Mitsubishi Electric Car Just Landed.

[Kujotk]

I was just going through the Mitsubishi website and saw that the electric car is now about to be available, a couple of things are missleading about the launch of the vehicle.

they say this...

"Zero emissions

Producing zero emissions, the i MiEV runs on electric power using a47kW motor and lithium-ion batteries. The i MiEV emits absolutely noCO2 while operating. Even with the CO2 emitted while creating theelectricity needed to charge the car, the total is only one-third ofthe emissions generated by a petrol-driven car."

They go on about how its a zero emitions car everywhere in their media releases and the only time they say the truth that it does create carbon emissions is less than two sentences, even then they try to give the vibe it doesn't create carbon emissions. It doesn't matter if the car itself is creating the emissions or not, its the fuel that creates the emissions, if you want to be picky about it like mitsubishi is, then you could argue a truck doesn't create carbon emissions, its the burning of the diesel that does, so in effect anything can be a "zero emissions" vehicle. With the electric car in Australia coal is burned at an alarming rate to produce the electricity, Mitsubishi claims 1/3 the emissions is created to power their electric car than a petrol driven car, has anybody asked what car they are comparing it to? For all we know they could be comparing it to an SRT10 Dodge Viper.

The car is 44kw, or about 35-40kw at the wheels, such little power compared to a VW golf that you would expect it to be 1/3 the carbon emissions anyway, its like putting a 300cc engine in a smart car and saying its the bees knees.

I just think its a rort, and some internet releases from drive.com ect... are saying the car will come to Aust on road costs from $40 000!!!

Will people be smart enough to realise its a shit product being sold deceptively like some people realised that there are allot of cars that are more friendly to the environment like a 1.6 litre VW golf petrol that produces less C02 emissions than the toyota prius hybrid???

The electric car will be great for the environment if electricity comes from a means of not throwing massive amounts of C02 into the air, untill then the electric car is a fail.

PS: i'm not against the electric car, its much easier for an electric car to go faster than a petrol one anyway, especially since the torque delivery of an electric car is always instant where as combustion engines take some time and higher revs to reach full tourque.

ENd rant (for now)

[JAS-25T]

I've been on the modern turbo diesel bandwagon for years now (owning one for 2yrs already) and I can say from an experienced (and maybe biased) point of view that the emmisions from the turbo diesels are getting better, along with the superb fuel economy and power.

Thats not even taking into fact that the initial cost of purchase is rediculous for these electric and hybrid cars.

Look at the most economical car on the market at the moment...the ford fiesta econetic...turbo diesel and at a cost of about 40% of the toyota prius (an industry benchmark)

More to the point, as you say, they are still burning fossil fuels to generate the electricity and are still using unsustainable fuels.

Untill that changes, they are no better, and if anything worse, with all of their inefficiencies during this infancy period of their use in the mass market.

Unfortunately, most people would take the marketing as it is and join in on the hype, that is electric vehicles. Unlike the type that would come to these forums that would generally do some research prior to buying and also have some technical knowledge.

[FLN75S]

I've been on the modern turbo diesel bandwagon for years now (owning one for 2yrs already) and I can say from an experienced (and maybe biased) point of view that the emmisions from the turbo diesels are getting better, along with the superb fuel economy and power.

Thats not even taking into fact that the initial cost of purchase is rediculous for these electric and hybrid cars.

Look at the most economical car on the market at the moment......turbo diesel and at a cost of about 40% of the toyota prius (an industry benchmark)

More to the point, as you say, they are still burning fossil fuels to generate the electricity and are still using unsustainable fuels.

Untill that changes, they are no better, and if anything worse, with all of their inefficiencies during this infancy period of their use in the mass market.

Unfortunately, most people would take the marketing as it is and join in on the hype, that is electric vehicles. Unlike the type that would come to these forums that would generally do some research prior to buying and also have some technical knowledge.

+1 i couldnt agree more when it comes to being on the Diesel bandwagon my girlfriend and i purchased an 09 Focus Turbo diesel and it is by far the best FWD car i have driven in a long time in regards to power and torque delivery and then you can go and do as good as 5.7litres per hundred km's. Plus its half the price of something lilke a prius and at least it goes somewhere when you put the foot down.

Will be interesting to see how people take to this full electric car i have nothing against the idea but im not a fan of the idea.

[JAS-25T]

Theoretically, the torque would be instant....so comparatively, in that sense, it should move.

Problem still is, storage of that power i.e. distance per charge (inefficient and large batteries) and the amount of power.

Oh and again they are still burning fossil fuels back at the energy plant.

[Kujotk]

Jas25t i'm with you, although I haven't bought a diesel in OZ (other than a transit van) because it still is alittle harder to get fuel, petrol is still pretty cheap in OZ.

But when i was in europe it was a different story, diesel is by far the better choice for driving through the alps, the price was much cheaper, less tax, fuel goes further ect...

