Aeromotions Dynamic Wing

[LSX-438]

- is the R35 an extremely capable car? yes.

- will it be quick right out of the box vs most other stocker cars? yes.

- is it a challenge to get the most out of this (or any other car) when car & driver reach their respective limits? - yes

what's the disagreement about?

[djr81]

I was talking to a driver from the vintage car club. He said hydraulic brakes were for pussies.

Going massively off topic and talking about the wing I have a few assumptions/questions:

I assume the general characteristic of the R35 is midcorner understeer. That being the case how does an increase in rear downforce help anything? The simple answer would be to see a trace of the lateral gees versus distance (or time) to check the shape of the graph or see it plotted versus steering input for a given speed range.

Anyway the product looks good. I just wonder how people pick up seconds a lap when I bust my arse to pick up a tenth. It usually means the driver is having more of an influence than the engineering. Typically less experience drivers go better in cars that understeer than with the sort of neutral/edgy set up you need to squeeze the last few tenths out of a lap time.

Edited April 12, 2010 by djr81

[Beer Baron]

yes an R35 will make an average driver look decent and a decent drive look awesome. but you still need to know how to steer the thing if you want to be quicker than the other bloke who has an R35 too... it will carry you up to a point and once you get there if you want to go any faster you need some level of car control to do it. I recall marek was pretty quick driving his evo back in supersprints over the last few years too so it's not like he walked into an R35 and went from back of the grid to the front. he's been at it for a few years too learning the tracks in nsw so again some effort has been expended to run the times he does. I don't know much about duncans background but I'm sure it's a similar story.

sure the r35 has lots of fancy gadgets that help you get good lap times. the biggest ones being a 500hp V6 with very progressive power curve and good midrange and the 6 speed box with fairly good ratios and super fast 'full power' shifting.

by all means recognise the fact that it's a very capable car. but it still takes a good driver to drive it at it's potential. it takes a good driver to drive a mitsubishi mirage to it's potential or any car for that matter. but why is it when blokes cut say a 1:18 out of a mirage or something peolpe say 'wow, well done for getting a time like that out of such a slow car'. but when people drive a fast car fast all you ever hear is 'wow, that car must have a lot of power' or 'what a great car'. nothing ever said about the driver.

in my experience it's harder to drive a fast car flat out than it is to drive a slow car to it's (much lower) potential. much harder.

anyway, I don't disagree that computers and technology play a part in the R35 times. I mean if it didn't have that stuff and was just a 1700kg car with 500hp and a regular 6 speed manual then of course it wouldn't be as fast. it's that technology which allows it to lap much faster than the raw numbers suggest it can.

[LSX-438]

I was talking to a driver from the vintage car club. He said hydraulic brakes were for pussies.

Going massively off topic and talking about the wing I have a few assumptions/questions:

I assume the general characteristic of the R35 is midcorner understeer. That being the case how does an increase in rear downforce help anything? The simple answer would be to see a trace of the lateral gees versus distance (or time) to check the shape of the graph or see it plotted versus steering input for a given speed range.

Anyway the product looks good. I just wonder how people pick up seconds a lap when I bust my arse to pick up a tenth. It usually means the driver is having more of an influence than the engineering. Typically less experience drivers go better in cars that understeer than with the sort of neutral/edgy set up you need to squeeze the last few tenths out of a lap time.

I do have some driftbox data which compares AM wing with the stocker wing @ Wakefield. I will try and dig it out. Yes we do see understeer in this car, however it is somewhat dialed out by the 290 slicks we run up front. Very different to stocker rubber. Remember these cars have a tune too and are running about 350awkw, turn the traction control off (which we do) and you do have to balance the throttle (a bit) to avoid oversteer. I have found the wing neutralises (turn exit) oversteer and restores confidence. I guess due to rear downforce. I think that has a flow-on effect with driver confidence, so yes it allows us mere mortals to drive the car a bit harder than perhaps we might otherwise. So i dont think the wing necessarily was good for a second around wakefield but it helped instill the confidence for me to push harder and get the time. Same outcome i suppose.

[LSX-438]

yes an R35 will make an average driver look decent and a decent drive look awesome. but you still need to know how to steer the thing if you want to be quicker than the other bloke who has an R35 too... it will carry you up to a point and once you get there if you want to go any faster you need some level of car control to do it. I recall marek was pretty quick driving his evo back in supersprints over the last few years too so it's not like he walked into an R35 and went from back of the grid to the front. he's been at it for a few years too learning the tracks in nsw so again some effort has been expended to run the times he does. I don't know much about duncans background but I'm sure it's a similar story.

sure the r35 has lots of fancy gadgets that help you get good lap times. the biggest ones being a 500hp V6 with very progressive power curve and good midrange and the 6 speed box with fairly good ratios and super fast 'full power' shifting.

