Tuning Shops Locking Your Ecu's Tune

[NW007]

Anyone had any experience with this?

I took my car to a tuner with some issues. They told me they were unable to view the tune in the aftermarket ECU as it had been locked by the previous tuner.

The guy who had the car before me and had the ECU installed and tuned told me he wasn't informed it was going to be locked.

I asked the previous tuner for the password and they told me they wouldn't be releasing it. NO MATTER WHAT!

My only choice was to go back to the original tuner to have the tune adjusted, or to start a tune again from scratch which means extra time on a dyno. I personally question the ethics and anti-competitive behaviour of this. Plus if your car blows up from an unsafe tune noone but the tuning garage can access it..... This means they have totally removed themselves from all tuning accountability.

I figure that $150 to $200 per hour (sometimes more) entitles me to own the tune a tuner puts in my car as at this hourly rate I am paying for both their equipment and knowledge. Similar to a small business owning the intellectual property of customised software they've had a programmer build (at a similar hourly rate).

The original tuner has said that they inform all customers that they password protect their tuning. I question this..... If it is all out in the open lets get a register of tuners that lock and don't lock your ECUs on you.

ALSO IF YOU ARE HAVING YOUR CAR TUNED, MAKE SURE YOU CONFIRM WHETHER THEY ARE GOING TO LOCK YOUR ECU ON YOU.

ANYONE HAD ANY SIMILAR EXPERIENCES? OR KNOW OF SHOPS THAT LOCK ECUs?

[SECURITY]

i know that hitman in sydney locked my SAFC but he gave me the password when i asked for it.

this might also be something they do to cover themselves - if they leave the tune wide open then you play with it and your motor blows because of the tune - they are liable as there are some dodgy characters who will just revert to the original tune... and this tarnishes their reputation. but once you ring up and ask for the password they record when you did in their diary and from then on YOU are liable for the tune because on the xx/xx/xxxx @x o'clock you asked for the password to unlock the ecu. quite fair i think.

[R31Nismoid]

I see no issue with locking as they did all the work. What's to stop you taking it to your mate, and your mate copying their work for free?

Perfect logic behind it, even if i don't neccesarily agree with it

[NW007]

I see no issue with locking as they did all the work. What's to stop you taking it to your mate, and your mate copying their work for free?

Perfect logic behind it, even if i don't neccesarily agree with it

It's logical so long as ownership of the tune is firstly agreed upon.

If you have commissioned someone to build you something, especially when charged an hourly rate I think that the client has ownership unless otherwise specifically stated.

This means that the owner has the choice whether to share their tune with someone else or not.

Who would let a workshop tune their car if they knew they, or another workshop later on couldn't view it. Either to enhance or edit the tune (because of an additional mod to the car), or to check if the orginal tune was the reason their car blew up?

[SKYRYAN]

If you want the tune unlocked, you should be made to sign something saying the workshop tuner is no longer accountable for a popped engine.

[saliya]

Anyone had any experience with this?

I took my car to a tuner with some issues. They told me they were unable to view the tune in the aftermarket ECU as it had been locked by the previous tuner.

The guy who had the car before me and had the ECU installed and tuned told me he wasn't informed it was going to be locked.

I think that if you pay someone an hourly rate to do a job they are working for you and anything they create during that time belongs to you, not them.

You're already paying them for their time, you don't need to pay them again for what they have created.

But it depends on how the original agreement is made.

If you have an invoice "1 tune done on your car" (the object) - you've bought the tune, you own it. Show them the invoice and demand the password.

If you have an invoice showing "1 hour John tuning your car" (the tuning service) - then it's more debatable.

Something worth thinking about is that this password may actually be good for you: adjustable ECUs aren't permitted in many states.

A password that prevents you from adjusting it means your ECU is not adjustable; meaning that if your car gets EPA'd and found unroadworthy you're probably entitled to sic them on the shop.

The original tuner has said that they inform all customers that they password protect their tuning. I question this..... If it is all out in the open lets get a register of tuners that lock and don't lock your ECUs on you.

Easy to find out - call them up, ask the name of the answerer and ask for a tune.

If they make no mention of password-protection or locking before you've made a booking then they're not entitled to change the deal after the fact.

A register of shops that lock tunes and will/will not unlock (either openly or on the qt) is probably worth keeping.

If I get time I might knock something up outside SAU since this could be viewed as 'critical of an entity' and therefore verboten.

Finally; have you investigated other options e.g. something like FC-datalogit (of course, for your specific ECU).

Cheers,

Saliya

[R31Nismoid]

It's logical so long as ownership of the tune is firstly agreed upon.

If you have commissioned someone to build you something, especially when charged an hourly rate I think that the client has ownership unless otherwise specifically stated.

