Audio Install

[Robs0re_34]

This is the second R33 we have worked on.

This one was a little bit more involved, being that the whole boot had to be remade.

We wanted to keep the boot functional as well as a "wow" factor.

This was an toss up into shich forum we should put it in so we flipped a coin.

Feel free to move

Just a pre work shot.

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A pic of the boot install about halfway just measuring and planning, etc.

Finished pic of the LHS where we mounted the amp.

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Finished RHS sub with deadener behind (nothing worse than that ugly zzzzz noise with bass)

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New head unit installed nothing too special

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Any questions feel free to pm me.

[Carbon 34]

WOW factor ??? I dont see that , sorry. pretty average looking

[Robs0re_34]

thats the point. still a useable boot with the benfits of sound

[Carbon 34]

mine is usable and has 5 times the gear in it..spare included

[Robs0re_34]

Fare enough but this is what the client wanted.

He did not want an excessive sound system, meaning no db championships just a nice sound for a nice price.

We cater mainly for the guy's that want a basic system, which also dont have the technical knowledge or just dont want to do it themselves.

Also they can clearly see that the price asked by installers is too high.

[sydking]

looks simple and clean to me, good job.

[Shiraz200SX]

Nice, very clean and tidy. Definitely what i'd consider a good install.

Pity about the big orange piece of shit in the RHS though... better off making bass with your mouth beatbox style than with that thing. But people will only spend so much i guess.

[frx026]

I think for a shop to have done this is pretty ordinary and I dont think it is a good install to promote your business with.

If it was my business I wouldnt be telling anyone I let a car go that looked that bad.

So, heres a few questions based on the pics you posted up.

- Why is there a gap around the head unit?

- why didnt you modify the trim piece to fit around the head unit inside the factory dash piece so there was no gap?

- why did you only make a small half panel for the amp?

- how accessable is the jack behind that panel?

- why is there a gap at the top of the panel so you can see down behind it?

- why didnt you glue down the carpet on the amp panel properly so there arent any creases in it?

- why do the rca's travel down the drivers side and not passengers side making the rca's longer than they need to be?

- is the spare wheel still accessable?

- how can he change it if he cant get to the jack?

- Why is the sub not centred in its panel?

- Is the sub mounted in a box or freeair?

- what is the internal net volume of the box?

- how is sealed? silicone/glass/bondo/ct65 epoxy?

- why is there a gap at the top left of the sub's cover panel ?(it looks like you can see down inside it from above)

- why is the sub mounted at an odd angle? it doesnt have the cadence logo exactly at the top or at 45 degrees..

- why are there ugly brown grease marks on the sub panel ?(left hand side)

- Why didnt you cover the original boot trim pieces so you cant see two different color carpets in the boot?

As you said that people like this dont want to pay the high prices paid by installers?

Although i understand your client didnt want to spend money, but this is no better than a cheapo home job that a couple of guys driinkin VB could have done.

Thats why proper installers are worth more..

[Robs0re_34]

Ok,

First up as I stated before this is not a business just myself and my mate.

- Why is there a gap around the head unit? because we hadn’t put on the surround at the time of photo.

- why didn’t you modify the trim piece to fit around the head unit inside the factory dash piece so there was no gap? \

As above

- why did you only make a small half panel for the amp? pre rear wall install just to get the idea for what was going on

- how accessable is the jack behind that panel? very easy just a matter of lifting the carpet on the base unscrewing one screw and one on the support on top

- why is there a gap at the top of the panel so you can see down behind it? there is a very slight gap.

- why didnt you glue down the carpet on the amp panel properly so there arent any creases in it?

we did glue it down that 'crease' is where the door for the jack is. Remember still functional!

- why do the rca's travel down the drivers side and not passengers side making the rca's longer than they need to be?

once again just a rough photo over all, rca's path was changed

- is the spare wheel still accessable? yes the new floor pulls out as well as the rear. enabling access to spare and battery if need be.

- how can he change it if he cant get to the jack? as above jack is very easily accessed.

- Why is the sub not centred in its panel?due to space we wanted to keep it as far away from the boot support to lessen the likeliness of the bass vibrating it.

