Mark Webber Attacks 'nanny State'

[frozenpod]

There are laws here to protect you...and other people from you. Yes...without them you couldn't go about your life safely.

There are plenty of laws to protect you and me, there has been for 50 years this is not what we are talking about we are talking about over regulation which is done for a number of reasons which also include altera mototives which quite often doesn't actually help the real issues of society and results removing the indiviuals choice and freedoms.

It sounds to me like you've never been in the shit and depended on these laws - but there are alot of people who do - and no you don't have to go looking for trouble, sometimes it just comes to you because there are alot of people out there who are out for themselves and will do what they can to get what they want.

Birds did the law and would more laws help in this situation. Some people will do or want to do the wrong thing regardless of laws in place to prevent them. Regardless of hoon laws, speeding laws, drink driving laws there have been people well over the limit driving well above the speed limit clearly the new hoons laws didn't stop them. Similarly there are plenty of people with knives that are using them in muggings attacks ect on other people even though there are laws in place that didn't stop them.

What we need is not more laws but individuals to take more responsibility.

Regulations exist because of liability. If something bad happens, someone has to take the blame. Average Joe isn't an expert in everything he does. Were he an expert on road safety, we could trust him to gauge the appropriate speed limit for himself. Since he isn't, we have professionals who do it for us and plaster the speed limit on a sign that you must abide by.

This is all about education, and in other parts of the world the people are educated/informed and the society grows/advances in a positive way were as but dumbing the people down and putting in place more regulations, people don't understand the concequences of there actions and they are more likely to do the wrong thing because they don't understand what could happen.

So why are we assuming I haven't visited other countries? These countries you speak of, where people are still allowed to make more choices than in Australia...please list some of them as I would like to compare them to Australia on both freedoms and the levels that the added freedoms impact upon - you must recognise that these freedoms have consequences beyond simply enjoying being able to choose what you do.

US and China

Edited April 6, 2010 by frozenpod

[Birds]

China is a BAD example for a model of individual freedoms. If they could access this website from their government leased land I'm sure they'd agree with me. Should they wish to send me an SMS complaining about it instead then they can enjoy their phone being blocked for a couple of days. If they want to stage a protest about it they'll need approval from the very people they're protesting against. Want to try road rules? 0% alcohol or two weeks in jail. If you think our government nannies us, how about one that just flat out denies the existence of certain documented events and sweeps under the penal rug anything that would oppose it? Still, people do choose to live there because regulations aren't the end of the world. Old Mark Webber was just having a whinge because he's clocked up a few too many demerit points.

The US base their freedoms on a 200+ year old doctrine which doesn't take into account technology or the changing trends of society, most notably that firearms now have more than a 15 metre range. Consequently your children can enjoy the privelege and possibility of going to school and not coming back because average Joe's responsibility can mean responsibility for another's life too. If you think Australia is overregulated, legislation in the US will have you sued at the drop of a button because someone doesn't want to take the blame for their own actions. What you people aren't realising is that people don't take responsibility for their own actions. Human nature that we never like to take blame and the first instinctual reaction is to look for someone else to blame. That's what happens when you follow suit with the US, the land of the lawsuit.

Regulations ARE about education and teaching, without the need to experience, because experience...whilst the best teacher...isn't always the nicest or the safest. Take for example losing a loved one in a car accident - it's quite a good lesson on how to drive safely, unfortunately at the expense of someone who means alot to you. Or how about hitting that child who ran out onto the road at night time Basti - it's clearly his fault he was out at night time because his parents gave him the freedom to do what he wants instead of putting in place rules that he can't go out at night time and wander the streets. If you had your rules, and he had his rules, the chances of the accident happening are far decreased. For that matter, basic human psychology: children don't learn from thinking for themselves, they learn because of positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, and punishment which all come about from obeying or breaking rules.

It's a moot point to say these people would break the law anyway no matter how strict. Some people never learn, that's true. So what do you propose instead...give them more freedoms to do worse? Atleast with less freedoms, prosecution is available and so is the chance to learn and not re-offend.

So, I'd still like this question answered: The way you make it sound, it's as if you're on 24 hour lockdown in your own home. Tell me where during the course of your daily life you struggle to move along because you run into a law that prevents you from doing so? Unless you make a living out of burglary I'm not seeing / buying it.

[funkymonkey]

somebody better be putting together some cliffnotes for this shit.

