Aeromotions Dynamic Wing

[RICE RACING]

Awesome result, but hats off to the multiple computers driving the car. Applying power to wheels, changing gears for you etc.

I can see the next model GTR will just have a kiddie steering wheel (like you buy for your son) that you twirl, and you can make Vroom Vroom noises while you do 56? second laps

[fatz]

Dont say that mate!

Nothing wrong with wrestling an old godzilla [with 400+kw's] around for an albeit slower but just as/if not more exciting lap!

Meanwhile back on the ranch.. Congrats on the 1:02. Brilliant result!!!

acceleration out of corners is awsome

just awsome

mid range power!!

do they make one that looks like a 31 on the outside?

[Martin Donnon]

I love those computers that drive the car, I really do. Can we have some more?

[fatz]

speaking of computer hate

i say ban abs in super sprints

would be heaps more fun/scary/deadly

[fungoolie]

I love those computers that drive the car, I really do. Can we have some more?

I say bring back hand throttles, drum brakes, crossply tyres and ban synchros and torsen diffs!!!

Edited April 6, 2010 by fungoolie

[LSX-438]

It's tempting to think the r35 drives itself; obviously it's an extremely capable car. What most don't realise (or perhaps happy to ignore) is that you need to turn traction control/vdc OFF to get lap speed, period. Even with a simple tune the stock (VDC) calibration can't cope. It's too intrusive. If you rely on "race-mode" for outright grip you will go backwards. I would imagine it's the same for most modern road cars, but i dunno really.

And it's a very heavy car. Driving 1700kg+ for these lap times does require a certain finesse, i dont care how easy it looks. Those used to cars several hundred kegs lighter (whch i am betting 95%+ of cars running similar laps times are) will be in for a rude shock.

At the end of the day, the RELATIVE EFFORT required to extract more (or anything approaching optimal) from something so very good isnt necessarily easy, in fact in some ways that's a more difficult thing to do. That last fraction of extra performance is not low hanging fruit, regardless of the hardware, I dont care if it's a VB 253 commodore or an F1 car, same rules apply i reckon! Just my $0.02.

[RICE RACING]

It's tempting to think the r35 drives itself; obviously it's an extremely capable car. What most don't realise (or perhaps happy to ignore) is that you need to turn traction control/vdc OFF to get lap speed, period. Even with a simple tune the stock (VDC) calibration can't cope. It's too intrusive. If you rely on "race-mode" for outright grip you will go backwards. I would imagine it's the same for most modern road cars, but i dunno really.

And it's a very heavy car. Driving 1700kg+ for these lap times does require a certain finesse, i dont care how easy it looks. Those used to cars several hundred kegs lighter (whch i am betting 95%+ of cars running similar laps times are) will be in for a rude shock.

At the end of the day, the RELATIVE EFFORT required to extract more (or anything approaching optimal) from something so very good isnt necessarily easy, in fact in some ways that's a more difficult thing to do. That last fraction of extra performance is not low hanging fruit, regardless of the hardware, I dont care if it's a VB 253 commodore or an F1 car, same rules apply i reckon! Just my $0.02.

R35 Computers change gears for you, they brake for you, they put down the power for you. That is a biggest portion of what makes up a good lap & makes it available for even the inept. To get it is a commitment to speed (you) and knowing when to toggle the computers on and off (you pressing the accelerator and brake).

Its not real driving, fast no question about it, but not real

[LSX-438]

By definition I guess i'm not a real driver Don't you think you're being a tad protagonistic? Not interested in taking the bait so i will just respectfully disagree and move on.

[Duncan]

RICE RACING you have made your point (whatever it is) more than once in this thread, and it counld not be more off topic of the effectiveness of dynamic wings on an R35.

If you want to discuss (or troll, or whatever), computers in R35s start a seperate thread.

[RICE RACING]

By definition I guess i'm not a real driver Don't you think you're being a tad protagonistic? Not interested in taking the bait so i will just respectfully disagree and move on.

Do the company provide you with levels of down force & drag for certain wing angles relative to speed?