- Is the sub mounted in a box or freeair? free air, only due to time and what andrew wanted in his bass it has deadening in the space. so the dimensions arent exactly perfict but

- what is the internal net volume of the box? im not at home so i dont remeber off the top off my head

- how is sealed? silicone/glass/bondo/ct65 epoxy? silicone

- why is there a gap at the top left of the sub's cover panel ?(it looks like you can see down inside it from above)

as with most carpet when it is settling into its new shape, doesnt always hold even with the right 'glue' or staples.

it was fixed after that photo.

- why is the sub mounted at an odd angle? it doesnt have the cadence logo exactly at the top or at 45 degrees..

good pick up no idea oe of them things thought it was marked properly and wasnt

- why are there ugly brown grease marks on the sub panel ?(left hand side)that is the other guys finger prints that side is getting redone, andrew wasnt fazed at all so time is up to him. he wanted the car in a day and a half

- Why didnt you cover the original boot trim pieces so you cant see two different color carpets in the boot? once again it came down to time i said to andrew we can remake the backing piece so its all one piece, but he said dont worry about it all he cared about was the sound.

As you said that people like this dont want to pay the high prices paid by installers? - thats what i said and since this post and the car being around. more people have asked for similar jobs to this.

our job isnt perfect and we realise this, however being in the careers we are in (ADF & CPP), its a long way off what we do and its a cheaper solution.

It’s not for everyone that’s why before we commence first thing I say go and get a quote, then have a look at their work and ours. The choice is yours if you call back.

This is no better than a cheapo home job that a couple of guy’s driinkin VB could have done.

- Once again this in not a business (it basically is a home job), he was happy with the job and it was his car. The other people's cars we have done and haven’t put photo's up were also happy and it was their cars.

And if they had a problem we would of fixed it.

We enjoy doing this stuff on our time off and earning "VB money" (mayb Carlton or Corona! lol)

All we try to do is do a lot for a little.

Any other questions

feel free to contact me

[getyayayaout]

it looks pretty neat for a backyard job mate, well done.

but...theres a few things to consider from now on.

In Vic for instance, the VACC advises that this equipment, although reasonably low tech, has to be installed by a qualified electrical/electronic technician of some sort. that generally means an apprenticeship/traineeship at a workshop or tertiary course related to electronics. if you don't have the paperwork to back up your install their insurance may be void and if they stack their car with no insurance who they gonna blame....

secondly, if you're gonna be working electrically on cars, trucks, boats whatever...get some sort of business insurance. that'll save you if you make a mistake and the car gets damaged. for instance, if you wreck an amp cos it's hooked up wrong that could be $800 you have to cough up, the customer's not gonna pay for it remember. and get an abn...do it right first time and cover your ass

having said that i'm not assuming you haven't got all of the above, but you did mention its just a hobby etc between you and a mate

cheers and good luck

[frx026]

This whole thread does not add up.

Firstly you said it had the wow factor and was functional.

It failed on both of those points.

It is not fuctional. Having to unscrew panels to get access to tools/jacks etc it hardly easy.

Wow factor.. I did say wow to myself.. in the following sentence.. "wow, I cant beleive someone paid for this"

I do appreciate that you took the time to answer some of my questions but I dont get how you can have a subwoofer mounted in a free air configuration and then talk about volumes of boxes or sealing.

They are two very different things.

With that woofer a free air mount would sucessfully make a bad sub sound worse. I'd be surprised if a free air cadence sub would outperform a set of 6x9's for bass.

Especially with the gap at the top of the sub panel which would cause a lot of cancelation and result in less bass again from a free air mount.

I realise that you said it was all fixed after the owner got the car. But i dont understand if it was fixed why you would put up pics to promote your services that showed so many obvious faults.

I also wonder how as you put it "if other people had a problem we would have fixed it"... I wonder how you would have fixed it if you have no idea of what you are doing.

I'm also wondering what that amp is actually running, just the free air sub or is it set up in tri-mode.. Which has to be one of the ugliest ways to wire an amp.

Either way. I am not a fan.

I think your lucky to have found some idiot to pay you for a cheap job.

And to anyone else reading this..

These type of installs are why GOOD installers are worth every cent.

These type of jobs are why a decent install isnt the cheapest option.

These type of jobs are what makes the Car Audio industry as a whole look like a bunch of drunken backyarders (even by your own admission).

Also to the guy that talked about VACC. It might surprise you to know that hardly any car audio shops, even the major chains have any affiliation or approval from VACC.

I have also never heard of an australian apprentice system for a car audio installer as there is no formal qualification for it. There is a TAFE course, but a primary school child could pass it. Of those who have passed it not all are good installers.