[alr33x]

well i got so far...

fronzenpod said " there....a few novels and finished with China"

birds followed up with "China...a few bibles and buying it"

rest of it was a blur as i scrolled down

[frozenpod]

IMO Birds you are a classic example of social engineering and you believe what you are lead to believe.

Regulations ARE about education and teaching, without the need to experience, because experience...whilst the best teacher...isn't always the nicest or the safest.

Yes they can be but in the case of hoons act and speeding they are far from it. Given the governement, police and media propergainder about speeding and hoons is a lie yes I used the word lie people are not being educated at all but brain washed.

Education is not just knowing the answer but understanding where it comes from and idealy the educated person can then apply the knowledge to another similar situation.

Evidence of lie look at the latest speed TV ad. "Speed being the number one killer on the road" it is actually the 17th highest cause of fatal accidents.

Similar for the hoons act the public were lead to believe there was a high threat to there safety from hoons and speeding drivers which quoting Peter D

"

Originally Posted by PeterD Would be interesting to know how many road deaths are specifically attributable to hoon defined actions. The last data I looked at showed you were more likely to be killed on the road by mum, dad and the kids than a hoon. Most road deaths occur at or below the speed limit and speed is No17 on the list of major causes of road fatalities."

Given what the public is being told either being incorect or manipulation of the truth to the point of being lied to how is this education?

How does this result in a more informed 'educated' person who will behave more responsible?

[frozenpod]

So, I'd still like this question answered: The way you make it sound, it's as if you're on 24 hour lockdown in your own home. Tell me where during the course of your daily life you struggle to move along because you run into a law that prevents you from doing so? Unless you make a living out of burglary I'm not seeing / buying it.

It effects everything in a small way which people don't notice unless you take a very big step back.

Some of the small things, extra red tape, increased cost of living, additional taxing, poorer public services such as roads hospitals as the governement has wasted funds elsewhere, police (lots of police are moving to the traffic units ie new Hoon Squad, we really need them elsewhere and have much bigger problems such as drugs, violence to deal with), the person takes less responsibility as more and more choices and responsibility is taken away from the person they take less responsibility of what they are still left with and when things go wrong 'shit happens' use there lack of responsiblity 'its not my problem, not my responsiblity' as a defence.

[Birds]

IMO frozenpod, you are a classic example of someone who's done a year or two of liberal arts, and comes out of uni preaching the idea that the people elected government is the enemy of the people because they express a degree of regulation over them. These people are usually Marxist (you can tell just by the language they use), and ignore the parts of a post they can't / don't want to answer - therefore I won't do you the dignity of replying to your post. I can see we are done with this one

[funkymonkey]

so I can has cliffnotes now?

[Birds]

Sure can.

[frozenpod]

IMO frozenpod, you are a classic example of someone who's done a year or two of liberal arts, and comes out of uni preaching the idea that the people elected government is the enemy of the people because they express a degree of regulation over them. These people are usually Marxist (you can tell just by the language they use), and ignore the parts of a post they can't / don't want to answer - therefore I won't do you the dignity of replying to your post. I can see we are done with this one

Liberal arts where on earth would you get an idea like that??

I am an Electrical Engineer and I don't preach or at least I typically don't but I believe that our current governement is not acting in our best interests both short and long term relating to traffic regulation.

Busy day at work but I was going to respond to your comments about China, USA I will do so now.

Yes I agree in some parts of the US is as you have described.

I have not spent a lot of time there but I can tell you from the two states I have been to they were vasty different so much that you would almost think you were in a different country.

I am lead to believe by collages and some family that live in the US that every state is different right across the country so whilst in some states your comments are correct others there regulations and society are very different.

[alr33x]

good thread. will read again in about 3 hours when i wana go to sleep

keep battling lads!

[bozodos]

yeah birds's posts are like that, i wonder if he's the same IRL lol

[Birds]

Ask the people who have met me

Don't know what you're complaining about boz, I thought you had an affinity for large things

[Basti]

haha IRL, you pass out from the tl;dr much much faster

[frozenpod]

China is a BAD example for a model of individual freedoms. If they could access this website from their government leased land I'm sure they'd agree with me. Should they wish to send me an SMS complaining about it instead then they can enjoy their phone being blocked for a couple of days. If they want to stage a protest about it they'll need approval from the very people they're protesting against. Want to try road rules? 0% alcohol or two weeks in jail. If you think our government nannies us, how about one that just flat out denies the existence of certain documented events and sweeps under the penal rug anything that would oppose it? Still, people do choose to live there because regulations aren't the end of the world.

