Learning The Limits.

[KezR33]

I've never driven my car hard, but I'm heading to Sandown with Driver Dynamics next month for my first real track experience. My question is, how do you know when your car is about to let go?

I'm not going to rush out there and try anything foolish, but are there signs to look out for? I know my mate pegs his Evo around corners, cornering so hard the wheels scream like all hell. I've never done that in my Supra, but are squeeling tyres a sign you're about to lose it, or is it just normal on hard cornering?

Or is it simply a matter of getting out there, and gradually getting quicker and quicker until the car finally does let go, hopefully at a sane speed you can recover from?

Also, what do you do when you lose it? Slam on the brakes and start praying? I guess this is part of what Driver Dynamics will teach me on the day.

Thanks.

[scathing]

What tyres are you running on?

For most street tyres, they'll start to squeal before they let go. Squeal is the rubber starting to lose grip and start to slip a little. It's easier for an Evo to get the tyres squealing since the AWD system will do the driving for him, so he doesn't have to worry about spinning out.

Depending on how close you'll get to the limits, the tread blocks will squirm and so the car will start to feel a little loose.

I find R-Comps don't telegraph that zone between traction and no traction as much. They don't really squeal, and the blocks don't squirm.

If you lose it, my personal preference is to try and drive out of a small slide. Generally if I hit the lock stop on the steering wheel, or if the car starts fishtailing and I can't bring it back within 2-3 flicks, its brake and clutch time. I've seen quite a few people think they could drive out of a slide or fishtail, making it worse, and end up putting the car into a wall.

[ssxRicho]

when your driving on the road and even through the twisties you cant "really" feel the car. when your on the track

it feels like your ass is attached to the chassis. its a good feeling

[S13Deviat]

At the limit is almost the wrong phrase to us..... you are not going fast driving at 95-100%, smooth and flowing is the key IMO. Learn the lines, apex's and concentrate on hitting those before worrying about giving it 11/10ths!!!

I always knew that smooth was fast, but never really took much notice until at E/C, i was trying really hard all day to go quicker, but to no prevail. Then in the last session i figured i would just go out and take it easy, just concentrate on getting the 'lines' right.... much to my delight, this 'easy last session' yielded my PB by about half a second......

If your on the edge, your not going to be quick!

For your first time, limit yourself to 80-85% 'balls' You see a lot of first timers drive like maniacs, unfortunatley they are the ones that end up with their tail between their legs........

Have fun, enjoy the experience, and build from there!

Thats my Dr Phil speal finito

[No Crust Racing]

Kez finally gonna pop his cherrie

You should have come with me to some Winton days mate, I could have taken you for a spin in the SlowVia to at least give you a few basic pointers.

Now, as Alan said above (btw Al when did you get an MR2?!) tyre squeel is not the best indicator, especially on street rubber.

Don't compare your car to Chris' Evo either as he can torch tyres all day and stay on the black stuff, you're Supra will spit you out very quickly if you get too agressive.

It's a heavy RWD car and when loaded up to one side it will easily spin the inside wheel and make all kinds of noise and carry on in the rear end. Which is just like pretty much every other stock suspension RWD car out there.

These driver training days are awesome and the idea is you start out slow/comfy and get quicker throughout the day progressing at a comfortable and SAFE pace foryou and your car.

To answer your question, it differs from car to car, corner to corner, and with many other variables like tyre temp, road temp gradient of the road, where you choose to apex, and the list goes on and on and on. There's no single answer to what it feels like when a car is letting go. You will learn to determine between under and oversteer, spinning one wheel as opposed to both rears, locking up one or more wheels and so on. Each has it's own set of basic guidelines.

Bare in mind too that some tyres, regardless of price/brand make much more noise than others at a given speed. You will have to slowly learn to 'feel' the car and learn when it is starting to go.

If and when you do start to lose it (front or rear end) you only have a few seconds to react so don't over correct and remember to be gentle on your inputs.

A very small counter steer and a slight lift of throttle is often enough to keep the car moving along pretty much as you intended. It's when you start winding on massive lock and stomping throttle or brakes that you end up spinning out massively, tagging walls or fish tailing wildly before doing one of the other two.

The had part is staying calm and using gentle inputs, not slow inputs just gentle. If the car is heavy loaded to one side or front to back and you go changing the direction of momentum abruptly you will have more issues than you started with.