An electronic technician may also be good at circuit boards, but most of them are useless at installs. Or at least that has been my experience.

Insurance.. And I know this one after working as a contractor for NRMA.. Unless the equipment directly results in the claim, eg, crash caused by amplifier under pedal or car burnt down by wiring and it can be proven that the install was not listed on the policy or made the vehicle unroadworthy then the insurance will not be effected.

The worst that will happen is that the insurance company wont cover the replacement cost of the sound system. FACT.

You can purchase equipment and fit it yourself. You can claim the cost of the equipment, but not of the install. FACT.

The excess on a typical business insurance policy for a typical store, or at least ones I have been involved with would be a lot more than the cost of a replacement amp @ $800.00. FACT

[Robs0re_34]

hi guys,

thanks getyayayaout for the boost (lol)

i think anyone would try and top them selves if they listened to every one's advice on forums.

i have checked it out with my accountant and until the 'business' earns over or uses over $2000 i don't need an ABN and due to work being hectic there hasn't been any time for fun. dam u one day series LOL

i understand were your coming from with the amp situation but i wouldn't expect the "client" to pay for my stuff ups.

i have a Cert III in Motor sport Engineering which even though centred on motor sport we did stray alot to other field eg panel building, auto elec, dyno etc.

frx026 i get were your coming from i really do, the only reason this install happened was because of 2 different 'pro' installers i am not naming names but in my area there is 2 popular ones. one is a complete wanker and didn't really car for any basic system (under 1K) and made it quite clear through his abruptness.

The other is either two busy or charges $400 to install a amp and head unit (it does very though i think they pull numbers sometimes)

the whole alcohol thing was a tongue in check thing, due to assuming that we down south drink VB. (i gather your notfrom Vic? NRMA?) FYI we drink when were done ROFL

Taking a personal dig at me was unnecessary how do you know i have no idea because you see one rush job? (granted i posted the photos, but more to see peoples responses)

Look at the end of the day we do it for a hell of alot cheaper than they do we have fun a person who really doesn't car about the volume dimensions in there sub box (usually buys the cheapest one!!) is happy and u arent so thank-you for critism it has been noted for our next project.

[Carbon 34]

Fare enough but this is what the client wanted.

He did not want an excessive sound system, meaning no db championships just a nice sound for a nice price.

We cater mainly for the guy's that want a basic system, which also dont have the technical knowledge or just dont want to do it themselves.

Also they can clearly see that the price asked by installers is too high.

I think PJ is right on the money, you sound like your drumming up clients ??? (based upon the above statement and a few others which is against SAU rules unless you pay the proper fees )

I also think you have a long way to go to become a serious installer, or even basic systems installs ,and audio theory of acoustics in a car are way off the mark. fabrication is a long way off too, carpet for a house or from bunnings from the looks of it ...doesn't fold conform to car shapes, and wont stay glued in the heat here. the wood is pretty much straight off the saw, not shaped to fit properly. when you drive that Cadence sub free air in the boot the odds are it will fry the voice coil, you wont hear the distortion till you see the smoke and open the boot.

what are the xover points, from the looks in your photos you have the gains maxed out, bass boost maxed out,and the freq cut off around 60hz or less, unless you have a better photo ? that is a combination for distortion and dead sub.

do you know how to run a amp mixed mono ? what ohm loads are and how they relate at certain freq. ?

what ohm load are you running that amp on ? and what else is wired on it ?

car audio may seem Soooooo basic but in the end it isnt, a simple mistake can lead to a lot of issues,some not so pleasant, and not safe.

to the people reading this, it may sound harsh but these installs are the main reason pro installers hate backyard installs, cause when it breaks,,,,and it will !! we get to sort out the mess, charge the client twice for a job that should have been done right the first time, and possibly replace the dead equipment, which pisses you off cause you lump us into the "backyard installer group"... so think about it, you can pay the PRO now, or later .

(disclaimer, dont get me wrong ,,we all have to start off somewhere but dont sell your wares until you know what the hell your doing???? it gives Pro installers a bad rap )

close the thread before the pissing match begins, I could post up a thousand photos of bad installs and the results of them.

lets keep the help positive to fellow members who want to learn how to do it the right way.

end rant

[getyayayaout]

Also to the guy that talked about VACC. It might surprise you to know that hardly any car audio shops, even the major chains have any affiliation or approval from VACC.