by all means recognise the fact that it's a very capable car. but it still takes a good driver to drive it at it's potential. it takes a good driver to drive a mitsubishi mirage to it's potential or any car for that matter. but why is it when blokes cut say a 1:18 out of a mirage or something peolpe say 'wow, well done for getting a time like that out of such a slow car'. but when people drive a fast car fast all you ever hear is 'wow, that car must have a lot of power' or 'what a great car'. nothing ever said about the driver.

in my experience it's harder to drive a fast car flat out than it is to drive a slow car to it's (much lower) potential. much harder.

anyway, I don't disagree that computers and technology play a part in the R35 times. I mean if it didn't have that stuff and was just a 1700kg car with 500hp and a regular 6 speed manual then of course it wouldn't be as fast. it's that technology which allows it to lap much faster than the raw numbers suggest it can.

Ask Marek what is the harder car to drive, evo or r35.

- he will tell you the r35 without question

Just quietly i dont think any of the evo boys believe it.

Nor do most people reading this.

i am NOT saying which car will go quicker putting around at 8/10ths, that is not the question and is practically irrelevant

Edited April 12, 2010 by LSX-438

[Neil]

I won't buy into all this electronic discusions,,,what I will say is the boys ARE driving these 2 cars bloody quickly. To be doing 62's and 63's is an outstanding job. Looks like I need to find 3 bloody seconds just to get in the top three,,,how the hell I'm going to do that I don't know. May the 2nd will sort that out.

Anything under a 66 around Wakie is very very fast,,,please put your hand up if you have.

Congrats fella's nice driving.

Neil.

[thrtytwo]

out of curiosity what does the average v8 superbarge do around there ?

dw found this lap records which sheds some light

[Beer Baron]

Ask Marek what is the harder car to drive, evo or r35.

- he will tell you the r35 without question

Just quietly i dont think any of the evo boys believe it.

Nor do most people reading this.

i am NOT saying which car will go quicker putting around at 8/10ths, that is not the question and is practically irrelevant

I don't doubt it. the evo is a much lighter car, very forgiving chassis, has much more front drive bias too and generally have less power.

anyway we are way off topic now so I'll leave it at that.

I wonder how many of the experts on how easy R35s are to drive have even driven one? better yet I wonder how many have driven one in anger on the track. and if they have I'd love to hear what their lap times are in a 35 at any given circuit.

[GTR59]

hi Dunc,

with mounting the wing on CF boot lid - did you have to reinforce the boot lid? If so how? Any Pics?

I have heard from Forged that AM wing can crack or break carbon fiber boot lids if not reinforced.

2nd have you considered or tried Hoosiers?

(I'm running 295/19 and 315/19 - done 2 track days and still reasonable rubber remaining)

Bill

[handbrake]

Hi Bill, welcome!

[handbrake]

A few us will be getting this wing, potentially mounting on a carbon bootlids also, so I am also very interested in seeing what reinforcing Dunc or Martin have done if any. I seem to recall Martin has some reinforcement with his stock bootlid?.

[LSX-438]

hi Dunc,

with mounting the wing on CF boot lid - did you have to reinforce the boot lid? If so how? Any Pics?

I have heard from Forged that AM wing can crack or break carbon fiber boot lids if not reinforced.

2nd have you considered or tried Hoosiers?

(I'm running 295/19 and 315/19 - done 2 track days and still reasonable rubber remaining)

Bill

I initially wanted to put in some bracing for the wing, however given the AM mounts didnt come with enough bolt thread there was not enough meat to clear bracing as well. So i was forced to go without. The pictures of bracing we have seen on the net do not look like much chop to me either. I would like to beef it up, so if anyone has ideas i would like to hear it. FWIW i have had nil issues at eastern creek nor wakefield park thus far.

I think Martin had an issue with bracing his because it was bolted to the underside ribs (on the stocker metal boot) and those ribs are not very thick. I think he put some spacer/washers in to sure up the mount, but Martin will have to confirm. With my carbon boot (i think it's fibreglass with a carbon layer on top actually) the underside ribs are not as rigid as the stocker metal ones, and it just compresses when you bolt it up. So I didnt have the same issue as Martin. Does that make sense? Seems to be working, but i would like a stronger solution.

The hoosiers look interesting but given i have been lucky in getting a lot of the porsche cup slicks (which have proven pretty quick) at good prices i havent bothered looking further, even 2nd hand they seem to work very well. It really helps the budget as we go through a lot of rubber!

[hrd-hr30]

I don't doubt it. the evo is a much lighter car, very forgiving chassis, has much more front drive bias too and generally have less power.

anyway we are way off topic now so I'll leave it at that.

