Which Motorsport Rules Need To Be Followed?

[Duncan]

So this is pretty fresh given the issues Snowy has had at Targa....where do you stand?

Are rules good for motorsport, made to be broken, or just rubbish to be ignored?

[The Bogan]

Don't break any rule, but interpret it "creatively", to a point, but there's a problem straight away, what I think is OK others may not, stupid rules are needed to keep people honest.

BUT, if its a safety issue well that's another can of worms, sticking to the letter or interpreting may mean a compromise for the driver, crew and spectators safety, which is not really acceptable.

[DJRIFT]

Well i voted. wont say what for but i drift and at the moment theres no rules for any mods. id kinda like some but while its open slather ill take it advantage of it.

its funny that 50% of people thus far are saying its ok to brake a rule if its for reliability. but what if that means running a PPG gear set over the stock item just for reliability. you could look at it as performance but at the end of the day its reliability and could mean one team finishes and one doesn't thus making a car more reliable

so i dont agree with choice c) if the rules are you run a crappy factor diff that snaps diff mounts frequently than you do it to be LEGAL and win fair and square. early evos suffer this and a bloke i know gets through about half his events and the other half he smashes diffs.

[paulR32gtr]

Im halfway between 2 and 3 - mechanical replacement is pretty important for me - car is getting really old and reliability an issue.

Would never be fun taking a car home on a trailer due to ~20yo parts failing if a newer replacement was available that gave no performance enhancement.

Damo - I guess if the PPG gear set is the same ratio's as the standard box thats when I think it should be ok.

At the end of the day the event is about the times, and a car at a rules compliant performance level, laying down times achievable with OEM parts, but using aftermarket parts for reliability / repeatability should be ok in my book.

Its almost as if you need specific rules for each model based on its reliability problems.

[Roy]

You shouldnt break rules for reliability. Not on a multi day tarmac rally where reliability is probably a bigger performance advantage then speed. But if its a safety thing then understand you should be able to address something going astray at speed

But if i ran an RB25 out of Stagea in my GTR because i couldnt afford a rebuilt RB26, i wouldnt really expect anyone to complain. Just like if I had an R34 GTR and i ran 17" rims and semi slicks rather then 18s....if i am running a cheaper part on the car from an older or lesser model....then you shouldnt be penalised for hurting the performance of your car

My main objection to the Snowy thing is the guy that protested was i dont think he was ever in the hunt?? I only realy paid attention on the weekends results...so could understand if someone that was on the podium or had a sniff of a result ... its like if i ran and came bottom 50% and protested all the cars ahead of me that had small things wrong with them which have debtable performance benefits.

[Duncan]

Its almost as if you need specific rules for each model based on its reliability problems.

that is exactly the issue my production car club is trying to deal with - more than 50% of the cars on the grid are commodores so there is a very loud noise to allow things that deal with their issues like diff coolers. funny thing is they require standard cams but allowed cam gears because that really wakes up the LSx engines....don't think they considered how much that might suit a skyline

[N1GTR]

Reliability mods should always be allowed IMO aslong as they dont offer a performance benefit.

For example, dry sumps should be allowed on all race cars. Take Duncan racing a 20 year old car, back then the designers didnt have such high G force generating tyres to worry about compared to today, so by allowing him or anyone else to dry sump the motor doesnt mean its going to add a stack of KW's, its just going to cost him less motors per season, which means more money for attending interstate rounds (if he was in a national series), or more people could afford to enter those rounds as they didnt have to worry about having 2 motors being built constantly to stay in the race.

[R31Nismoid]

^ it means he can however go faster due to not having to cater for the "G" forces you could argue or lesser motor design (that was later revised kinda).

Lets face it, "creative" interpretation is a load of shit. It's either you can or you cannot.

It comes down to one persons integrity as to how far the "interpretation" argument goes for the most part.

It's a grey area, is always fudged and unfortunately sometimes you come off ok, othertimes it bites you in the ass.