I agree with you on the potential for placebo effect btw. Hard thing to test at the end of the day, too many variables, and not enough consistency for all us if we are honest. I will try to find a link you blokes would maybe like that shows how to go about testing something like this.

[RICE RACING]

^ You could adopt similar type test, using your race logic and circuit tools software for example

[TheTunersGroup]

Tested the wing at Wakefield yesterday, picked up about one second! Very happy.

Great work Duncan !

Fark me that is moving. Is it the fixed wing or variable one? Also, did you have newer tyres, different wheel alignment, more power/different tune etc. That is a massive gain from just putting on a wing at a slow circuit like Wakefield, espcially over a 62 second lap....are we sure its all down to the wing ?

Tyres are the same but a different/newer set (i have used them for one other track day) so there may be some time there, not sure. The wing is variable/active but i was running it with a very agressive maneuvering angle (probably less than 1* vs braking mode angle) ...

The bigger question is, did the extra downforce play a role... i think it did. We have data from another r35 on the same day (with stocker wing) and you can see where it comes into play on the charts quite clearly ...

edit: otherwise same power/alignment

There is a comment from Kunani who owns the Budez R35 which is running an Aeromotions Dynamic Wing on this page ... http://www.tunersgroup.com/Products/aeromotions.html ... which reads ...

"In general the tracks we have been on are around 2 minute laps and the wing in an active mode shaves 1.5 to 2 seconds off each lap."

So a drop in lap time of "about one second" at Wakefield reported by Duncan running the Aeromotions Dynamic Wing doesn't surprise me at all.

Aero changes can make a significant difference to lap times, as mentioned in the many comments from other drivers who are running the Aeromotions Dynamic Wing.

Also a was comment posted on Nagtroc from a driver who was running the static version of the Aeromotions wing which reads ...

My GT-R was transformed with the wing. I dropped 1.5 seconds on a 1:20 course at Roebling Road, and the difference in feel is immediately noticable.

I could transition to full power earlier at corner exit, and the high speed oversteer I had been fighting was completely gone.

I am running the static wing for now. I imagine the active will add another few tenths of a second at least.

This wing is one of the few, that has some serious science and research behind it.

On an aero setup like Duncan ran at Wakefield, where he said "i was running it with a very agressive maneuvering angle (probably less than 1* vs braking mode angle)", you get more downforce in cornering than running the wing at a less aggressive angle of attack, and on a track like Wakefield where cornering speed is very important, cornering downforce and cornering grip can play a significant role in lap times.

That tunability of being able to choose what angles of attack you run the Aeromotions wing at (with separately tunable angles for straightline, low speed cornering, high speed cornering and braking on the Aeromotions R2.TWO wing) is something that racers love, because it lets you dial in the wing settings to suit a particular track.

I agree with you on the potential for placebo effect btw. ... I will try to find a link you blokes would maybe like that shows how to go about testing something like this.

The Aeromotions Dynamic Wings are a proven quantity and there is already a lot of hard data to show how well they work. Likewise how to test aero changes is also already known and Aeromotions have already published detailed testing data.

As we wrote in a post earlier in this thread ...

"A number of teams running the Aeromotions Dynamic Wings have already publicly released info on their lap time improvements with the Aeromotions Dynamic Wing. Physics works exactly the same way in Australia as it does in the US, so the US results are just as relevant to Australia."

Aeromotions also did a back to back test at Thunderhill Raceway (screenshot from the test above). As it says on our website, lap times at the back to back test were ...

Without Aeromotions Wing: 2 minutes 10.1 seconds

With Aeromotions Static Wing: 2 minutes 9.2 seconds

With Aeromotions Dynamic Wing: 2 Minutes 8.4 seconds

With Aeromotions Dynamic Wing With Centre Fence: 2 minutes 7.7 seconds.

So at the Thunderhill test, adding an Aeromotions Static Wing shaved 0.9 second off the lap time without an Aeromotions Wing.

Lap times with the Aeromotions Dynamic Wing With Centre Fence were 1.5 seconds a lap faster than with the Aeromotions Static Wing, and 2.4 seconds faster than without an Aeromotions wing.