I have also never heard of an australian apprentice system for a car audio installer as there is no formal qualification for it. There is a TAFE course, but a primary school child could pass it. Of those who have passed it not all are good installers.

An electronic technician may also be good at circuit boards, but most of them are useless at installs. Or at least that has been my experience.

No, that doesn't surprise me at all. But from what I know, the VACC recommends all install work is carried out by a technician of some sort. and what happens when a bad connection burns something down? insurance void. FACT

As far as you saying a primary school student could pass the TAFE course; how would you know? have you completed the course yourself? most TAFE training schemes are great and give hands on experience, the particular course you are referring to ensures students undertake work place training to learn the trade so please don't say "of those who have passed it not all are good installers". don't pass judgement unless you know.

[frx026]

Also to the guy that talked about VACC. It might surprise you to know that hardly any car audio shops, even the major chains have any affiliation or approval from VACC.

I have also never heard of an australian apprentice system for a car audio installer as there is no formal qualification for it. There is a TAFE course, but a primary school child could pass it. Of those who have passed it not all are good installers.

An electronic technician may also be good at circuit boards, but most of them are useless at installs. Or at least that has been my experience.

No, that doesn't surprise me at all. But from what I know, the VACC recommends all install work is carried out by a technician of some sort. and what happens when a bad connection burns something down? insurance void. FACT

As far as you saying a primary school student could pass the TAFE course; how would you know? have you completed the course yourself? most TAFE training schemes are great and give hands on experience, the particular course you are referring to ensures students undertake work place training to learn the trade so please don't say "of those who have passed it not all are good installers". don't pass judgement unless you know.

I have my TAA40104 - Which is the certificate required to teach the Tafe course amongst other qualifications. I have seen it from a trainers POV and it is rubbish. I have also seen it from a recruiters POV with almost 80 graduates of this course and none of them that I have met have been any good.

A tafe course does not mean that you are good at something. It means that you can undergo a particular assessment and be passed as competant. It does not provide a score of how competant you are. The tafe system is also aimed at getting the students across the line even though they might not be that good at what they do.

I am also basing this on the fact that I have met so many "graduates" of this course that cant wire up a relay, require cheat sheets for alarms, arent able to figure out airbag wiring or in some cases even how a modern dash comes apart. I have lost count of the amount of so called installers that have trouble diagnosing problems when they read the cheat sheets wrong. I have seen people set off airbags with the wrong testing procedure. I have seen so many say it cant be done when it is not a straight forward fit. I have seen people who cant trim panels, cut panels or even understand how the theile small specs of a woofer relate to the vehicle, its accoustics, the enclosure and the other equipment in the system.

It is simply not time practical for a Tafe course to teach all the skills required. So they brush over most of it. They teach the student to pass the course, not to be an effective or skilled worker.

Even by AQTF standards the course itself doesnt stack up well as the level of knowledge taught to the students varies on the instructor. This is very different to other courses within the VET system and not within the AQTF packaging rules as set out by NTIS.

In fact TAFE courses have to provide a level of equity and that means that they can be done with simulated work place knowledge or by distance education. This is one of the rules to ensure that all potential students get access to training regardless of location or educational background. It possible to do this course without a work placement.

All RTO's and Tafe's must operate with AQTF rules as published by NTIS. Other wise the course becomes a non accredited course and they are even more worthless.

For the record, I would never waste my time teaching this course. Trainers simply dont earn that much and the units covered in the course dont reflect the direction of the automotive industry as a whole with the ever increasing integration into canbus or other unique wiring systems implemented by manufacturers to limit the amount of aftermarket products that can be installed into a vehicle.

I understand what you are saying about VACC and their guidelines. If in the event they applied it they would only be able to refer you to a very small number of audio installers in the state. None of the major chains would even get a look in.

About the only thing I can see VACC being useful for to the car audio industry is airbag removal procedures. Although having said that I have seen car dealerships remove airbags with a flat blade screw driver and a hammer. And those are the preferred VACC destinations.

Your wrong about insurance. As stated I have done contract work for NRMA among others, GIO, AAMI, Just Cars and have seen all sorts of things that have been paid. If the end user can produce an install receipt they pay. In the case where its a home job they pay less the cost of the system.

I am not able to provide any more information on insurance than what i have done as I am not a registered insurance agent and cannot provide you a PDS with the terms, conditions or exclusions to specific policies.