[sav man]

I voted the "creative" option. But when you do that option, you are playing with fire, as diferent organisers have diferent interpritations and will only accept differnt interprotations.

the reliablity thing is far to open to abuse. running a gtr over it injector duty cycle will make the car unreaiable, so can i run bigger injecters. Letting early (light) evo's up their gearbox is unfair, they are light for a reason, because they are shit. But if you give them a relible drivetrain, you can easy get power out of them. Then you have Evo8 power, but -200kg. The reliabliuty rules need to be spelt out, so genuine relabilty things can be addressed (sump baffles, and oil coolers)

[Duncan]

One interesting example about AASA rally rules. While you can now change many things including injectors, you cannot change AFMs. Standard AFMs hit max voltage at around 300kw.

But you can change to a computer that does not require AFMs which gets around that rule.

[Duncan]

BTW I am really surprised no-one has voted for open slather. AASA and Irace racing in NSW are very popular and get similar number of competitors to the CAMS state round.

Their rules which apply to my car are:

"It has to be based on a japanese turbo import".

Yet it is very popular. Where are those guys and why race with AASA instead of the strict rules at CAMS?

[R31Nismoid]

Depends on the type of people are on this forum/area and what racing is being done

Most of them are not open slather and probably have reasons for it as posted so far.

Interesting thread this one will turn out to be

[sav man]

I though it how to follow the rules, not what they are.

The Tas Super Series is open slather, clases based off lap times, and the cars have to be road based (but no conversion to spaceframe)

and you can tune around AFM's, our car made 350rwkw with std AFM's. I think the main push for free injectors was to temp people onto E85

[Roy]

BTW I am really surprised no-one has voted for open slather. AASA and Irace racing in NSW are very popular and get similar number of competitors to the CAMS state round.

If I am racing then it means i am trying to win. If i am seriously trying to win i want there to be some sort of basis to the rules so that i have a chance. Doesnt have to be at every track and in all conditions. But a chance. Drive what you brung is what is fun about open track days and sprints and Superlap is about.

If i was going to the trouble of competing in a series....i want rules and woul dhope competitors generally follow them

[phunky_monkey]

I voted for the 'Creative' option. Porsche made racing history with cars that where very loosley based around the rules, such as the 935's. He who interprets the rules the best gains the biggest advantage, and I see no issue with that. All competetiors still theoretically have the same options available to them (based on resources of course), so I don;t think it's wrong to reward intelligence and ingenuity.

As for reliability modifications, unless it is previously agreed to or explicitly listed in the rule books (and cannot be creatively interpreted), then I don't think they should be automatically allowed. As Troy has said in racing reliability is a major factor, and thus can be a great advantage whether it affects outright pace or not.

[LSX-438]

Check out the video "Secret Life of F1" which revolves around creative rule interpretation over the last few decades. Extremely interesting stuff; rules can never cover 100% every eventuality/circumstance/situation thus subjectivity will always be a factor. No point denying it or wishing it wasn't so.

[Duncan]

Thought I should add my choice.

I've only ever seriously had a shot at 2 race series.

The first was a promotor controlled single make series. They provided the cars, no competitor had any part in preparing them. The racing was super close which was excellent. However, over time the repair bills just got silly, $1k in new bumpers, guards and bonnets every round. That and the favourite customers got the quickest cars, even in a single make series the quick cars were up to 10% quicker than the slow cars. 3 years in that series.

So I moved to racing production cars (CAMS 3E) in NSW, which as a bonus was identical to cams rally rules at the time except for brakes and boost. The regs for production cars only run to about 5 pages, and the first rule is "if its not in these rules it cannot be modified". Some insight into the rules and how they are enforced:

* I have had my sway bars measured with vernier calipers

* I have had my diff ratio measured by turning the wheels on stands and checking how many times the tail shaft rotates.

* I have had my fuel checked.

* I have to tun a pop off valve that releases all boost if it goes over the factory 12psi. If it goes off it takes me 2-4 seconds to get it back, by then the cars are miles past me.

* I have to run standard wheel size, 17x8. So the widest tyre I can run is 235. Tyres are marked and I can only run 2 new tyres per round.

