you have estimated may be correct.....but the hours your going to put into em is where the cost is......are you going to garrentee these will be able to glow red for six's hours without falling apart. If you are you should be working for a major motor sporting team as you are in short supply. Also I will want your details for future reference just incase our main set which has probably done more race hours than any other Group A in the world since 1988 get damaged (Yes thats right not fall apart get damaged).

@Ash.....I am pretty sure the RB20 had standard cranks with special bearings'. The blocks are a bit special as well....they start standard.....then all the cooling ports are painted all the way though.....larger diameter oil flow points.......but the biggest piece of art me thinks is the sump and the baffle system they have put together....and all hand made. All in all there is nothing that special on the parts list.....it's just how its been executed.....like everyone has said....you can make more HP out of an RB20 these day's.......but can the motor sustain the high output and 8,800rpm for long periods.....unfortunately our races only ever seem to be about 8 laps....the cars are only just starting to work properly at that......they need at least 20 laps

@ the subject. I'm getting the feeling that one of these motors with everything(- ECU) is only worth 8k - 10K....thats a good price for a 2lt work horse that with get you 320KW's ATW's all day.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Jetwreck