I wonder how many of the experts on how easy R35s are to drive have even driven one? better yet I wonder how many have driven one in anger on the track. and if they have I'd love to hear what their lap times are in a 35 at any given circuit.

so unless you've tracked an R35 you wouldn't know if AWD makes life any easier?

have NISSAN gone backwards with their AWD technology since the R32 GTR? Coz that certainly made it a bit easier to drive. I have no problem in saying mine did half the work from apex out. Sure it still had to be driven but it made it alot easier, and still rocketed forward even if you did get a touch too sideways. Certainly easier to squeeze every last little bit out of it when things are helping with the all important corner exits.

but I guess the difficulty of driving one is all relative to what you've driven before. If it was EVOs, then GTRs must seem like a real handful!

GTRs have always been the driver's AWD though. Certainly always have taken more driving than EVOs and the like.

[TheTunersGroup]

hi Dunc,

with mounting the wing on CF boot lid - did you have to reinforce the boot lid? If so how? Any Pics?

I have heard ... that AM wing can crack or break carbon fiber boot lids if not reinforced.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Aeromotions designed a reinforcement system for carbon bootlids.

Aeromotions also designed a reinforcement system for factory bootlids.

There is info about both those reinforcement systems on this page on our website ...

http://www.tunersgroup.com/Aeromotions_mounting.html

- Adam

[Beer Baron]

so unless you've tracked an R35 you wouldn't know if AWD makes life any easier?

have NISSAN gone backwards with their AWD technology since the R32 GTR? Coz that certainly made it a bit easier to drive. I have no problem in saying mine did half the work from apex out. Sure it still had to be driven but it made it alot easier, and still rocketed forward even if you did get a touch too sideways. Certainly easier to squeeze every last little bit out of it when things are helping with the all important corner exits.

but I guess the difficulty of driving one is all relative to what you've driven before. If it was EVOs, then GTRs must seem like a real handful!

GTRs have always been the driver's AWD though. Certainly always have taken more driving than EVOs and the like.

harry you smart arse! I didn't say AWD doesn't make it easier to drive. just that a whole bunch of people keep spouting out how you can drive an R35 at 10/10ths with one hand on your mobile phone, with the other applying your lipstick while you sip a coke from the cupholder and watch a DVD on the MFD. Driving ANY car at 10/10ths requires some skill and effort. Like you say some are easier than others and I don't dispute a car with AWD and paddleshift box is going to be a lot less of a handful in hairy moments than a RWD car with an H pattern box. no question. but to discount the driver as just a passenger in a technology packed, auto-piloted wunderbus is a taking things a bit far.

don't get me wrong. the R35 GTR is a very forgiving car on track and will make a merely 'competent' driver feel like he's a gun with nice progressive power, smooth DSG shifts, big easy to hold power slides etc. They are very sure footed, have great brakes, stunning acceleration and so the list goes on. you still have to brake when you want to slow down, accelerate when you want to speed up and turn the wheel when you want the thing to change direction and pluck another gear when appropriate.

btw, my comment wasn't directed at you and I'm not saying that wass your opinion, I'm just explaining my point.

oh, and for sure the 35 AWD is a step up from the RB powered GTRs. it's still much more RWD biased though than EVOs or WRX like you point out. and I agree I reckon it's tougher getting 100% out of a GTR than an EVO. Personally I'm happy to get 80% out of either of them...

[Martin Donnon]

Your comments are spot on for a stock power R35 Beer Baron....

Push the car another 200hp or so and it all changes

(Yes I have driven one)

[Roy]

Wow, an R35 is harder to drive then an EVO. Man thats like saying its harder to beat up an 8 year old boy then it is a 5 year old girl. Be a man, rip out all that FWD crap out, remove the electronic fish finder in and under the dash, unless you plan on putting it in the drink at the end of the straight at PI...throw a 3rd pedal in the thing then lets see how much fun a 600hp rwd barge will be.

Cant wait to see the drift R35 being built up. I am sure with the Aeromotion wing on it will be just as fast (did you see what i just did? on topic post with that clever reference to the thing wing off an F22 )

At the end of the day the times are very impressive. Machine & driver are on the money to be doing those times. Will one of you Wakefield gurus pop down to Winton and give them a run with slicks. I really have no idea how much slicks help. I know of a 250rwkws E36 that is well sorted and with weight out of it doing 1:29s or close to around Winton.

I suspect the slicks really help exploit the electrics package of the car

[TheTunersGroup]

throw a 3rd pedal in the thing then lets see how much fun a 600hp rwd barge will be.

Like this ? ...

Video here (great blog post Kris) ...

http://www.gtrblog.com/2010/04/13/nomuken-...-r-first-video/

- The Tuners Group

Edited April 14, 2010 by TheTunersGroup

[Martin Donnon]

If anyone is interested in finding the hardest car to drive around the circuit then try a 1959 800cc side valve Morris Minor. No brakes, no suspenion, and definitely no power or electronics. A real mans car

Edited April 14, 2010 by Martin Donnon

[fatz]

i would like to trial a wind on my r31

would make it heaps easier to push in and out of the shed!