In over there I had use of an alfa brerra diesel, a seat hatch diesel of some sort (very similar to a golf), a seat minivan diesel and a honda civic (not a type R but that new shape of civic like the type R over here in OZ) in Italy and austria. Similar sized engines similar weights, the diesels absolutely slaughtered the petrol civic up the mountains, even the seat minivan ran rings around it going up steep hills.

Only downside is desel cars tend to cost more than their small petrol engined equavalents

[JAS-25T]

We digress, but since it's your topic those are all personal reasons, which I somewhat disagree with, from personal experience.

Diesel isn't hard to get. I've only ever been to two stations in two years that haven't had it. And infact, one had it but it was a hi-flow pump for trucks, so I couldn't use it. I've done over 65,000km in those 2yrs so I've seen my fair share of stations.

Also the price of diesel is much more stable. Apart from the crazy, insane prices we had in mid to late 2008, I've never paid more or less than $1.2X per litre.

The initial cost is also something that comes down to a personal reason i.e. usage. If you do many km's as I do, you quickly recoupe the costs in the efficency, not to mention that the cost is usually reflected in the sale prices, when the car would be on-sold. The few thousand more that you bought it for, over a petrol equivalent, would also be a few thousand-ish more when you sell it.

[FLN75S]

Yeh lately i have found diesel prices at the pump stay pretty consistent even through the week, a lot of the time its cheaper than the optimax i put in the 34.

I cant say i have ever had a problem getting it but i don't do the amount of km's you do.

Like you said its either CO2 out the exhaust or at the power plant making the electricity so i dont see how they can really keep going on about it being zero emmisions.

[Kujotk]

i don't mean there arn't any pumps of diesel at certain petrol stations, but most stations only have one double sided diesel bowser that also doubles as a normal unleaded pump aswell, and the LPG pumps tend to be next to the diesel ones these days, so forget it if your in a hurry and there is a truck infront of you, i know this because of the transit, if you go to a petrol station you don't usually go to then you don't have the luxury of knowing which bower is the diesel one, if you don't see the sign saying diesel in the first couple of seconds of going into a station and some wank is right up your ass.... well you know how it is, the guy behind you thinking hes more important and taking an extra second or 2 to find the right bowser is the end of the world apparently...

[Kujotk]

also if the car costs about $3000 extra to get it in diesel as opposed to petrol (depending on what make and model it is and assuming petrol and diesel prices as of todays average ect. ) the average purchaser will break even after about 60,000km, then after that you actually start saving. But then you also have to take into account that a petrol engine on 200 000km would be in a much much worse state than a diesel at the same milage, that is when the diesels come into a league of their own when it outlives its petrol brother by 400 000km and the difference in how efficient the engine works at the same high milage as the petrol.

but anyway this is off topic

back to main topic: electric cars @ this point of time in Australia is a massive fail (for the time being)

[GreenR32GTR]

well you can forget about the electric vs diesel debate.

Kim Carr and John Brumby are shortly (next few days - was cancelled on Monday due to Fed health debate) to announce that E85 is the 'way of the future' for the local auto manufacturing sector, which means that incentives (subsidies) will be directed towards fostering this industry, and away from alternative technologies, such as electric.

Whilst I personally think this is a dumb idea (I prefer electric as a long-term strategic direction, in fact I'd prefer to see us bow out of a race we are not competitive in - as has New Zealand) - it is all about industry (read: jobs) protection.

That's why the buffoons mentioned above will be holding a joint press love-in in conjunction with Holden, to announce that all Holdens from 2011 onwards will be produced with E85-compatible engines.

I hear differing views on whether you can retro-fit existing PULP engines to E85. It will also create massive headaches for service stations, who need to overhaul their infrastructure.

Not that this all matters - fact is, from next year on E85 will become an ever-present part of the menu, whether we like it or not.

[GreenR32GTR]

E85 = Ethanol

[mad082]

i've never been a fan of electric cars, at least not in australia. australia is too large a country for electric cars to work well. i live approx 200kms from brissy, and the range of most electric cars is around the 300km mark, which means i can't even go to a trade show in brissy without having to stay overnight where as in a petrol or diesel car i can get there and back on under half a tank

[GreenR32GTR]

i've never been a fan of electric cars, at least not in australia. australia is too large a country for electric cars to work well. i live approx 200kms from brissy, and the range of most electric cars is around the 300km mark, which means i can't even go to a trade show in brissy without having to stay overnight where as in a petrol or diesel car i can get there and back on under half a tank

yeah, but bear in mind you seem to be pre-supposing that technology will not advance. i gather you wrote your post from a PC? in which case, can you imagine what the first users of computers would have said? 'gee, I find this piece of equipment, which takes up an entire lounge room, quite lethargic"....'these vacuum tubes and bright lights are giving me a headache'.....'these punch cards are so draconian, I can't wait till they bring out the 11" floppy....because then I'll have two of em'..etc etc

Electric cars in their current guise are highly impractical for many users, but as infrastructure improves (based on market uptake and profit motive), batteries become more efficient, etc - you will find that much of that changes.