* I have to run standard weight (easy with a cage in) and cannot run lower than 100mm (ie same as a road car). These is checked every 2-3 rounds for every car

* When I build a motor it has to be sealed. If the motor is not sealed any other competitor can force me to disassemble it and prove if they protest. If I run without a proper seal for 12 months I have to tear it down no matter what. When the motor is sealed they measure bore, stroke, head gasket, block height, head height (calculate CR), and the CC of the combustion chambers. The cams have to be measured by the single approved measurer, picked up by the engine sealer and put in the engine in their presence. They then seal the motor with 6 seals (2 on sump, 2 on each cam cover). If I remove a seal eg to torque down head bolts I have to start it all again.

* Engine seals and tyres are checked every round for every car. We have a full "scruitiny audit" which takes about an hour every 3-5 races

5 years in that series so far. And if the engine rules sound tough they are much better than the national series. They don't seal engines they do random checks after rounds. One of our guys did a national round in vic, got selected for a check and were given a rattle gun and a hoist. They had to pull the motor out and strip it in the presence of the scuits for measuring. When the measuring was finished, confirmed OK, the scruits said thanks and left. Car and motor in bits on the floor.

I will never run an event like superlap or sports sedans with any expectation to place well. To me a series with no rules will always be won by the person who spends the most. And that means unless you are the richest person in the world, someone can spend more than you.

[fatz]

Thought I should add my choice.

I've only ever seriously had a shot at 2 race series.

The first was a promotor controlled single make series. They provided the cars, no competitor had any part in preparing them. The racing was super close which was excellent. However, over time the repair bills just got silly, $1k in new bumpers, guards and bonnets every round. That and the favourite customers got the quickest cars, even in a single make series the quick cars were up to 10% quicker than the slow cars. 3 years in that series.

So I moved to racing production cars (CAMS 3E) in NSW, which as a bonus was identical to cams rally rules at the time except for brakes and boost. The regs for production cars only run to about 5 pages, and the first rule is "if its not in these rules it cannot be modified". Some insight into the rules and how they are enforced:

* I have had my sway bars measured with vernier calipers

* I have had my diff ratio measured by turning the wheels on stands and checking how many times the tail shaft rotates.

* I have had my fuel checked.

* I have to tun a pop off valve that releases all boost if it goes over the factory 12psi. If it goes off it takes me 2-4 seconds to get it back, by then the cars are miles past me.

* I have to run standard wheel size, 17x8. So the widest tyre I can run is 235. Tyres are marked and I can only run 2 new tyres per round.

* I have to run standard weight (easy with a cage in) and cannot run lower than 100mm (ie same as a road car). These is checked every 2-3 rounds for every car

* When I build a motor it has to be sealed. If the motor is not sealed any other competitor can force me to disassemble it and prove if they protest. If I run without a proper seal for 12 months I have to tear it down no matter what. When the motor is sealed they measure bore, stroke, head gasket, block height, head height (calculate CR), and the CC of the combustion chambers. The cams have to be measured by the single approved measurer, picked up by the engine sealer and put in the engine in their presence. They then seal the motor with 6 seals (2 on sump, 2 on each cam cover). If I remove a seal eg to torque down head bolts I have to start it all again.

* Engine seals and tyres are checked every round for every car. We have a full "scruitiny audit" which takes about an hour every 3-5 races

5 years in that series so far. And if the engine rules sound tough they are much better than the national series. They don't seal engines they do random checks after rounds. One of our guys did a national round in vic, got selected for a check and were given a rattle gun and a hoist. They had to pull the motor out and strip it in the presence of the scuits for measuring. When the measuring was finished, confirmed OK, the scruits said thanks and left. Car and motor in bits on the floor.

I will never run an event like superlap or sports sedans with any expectation to place well. To me a series with no rules will always be won by the person who spends the most. And that means unless you are the richest person in the world, someone can spend more than you.

coff

cant wait to join

coff

[Marlin]

Gee, most here disagree with me, I went for "Absolutely everything, to the letter".

But funnily enough, I'm not that concerned. I prefer to just go as hard as I/we can, beat them on the track, and smile knowingly at the cheaters

[navdan]

Someone said to me on the weekend....Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men Kind of fitting really!