There is data from the back to back testing at Thunderhill Raceway complete with Traqmate Data Acquisition data, a summary of the data and info about the car, driver and testing methodology, and a detailed turn by turn data analysis, which includes plots turn by turn of the lateral G-force, acceleration and braking G-force, velocity, and time difference. See the link below for more info and links to the full test data.

In addition there are a number of testimonials from drivers detailing the lap time improvements they have experienced with the Aeromotions Dynamic Wing at the link below, including comments about it on:

- the Cannonball R35 GT-R (winner of One Lap Of America)

- the Crawford Subaru WRX STi

- the AMS/NOS Energy Drink EVO X

- the Budez R35 GT-R, and

- Mark Berry's Advan / Hi Octane Racing R34 GT-R.

The fact that Duncan's results reinforce the results achieved by other teams is not surprising at all.

The data from the Thunderhill test and the feedback from teams using the Aeromotions Dynamic Wings is here ...

http://www.tunersgroup.com/Products/aeromotions.html

There is also a thread here where all the "does it work ?" questions were asked and answered back in October & November last year ...

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/Ad...er-t293942.html

If you generate more downforce then of course a car is going to feel more planted - that is simple physics.

The Aeromotions Wings use a cutting edge high efficiency, low drag wing profile that was developed from military research into wing profiles used on unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV's). The same wing profile is used on the R2 Static Wing and the R2 Dynamic Wing, so even if you run the Aeromotions R2 Static Wing, you still get the benefit of that high efficiency, low drag wing profile, and the static version can be upgraded later to dynamic operation.

Add into that the fact that having dynamic control of the angle of attack on the dynamic versions of the Aeromotions wings allows you to run a steeper angle of attack in corners for maximum downforce and grip, AND a flatter angle of attack on the straights (producing less drag on the straights than if the wing was in the high downforce position on the straights), and it's easy to see that the reason the Aeromotions Dynamic Wings work is engineering and physics.

Aero plays a much greater role in laptimes than many people realise, which is part of the reason why so many of the World Time Attack Challenge cars are doing aero development in the lead up to Superlap in May.

The key is the laptime, which speaks for itself and clearly demonstrates the effectiveness of the Aeromotions Dynamic Wings.

The stopwatch doesn't lie.

- The Tuners Group

Edited April 7, 2010 by TheTunersGroup

[Martin Donnon]

Just a thought.....maybe LSX-438 is a terminator and he is the computer driving the car? Scary!

[TheTunersGroup]

Just a thought.....maybe LSX-438 is a terminator and he is the computer driving the car? Scary!

LOL Martin. Did you see the molten lead segment on Mythbusters too ?

- Adam

[fatz]

how much?

[fatz]

just found it on the web page

chekc that!

[handbrake]

R35 Computers change gears for you, they brake for you, they put down the power for you. That is a biggest portion of what makes up a good lap & makes it available for even the inept. To get it is a commitment to speed (you) and knowing when to toggle the computers on and off (you pressing the accelerator and brake).

Its not real driving, fast no question about it, but not real

Duncan is very polite.

the whole computer drives your car thing is such a cliche

the fun factor isn't any less just because you can go faster, and extracting the last 1/10 out of the car isn't going to be any easier as already stated

[hrd-hr30]

Duncan is very polite.

the whole computer drives your car thing is such a cliche

the fun factor isn't any less just because you can go faster, and extracting the last 1/10 out of the car isn't going to be any easier as already stated

hang on, if all these driving aids and electronic systems don't help the car go fast, why are they there?

you can't have all this artificial help and still claim its just as hard to drive as a car without them.

[handbrake]

I didnt state that the car was just as hard to drive as others for a certain lap time. I am a rank amateur and yes I am getting quick times because of the car - so you are correct on that count. once you raise the bar however, as this car allows you to do, it still takes skill to get the quickest times from this car does it not? by using the 'computer driving your car' philosophy you are assuming a poor driver could achieve similar times in the car compared to a pro.

[hrd-hr30]

well I must have misunderstood the "extracting the last 1/10 out of the car isn't going to be any easier" remark.

sure a better driver will still be faster in an R35, but not by nearly as much as if it were a more traditional car without all the electrickery.