Have you been to China recently things have changed a lot in recent years.

You can access this website and the internet censorship from what I saw is fairly minimal but still annoying. They do own there own apartments infact it is much easier for a regular Joe in China (at least most parts of China excluding a few areas which is stupidly expensive) to buy there own place than what it is in Australia.

A good example is my partners best friend in China, works a regular office job in a local mid sized company, had been working for two years when she purchased her own brand new apartment. Relative to her pay the apartment was about 1/4 the cost of here.

They generally work under a lot less stress and more people do the same work ie they are less efficient and work less hrs. Typically from what I have seen of my partners friends and family most people typically work from about 9 till 4:30 with a 2hr lunch break. Most people typically go home for lunch which is quite nice and in many ways healthy than grabing some crapy fast food whilst on the run which most people tend to do here.

Another good example of more people doing the one job is a bus driver, there is typically 2-3 people working on the bus, the driver and ticket collectors, there is also what appears to be random security on buses that move around from bus to bus. In Australia this is all done by one person the bus driver and this appears to be the same for most jobs. Many hands make light work approach combined with a lot more people to keep employed.

Chinese people appear to lead a slightly simple life but there is no doubt that they are happy relaxed and there is a sense of it is hard to explain as I don't completely understand but I would almost use the word freedom.

I cant comment on what would happen if someone sent an SMS complaining but I can assure you that no one or very few people would want to send a complaint. The people are happy and proud of who they are and there country. I cant comment about a protest but whilst I was there I did see a protest on the news and what was shown the police were standing by watching, after the cameras were turned off they could have all been locked up but what I saw on TV didn't indicate this as it was on for a number of days.

0% alcohol I have never seen a breath test done in China and whilst I am not familure with every law I can assure you that (most) people don't drink and drive because they are educated that it is not safe/responsible and they simply don't do it even though if this is a law it is not enforced.

As for there driving in general it is great even though it appears a little crazy at first people drive to the conditions have car control and do not drive in anger or with intent to do the wrong thing they just drive. This means even though they drive all over the road including foot path, change lanes ect at low speed around town they are doing all this at low speed suitable to the conditions which could be anywhere from 20 to 60km/hr. When conditions permit ie when they get out on the open road, FWY ect there is no hesiation to do very high speeds ie 180km/hr and maintain it.

There are very few crashes and from the entire time I have been in china I have only seen 1 crash that was a very small touch and no one was hurt just a cracked bumper.

As per above there is no anger in there driving they don't get upset react to other drivers which is a problem and getting much worse in recent years here.

[bozodos]

yeah but also don't forget the culture divide, not to mention the sheer amount of peasants there supporting the middle class.

Birds I like large women, but they don't make me go to sleep, quite the opposite actually

I can't wait until I join the club one day and meet you IRL

[xALmoN]

I heard, in china, on some freeways, there aren't any speed limits, but minimum speeds are enforced.

[alr33x]

after reading that im going to china...

aparments 1/4 of the price and i can have more people doing my job so i do less but still get paid well..

its like real life avatar!

[xALmoN]

i'm not sure if you'll get paid well though... unless you're in a foreign company and get posted there.

that said, stay out of the major cities, shanghai/beijing is the worst of the lot with stupidly priced properties and stuff.

[Birds]

Have you been to China recently things have changed a lot in recent years.

You can access this website and the internet censorship from what I saw is fairly minimal but still annoying. They do own there own apartments infact it is much easier for a regular Joe in China (at least most parts of China excluding a few areas which is stupidly expensive) to buy there own place than what it is in Australia.

A good example is my partners best friend in China, works a regular office job in a local mid sized company, had been working for two years when she purchased her own brand new apartment. Relative to her pay the apartment was about 1/4 the cost of here.

They generally work under a lot less stress and more people do the same work ie they are less efficient and work less hrs. Typically from what I have seen of my partners friends and family most people typically work from about 9 till 4:30 with a 2hr lunch break. Most people typically go home for lunch which is quite nice and in many ways healthy than grabing some crapy fast food whilst on the run which most people tend to do here.

Another good example of more people doing the one job is a bus driver, there is typically 2-3 people working on the bus, the driver and ticket collectors, there is also what appears to be random security on buses that move around from bus to bus. In Australia this is all done by one person the bus driver and this appears to be the same for most jobs. Many hands make light work approach combined with a lot more people to keep employed.