This means that the owner has the choice whether to share their tune with someone else or not.

Who would let a workshop tune their car if they knew they, or another workshop later on couldn't view it. Either to enhance or edit the tune (because of an additional mod to the car), or to check if the orginal tune was the reason their car blew up?

Yeah i don't disagree - but who knows what the full arrangement is.

Perhaps there might be some warranty period or other details here. Always hard to get the full story sometimes.

Like i said i don't really agree with locking the tune, but i can understand there are reasons for it depending on the situation.

[Raysboostin]

I see no issue with locking as they did all the work. What's to stop you taking it to your mate, and your mate copying their work for free?

Perfect logic behind it, even if i don't neccesarily agree with it

i dont see what gives them the right to do it with or without the permission of the owner?? the car and the ecu belong to someone else. from my point of view thats like taking ur car too a mechanic and then they tell u that u can have the car, but u cant have the keys back. if they charge u for the tuning of your car (usually a ridiculous sum of money) and the tune is not copyrighted material, they have no right to lock it.

[R31Nismoid]

There are two sides to the story dude, who knows what was/was not discussed and if the story about is all on the money.

Not saying the OP is lying, just that there might be more to the story is all - so just making a reserved comment as i've done as i don't know both sides.

[N I B]

I lock Racecars by agreement with the Owner but never Streetcars.

Restricted Race engines have taken very much time to develop tunes so I only tune them if the owner agrees I own the setup.

Normal Racecars don't bother me as much.

[Swiper the Fox]

Anyone had any experience with this?

I took my car to a tuner with some issues. They told me they were unable to view the tune in the aftermarket ECU as it had been locked by the previous tuner.

The guy who had the car before me and had the ECU installed and tuned told me he wasn't informed it was going to be locked.

I asked the previous tuner for the password and they told me they wouldn't be releasing it. NO MATTER WHAT!

My only choice was to go back to the original tuner to have the tune adjusted, or to start a tune again from scratch which means extra time on a dyno. I personally question the ethics and anti-competitive behaviour of this. Plus if your car blows up from an unsafe tune noone but the tuning garage can access it..... This means they have totally removed themselves from all tuning accountability.

I figure that $150 to $200 per hour (sometimes more) entitles me to own the tune a tuner puts in my car as at this hourly rate I am paying for both their equipment and knowledge. Similar to a small business owning the intellectual property of customised software they've had a programmer build (at a similar hourly rate).

The original tuner has said that they inform all customers that they password protect their tuning. I question this..... If it is all out in the open lets get a register of tuners that lock and don't lock your ECUs on you.

ALSO IF YOU ARE HAVING YOUR CAR TUNED, MAKE SURE YOU CONFIRM WHETHER THEY ARE GOING TO LOCK YOUR ECU ON YOU.

ANYONE HAD ANY SIMILAR EXPERIENCES? OR KNOW OF SHOPS THAT LOCK ECUs?

I know where the car was originally tuned and i can confirm that locking ecu's is common practice. Its bullsh1t...you are paying...hence you own it. I would also suggest that the customers are not informed of this...ACCC will act on this but need to have a written formal complaint submitted to do so.

[NW007]

There are two sides to the story dude, who knows what was/was not discussed and if the story about is all on the money.

Not saying the OP is lying, just that there might be more to the story is all - so just making a reserved comment as i've done as i don't know both sides.

Yes there are always two sides to every story.

Good point!

I'd love for the tuning shop to get on here, identify themselves, explain their side of the story and confirm that they lock tunes and don't release passwords. Perhaps if they did this and explained their honest reasons for doing this it might make more sense to us all.

Hmmm...... What do you think the chances of this happening are?

Wouldn't you prefer to know if the workshop is going to lock your tune or not before you pay them the cash?

[NW007]

A register of shops that lock tunes and will/will not unlock (either openly or on the qt) is probably worth keeping.

If I get time I might knock something up outside SAU since this could be viewed as 'critical of an entity' and therefore verboten.

I think this would be VERY useful. I know I'd reference it, and tell others to use it too!

[Swiper the Fox]

Yes there are always two sides to every story.

Good point!

I'd love for the tuning shop to get on here, identify themselves, explain their side of the story and confirm that they lock tunes and don't release passwords. Perhaps if they did this and explained their honest reasons for doing this it might make more sense to us all.

Hmmm...... What do you think the chances of this happening are?

Wouldn't you prefer to know if the workshop is going to lock your tune or not before you pay them the cash?

They feel it is their businesses intelectual property...not the customers...thats why they are locked.