To the guy that asked, I am based in Melbourne, however I have held National positions within the Car Audio Industry both within retail and wholesale. More recently I have moved into the larger Automotive Industry at a national level.. And all after starting as an installer 16 years ago... Its been a long climb and a lot of night school to get a long list of qualifications. But all worth it.

However, I dont pretend to know it all. There is always something new to learn.

But I stand by all my comments in relation to the tafe course being rubbish, the vacc and how insurance is assessed and payed.

sapphiregraphics - thanks for the comments - I think we are on a very similar train of thought.

[getyayayaout]

Mate, clearly you have a very very closed minded view of the world.

To assume that all or most graduates of this TAFE course are, as you hinted in your rant, useless demonstrates this. Let me just say I've been to TAFE, university and worked in the industry and it was at TAFE i learnt how to: hook up a relay, interpret engineering drawings, calculate the ohmic rating of a resistor, diagnose faults in electronic components, fabrication of all types of vehicles, design etc.

The TAFE course is not rubbish, it is a start in the industry. It is down to the individual as to what they seek to get out of it. And to all the guys who have come on here and said they'd never employ anybody who has passed this course....who cares

[frx026]

Mate, clearly you have a very very closed minded view of the world.

To assume that all or most graduates of this TAFE course are, as you hinted in your rant, useless demonstrates this. Let me just say I've been to TAFE, university and worked in the industry and it was at TAFE i learnt how to: hook up a relay, interpret engineering drawings, calculate the ohmic rating of a resistor, diagnose faults in electronic components, fabrication of all types of vehicles, design etc.

The TAFE course is not rubbish, it is a start in the industry. It is down to the individual as to what they seek to get out of it. And to all the guys who have come on here and said they'd never employ anybody who has passed this course....who cares

Thanks for your personal assessment of me.

I'll stick to my close minded ways in my senior executive job. A job that actually has influence on the automotive industry and the products we choose to supply people like you.

I also just wanted to clarify something seeing you didnt understand my "rant" as you called my reference to actual training packages and their contents.

I didnt at any stage hint that the tafe course and its so called graduates are useless.

I stated clearly that the course and its "graduates" are rubbish and not worth employing. Or in your terms useless.

No subtle hinting there.

Once again, the tafe course, its graduates, its teachers and the course structure are without a doubt useless and play no useful part in the car audio industry in this country.

I hope that last sentence clarifies it for you.

As for who cares?

Well, people like me care, and then we choose not to employ people like you.

Edited February 11, 2010 by frx026

[getyayayaout]

Thanks for your personal assessment of me.

I'll stick to my close minded ways in my senior executive job. A job that actually has influence on the automotive industry and the products we choose to supply people like you.

I also just wanted to clarify something seeing you didnt understand my "rant" as you called my reference to actual training packages and their contents.

I didnt at any stage hint that the tafe course and its so called graduates are useless.

I stated clearly that the course and its "graduates" are rubbish and not worth employing. Or in your terms useless.

No subtle hinting there.

Once again, the tafe course, its graduates, its teachers and the course structure are without a doubt useless and play no useful part in the car audio industry in this country.

I hope that last sentence clarifies it for you.

As for who cares?

Well, people like me care, and then we choose not to employ people like you.

And nor would I ever work for a person of such ignorance.

Senior executive position? Then how do you find the time to be so unprofessional and abusive toward the op of this thread? Perhaps a hobby wouldn't go astray

It's a great shame that people like you are in a position of prominence, no wonder its a dying trade.

Anyway mate, don't reply because I and many others I'm sure couldn't care what you have to say.

Cheers

[Zobo88]

And nor would I ever work for a person of such ignorance.

Senior executive position? Then how do you find the time to be so unprofessional and abusive toward the op of this thread? Perhaps a hobby wouldn't go astray

It's a great shame that people like you are in a position of prominence, no wonder its a dying trade.

Anyway mate, don't reply because I and many others I'm sure couldn't care what you have to say.

Cheers

I agree with getyayayasout!

Frx if you were such a pro why do u have so much time to write essays which no one cares about on the net? You're pathetic and I highly doubt you're quAlified. You're hiding behind a computer for all we know you could be googling your so called facts!! So go do your job and stop harrassing everyone else dickhead!

[Carbon 34]

Gee, first post and you flamed someone... can you say BAN your IP range

don't think your comments hold any water