Take it easy, get to know the car, get to know the track, listen to your driver trainer. Enjoy yourself and bring it home in one piece:)

[djr81]

Try this for an explanation of the self aligning torque you feel through the steering wheel versus the slip angle the tyre is generating.

http://www.creativecarcontrol.co.uk/modelgrip.htm

[No Crust Racing]

Great link.

Love this bit...

Drivers tend to operate very aggressively in times of stress and in general they tend to move the steering wheel far too far during the initial phase of a corner (especially in an emergency) because they don't get the instant response they want.

Less is invariably more.

[djr81]

Great link.

Love this bit...

Drivers tend to operate very aggressively in times of stress and in general they tend to move the steering wheel far too far during the initial phase of a corner (especially in an emergency) because they don't get the instant response they want.

Less is invariably more.

Yeah but the point is you need to find the maximum grip the tyre has which will coincide with a certain amount of steering input (brake & accelerator input aside). If you find reach that point more or less steering input can & will only reduce the cars cornering grip. It is a point lost on too many people.

[No Crust Racing]

Agreed, hence my comments above regarding feel.

That link does a great job of explaining the concept though.

[KezR33]

Thanks for the responses guys, although much of that link went right over my head, it seems very advanced and technical. I'll read it again tonight with wiki open in another page.

As for the other questions, I'm currently running Kumho KU36s on the front, and some Hancook street tyres on the rear. The reason for this is the front tyres were gone (due to a misalignment) but the rear have plenty of tread. I'll eventually get some KU36s on the rear too.

My other problem is that I recently upgraded the rear sway bar to a Whiteline one, since it was highly recommended on the Supra forum to combat understeer. Combined with the extra grippy front tyres I now suffer from massive oversteer. Is there anything I should watch out for? My understanding is understeer will be more likely to cause my rear to kick out.

Would it be worth investing in stiffer swaybar up front too? The TT model ones are stiffer than the NA, but I could also get an adjustable whiteline one, and set the front to the softest setting, and stiffen the rear so as to get a good balance between under/over steer.

Thanks again.

P.S. Dan you should come to DECA.

[Gunnar_11]

Aside from what's been said above just remember your car won't have the same chuckability as your mate's Evo

[No Crust Racing]

Is the rear adjustable? Depending on how stiff it's set can induce oversteer in the rea cupled with less tyre grip at the back than up front.

Firmer is generally a good thing but to a a point. You might notice that drift cars are set crazy stiff everywhere usally where as a circuit/trac car will have softer settings.

This line isn't right "My understanding is understeer will be more likely to cause my rear to kick out. " Understeer will cause your car to travel in the direction of the cars momentum regardless of steering wheel input. That is, you will be pointing left or right but the car will pretty much be going where the rears are pointing instead.

[KezR33]

Heh, yeah I meant oversteer. Which is what I'm getting now. The rear is adjustable, I had the tyre join fit it when I had the Kumhos put on the front and figured they'd use the softest setting. Guess I'll have to get under there and have a look.

Cheers.

[No Crust Racing]

Ahh ok, well if it's already on the softest setting and it's oversteering then your tyres are the issue (that and a torquey engine).

Time for some rear rubber and if you have that much oversteer it won't be long before you need rears anyway.

As for DECA, I'm thinking about it. If I do come I'll be putting my old rims and street rubber on and just going for shits and giggles rather than times.

[hrd-hr30]

you'll always strugle to balance out the handling with mis-match front and rear tyres.

personally, I'd refit the standard rear sway bar and buy those KU36 rears before your track day.

Edited February 14, 2010 by hrd-hr30

[scathing]

If you're on a budget (i.e. no money at all), depending on how oversteery the car is just disconnect the rear swaybar. You can leave all the hardware in place, but if the bar isn't connected to the suspension then it'll provide no anti-roll effect.

If you have access to tools and a pair of jacks (or a trolley jack), take them to the track. If you're finding the oversteer counter-productive in your first session or two, jack the car up so both wheels are off the ground and disconnect the bolts from the drop links to the swaybar itself. Instant oversteer cure. Everything will probably be a bit warm so bring gloves.

You might find it too understeery as a result, but understeer is safer than oversteer. The last thing you want to do is put the car into a wall because you spun out.

[Roy]

Finding the limit of the car???? Seat time . Then get someone in the crazy seat next to you that is a professional and more seat time to break your bad habits.

What you are doing and what you think you are doing are entirely different things and you need an experienced person next to you to correct it. But up to that point you need plenty of seat time so that you can do your own learning first.