[SECURITY]

They feel it is their businesses intelectual property...not the customers...thats why they are locked.

unless the tuner owns a patent for their intellectual property - then by law they can't lock ecu's based on their feeling. you cannot patent artistic creations, mathematical models, plans, schemes or other purely mental processes.

Edited April 15, 2010 by SECURITY

[Crans]

They way I see it you are contracting the work out there for you own the end result. You are not buying an end product, if you were there would be a flat charge for the desired end result.

Who here has had an engine blow up due to a bad tune and have actually had the work shop own up to it?

Probably no one therefor they can't play the warranty card.

Ring the ACCC and lodge a complaint.

[Kinks]

We produce PCBs with microcontrollers on them at work and we ALWAYS lock the micro to protect our intellectual property. Why should we do all the hard work and leave the door wide open for someone to plug on, download it all and start reproducing product themselves? A tune is the same, a programmable ECU in its raw state is mostly non-functional (it could grenade your engine). The tuner is what has made the product useful, you have bought a paperweight and he is selling you the labour that turns it into "a working ECU" for your car. Why shouldn't he protect his investment and his company's reputation by making sure nobody makes unauthorised changes to the tune?

I'm playing devils advocate here so you can hopefully understand the scenario from the other side of the fence. If I was a tuner I also wouldn't want people messing with the settings on their own and then going "XYZ tuned my car and it blew up" when the idiot has done global fuel or timing adjustments of his own accord.

Now, as far as a 1 on 1 situation where you go to a tuner and say "I want my car tuned" you should have an agreement on whether the tuner or the car owner owns the tune - ie whether it is locked or not. Likewise if you want to buy a car with an ECU in it you should ask for proof that the tune is unlocked, or proceed on the basis that it's locked. BUYER BEWARE applies in all cases.

Personally I think it's an owner's right to request a tune that they can own - unlocked and free for touchups by anyone. The tuner needs to proceed with this understanding and should they have any trade secrets they obviously won't put them in an unlocked tune because doing so would remove a point of difference that gives them an advantage in the marketplace. I don't see how anyone should have a problem with that.

[SECURITY]

but the fact is that if the consumer requests the password you MUST give it to them unless you have a patent on the intellectual property. you cant just deem something you produce as intellectual property without having a legal backing.

[saliya]

We produce PCBs with microcontrollers on them at work and we ALWAYS lock the micro to protect our intellectual property. Why should we do all the hard work and leave the door wide open for someone to

plug on, download it all and start reproducing product themselves? A tune is the same, a programmable ECU in its raw state is mostly non-functional (it could grenade your engine). The tuner is what has made the product useful, you have bought a paperweight and he is selling you the labour that turns it into "a working ECU" for your car. Why shouldn't he protect his investment and his company's reputation by making sure nobody makes unauthorised changes to the tune?

First, if your work thinks they can protect code like that they're dreaming - any capable, sufficiently-interested person _can_ get access to the code because they have access to the hardware.

Particularly if it's a generic microcontroller that is well-documented.

If someone wants to see the code they have bought, they're perfectly entitled to do that whether or not your work wants them to.

If they want to change the code, they're also entitled to do that (but if they change it, they're not entitled to hold your work responsible for the effects).

Selling a microcontroller programmed with your work's code would leave the seller open to prosecution under copyright law regardless of patent status.

Also, I'm not sure the situation is analogous - your work's not offering to setup someone's microcontroller for them; they are selling someone a programmed microcontroller.

I agree; the best thing is to discuss with your prospective tuner _before_ getting them to do the work. That way everybody knows what's going on.

But in the situation where it is not discussed, I think the expectation that the ECU be returned in the same state as it left (programmable-by-the-owner) is reasonable.

Locking a device without telling the customer that it is a condition of the sale is not acceptable.

Cheers,

SW

[beamstas]

I can definitly see both sides to this, even if it is not legal for a workshop to lock a tune, i can see why they would want to.

I believe that once you pay for a tune, it is yours. The workshop doesn't own the tune and you are "renting it", ie; using it and paying for it but don't actually own it. It is your tune.

Fair enough the workshop may have people that have been in the industry for years and know how to get the best out of a tune but for example, If i pay $x for head work, can the workshop lock the head of the engine on so no one can take it off and look at it? No. The same goes for tunes.. You pay for what you get, better tuners are more expensive, you are paying for their knowledge, not by them locking the tune off.

Also i don't believe tunes are very transferrable. All engines are different and a tune on one engine will not react the same as the same tune on another. There are too many variables to a tune to make it worthwhile transferring it to people you know.

It would be interesting to see where the liability is if the engine pops. Maybe if the workshop kept an exact copy of each tune on file, liability of tunes that have been fiddled with could be avoided.

My Opinion