Chinese people appear to lead a slightly simple life but there is no doubt that they are happy relaxed and there is a sense of it is hard to explain as I don't completely understand but I would almost use the word freedom.

I cant comment on what would happen if someone sent an SMS complaining but I can assure you that no one or very few people would want to send a complaint. The people are happy and proud of who they are and there country. I cant comment about a protest but whilst I was there I did see a protest on the news and what was shown the police were standing by watching, after the cameras were turned off they could have all been locked up but what I saw on TV didn't indicate this as it was on for a number of days.

0% alcohol I have never seen a breath test done in China and whilst I am not familure with every law I can assure you that (most) people don't drink and drive because they are educated that it is not safe/responsible and they simply don't do it even though if this is a law it is not enforced.

As for there driving in general it is great even though it appears a little crazy at first people drive to the conditions have car control and do not drive in anger or with intent to do the wrong thing they just drive. This means even though they drive all over the road including foot path, change lanes ect at low speed around town they are doing all this at low speed suitable to the conditions which could be anywhere from 20 to 60km/hr. When conditions permit ie when they get out on the open road, FWY ect there is no hesiation to do very high speeds ie 180km/hr and maintain it.

There are very few crashes and from the entire time I have been in china I have only seen 1 crash that was a very small touch and no one was hurt just a cracked bumper.

As per above there is no anger in there driving they don't get upset react to other drivers which is a problem and getting much worse in recent years here.

There is a big difference between visiting China and living there as a local. I can do you one better, as what I say comes straight from the mouth of someone who regularly spends 2 months in China and 1 month in Australia on a constant cycle for business and residential purposes. This gives him a pretty good reality of comparative freedoms between the two nations. Not that it really matters to me because I think freedom is a subjective thing and grass can appear be greener from both sides. I just think it is absolutely ridiculous to declare Australia (or Victoria for that matter) an overregulated place robbing us of our freedoms. It's just a few whingers who've never seen real restriction and overregulation and don't realise how good we actually have it compared to the rest of the world. In this case some car enthusiasts, who for whatever reason dislike the fact they can't do a burnout on the street?

When I said this website I meant that as an exaggerated stab - there is ALOT of internet restriction where it matters, given the internet is supposed to be the uncensored medium of free information. Almost anything mainstream related to free media including Wikipedia and Facebook, Twitter, MySpace, Youtube etc.. Now I don't like the way Australia are following suit with regards to internet censorship - so if I agree with you anywhere it's that we are heading in that direction with some things but we are a far cry from there yet.

Your partner's friend owns her apartment, she doesn't own the land it's on though. This also creates the issue of depreciation for a house which is something we seldom see in Australia. Again, there are downsides to every freedom you can claim China has. Nothing is stopping you from working 9:00-4:30 here, in fact, you can work 10 hours a week if you like - go to university at the same time and get a government allowance to support you while you're doing it. Free money. I also don't think you've seen the poorer side of China where they absolutely dwarf us in terms of people living in poverty. I know of the relaxed state you refer to as freedom - this is somewhat superficial, as once you get to know locals and talk to them privately they hate the restrictions. The protest you saw on TV would have had a pre-arranged approval for you can't just pick up a picket and start marching like you can in Australia. In Australia we have a bus driver and a machine that collects the tickets. I can't remember the last time I head about people getting bashed, stabbed or shot on a bus but if China need the security guards on the buses that might be saying something. That said I have seen security guards on buses here before.

Oh most people don't drink and drive? I wonder why that is. It might have something to do with it being against the law and that is their education of it. Law is one of the simplest forms of education because you learn before you even know why. It is enforced too, as I know of someone who spent half of February in jail for it. So on the topic of freedoms on the road, 250cc motorbikes are the largest you can ride...as opposed to no restricitons here. In Australia we can have a beer or two and trust average Joe to be responsible enough not to exceed his limits. Still, we have alot of full licenced drink drivers caught over the limit - an example of average Joe not being the best judge of safe limits for himself. P platers, not so...given the zero tolerance on drinking it's not surprising we have very few P plate drink drivers.

Fark, I could go on for hours about how silly it is to compare China to Australia on freedoms. Pointless, pointless discussion we have here. Fortunately I'm the one who is content with how Australia is in terms of regulations and consequently I'm not bothered by it, beyond an argument about it. So how about we agree to disagree? Please sign here: __________________