Still, this argument can be applied to a range of the suggested 'next gen' fuel sources - hydrogen (lol), ethanol, electric, etc etc

[Marcus89]

Electric vehicles are not viable until our power is completely or predominantly sourced from renewable resources i.e. wind, solar, hydro.

Ethanol can be used and does produce fewer emissions but how big an area is required for all the crops to make then ethanol? What about food production if you think driving somewhere is more important than eating then there would be something wrong with you.

Hydrogen powered vehicles would be the best option in my opinion unless, as stated, electricity can originally be sourced from clean power sources for electric vehicles.

[BASHO]

i-Miev (what a stupid name) x 2 should have called it cheesymite would have made more sense

[funkymonkey]

i-Miev (what a stupid name) x 2 should have called it cheesymite would have made more sense

Mitsubishi Innovative Electric Vehicle, with a twist for Web 2.0 liking, Social Media Revolution embracing, Apple product toting hipsters.

[sneakey pete]

Electric cars could be useful for a lot of people in Australia (i know a lot of people will say "oh, but what if i wanted to go on holidays", however, if everyone took a good honest look at where they actually took their car, i think a very large portion would find that they'd never go more than 150km from home)

The main problem with internal combustion engines is that you really can't get them as effecient as a powerplant. So yes, they might burn a lot of coal, but they also put out a Gigawatt. Odds are they put out less CO2 per Watt than your modern turbo diesel does. And then, even if their tech doesn't improve, and we keep burning coal, they'll become viable for a portion of the country, because it's probably the best form of energy storage we have apart from oil, and oil doesn't seem like its going to stick around for that much longer.

[Kujotk]

E85 can be tuned to any car engine with fuel injection, i only say fuel injection because i have never seen a carby operated car be converted yet, ive seen most common makes and models be converted includeing r33, skylines.

Falcons, Commos, smarts, kia, hyundai. Brazil have been using 50/50 blend of fuel and ethanol for years and years now, and they never converted anything....

Alot of racecars and street/race cars are running on E85 fuel now as a cheaper alternative (in the long run) to race fuel, and actually its a cheaper better way than normal unleaded.

Diesel and E85 are really similar in terms of C02 levels, but E85 has the bonus of producing less Toxic fumes as opposed to diesel.

Sugar cane is the easiest way to make ethano, but really any plant bassed material can be used aslong as it has starch/sugars. EG: the waste of the grapes that arnt used to make wine are even better at producing ethanol than sugarcane, how many thousands of tonnes of fruit is thrown away commercially and privately when fruit goes off??? How much waste sugar cane is dumped into the river sytems of northern NSW and Queensland which ends up sufficating the coral reefs in the great barrier reef?

There are many pro's to ethanol, aswell as cons such as how do you regulate farmers from producing crop for ethanol instead of crop for food ect... but at the end of the day ethanol still produces unnecesary C02 gasses which if an electric car running on renewable energy like Solar, hydro, Nuclear, wind energy would not produce at all.

And i remember the gov talking about Nuclear power only last month. Also why does the Gov put all its hopes into one basket such as ethanol you may ask? Simple answer is there are more jobs created from cars using ethanol than there would be if cars were made to use electric

[GreenR32GTR]

And i remember the gov talking about Nuclear power only last month. Also why does the Gov put all its hopes into one basket such as ethanol you may ask? Simple answer is there are more jobs created from cars using ethanol than there would be if cars were made to use electric

spot on - has little (albeit something) to do with environmental benefits, and not necessarily the most economically expedient option either - simple fact is we have an ability to leverage existing sources of ethanol, and we have many vested interests who believe they will prosper more via a shift to ethanol than electric.

[GreenR32GTR]

Electric vehicles are not viable until our power is completely or predominantly sourced from renewable resources i.e. wind, solar, hydro.

Ethanol can be used and does produce fewer emissions but how big an area is required for all the crops to make then ethanol? What about food production if you think driving somewhere is more important than eating then there would be something wrong with you.

Hydrogen powered vehicles would be the best option in my opinion unless, as stated, electricity can originally be sourced from clean power sources for electric vehicles.

actually that's far from correct. by viable do you mean 'environmentally friendly'? or do you mean economically feasible? or politically expedient? the renewables you speak of are significantly more expensive in terms of $/mWh than is coal-fired electricity. As for EVER seeing our energy supplies completely sourced from renewables (presumably this excludes coal and nuclear - which generate over 90% of the worlds supply), you and I will be long dead before this happens. Why else did the Vic government renew the leases at Loy Yang for a further 35 years, meaning that they will likely be operating another 35 years.

And as far as hydrogen is concerned - it is a pipe dream right now. We all know how the story ends - no more oil (as exploration and supply costs would overtake consumer's willingness to pay the price, as alternatives come on stream). The question is - which way do countries / industries / manufacturers go in creating the next big thing. China clearly appears to be going electric (they don't suffer the view of some that every kWh must be wind-powered). America and Australia appear to be going E85.

Anyway, this is all largely speculation - we'll see in the next week or so if that announcement re E85 comes out. In the meantime, I'm buying CSR!