E85 Fuel Setup

[XRATED]

Unfortunately Weldon pumps are only rated for gasoline/petrol. They would not be a good choice for E85.

Yeah that was my BAD... all the other Weldon pumps are rated for gasoline-meth/nitro mix and anyhting inbetween... just not the inline pumps as it seems. Try this pump on for size: http://www.weldonracing.com/product/19-6/D..._Outlet%29.html

realistically - is it possible that with boost around 25psi I may see 370+ rwkw (been reading NYTSKY's build thread).

what other single pump would flow enough and be suitable for E85?

I dont want to be running out of fuel all because I opted for the wrong external pump OR didn't go down the 2 x external pump options.

Seems there are a few conflicting options... which makes it hard lol.

Appreciate the input, keep it coming.

-Matt

http://www.weldonracing.com/product/19-6/D..._Outlet%29.html -They're not cheap, but either is leaning out and engine and killing it. Weldon are considered one of the best pumps in the world.

http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fue...ator-fuel-pump/

http://www.sx-performance.com/18207INS%20%201824270711-1.pdf

http://www.magnafuel.com/products/efi/pumps/MP-4301.htm

I know of two well built (expensive) engines that have leaned out and gone boom using 2x 044's, because the failing pump was very hard to diagnose... One of the setups the failing pump locked up and started bleading fuel back from the high pressure side to the low pressure side... If you do go twin pumps, install a non return valve on the suction side of each pump.

I'm not totally against twin pumps, but for the cost for 2 pumps and the additional plumbing hardware, you can buy a single pump and keep the whole thing simpler/more reliabale. Australia seems to have a love affair with 044's???

My advice Matt is to ask your tuner/builder- at the end of the day, this is an internet forum and not exactily the word of god.

Cheers

Justin

[N1GTR]

The injector dynamic injectors ID1000s are awesome but by my calcs they should be good for at least 500rwkw on E85 unless its a very ineffcient engine.

It's a stock head (no porting) so it's not as efficient as it could be, I just want to see how far it can go before swapping to a ported head

The ones that maxed out weren't ID's they were rochesters

[s2d4]

Fuel surge around corners on the track? this doesn't happen at the drags?

Separate relay to power the pump? why is this bad?

As for the complications, what complications and issues were you refering to?

One 044 pump will be fine as long as you don't try and run stupid high rail pressure and run a seperate relay to power the pump.

I don't actually see how two pumps gives you "safety". If one pump fails and the other isnt enough your still screwed. I see the complications of running two pumps more likely to cause issues.

FYI - Running 425 rwkw on e85 with one 044 in tank and run the 141 mph to back it up as well

Yer - Thats No surge tanks, no lift pumps, even stock fuel lines and fuel filter.

...

Edited June 12, 2010 by s2d4

[XRATED]

Fuel surge around corners on the track? this doesn't happen at the drags?

I wouldn't want to take the chance.... would you?

You can get away with running more than 1/2 a tank at the drags... I ran 1/2 a tank for the first season I drag raced my GTR. If you'r planing on plenty of "fun" driving... it's a worth while investment. The undercar mounted surgetank/pump mount kit's are quite a good idea... less in cabin noise, no fuel smell, legal and easier plumbing.

A relay will let you run a much larger power cable to the fuel pump, it will also bypass the factory fuel pump speed controller. You need to get the fuel pump the most voltage and amperage you can, in order for it to work to it's maximum potential.

Don't cheap out on the fuel system...

J.

Edited June 12, 2010 by XRATED

[s2d4]

Yeah, that is what I was referring to purely because what he said didn't make much sense. I think 400-500 on an extra pump, fittings and lines for a peace of mind is better than a mega dollar engine gone down the tubes...

I wouldn't want to take the chance.... would you?

You can get away with running more than 1/2 a tank at the drags... I ran 1/2 a tank for the first season I drag raced my GTR. If you'r planing on plenty of "fun" driving... it's a worth while investment. The undercar mounted surgetank/pump mount kit's are quite a good idea... less in cabin noise, no fuel smell, legal and easier plumbing.

A relay will let you run a much larger power cable to the fuel pump, it will also bypass the factory fuel pump speed controller. You need to get the fuel pump the most voltage and amperage you can, in order for it to work to it's maximum potential.

Don't cheap out on the fuel system...

J.

Edited June 12, 2010 by s2d4

[XRATED]

Yeah, that is what I was referring to purely because what he said didn't make much sense. I think 400-500 on an extra pump, fittings and lines for a peace of mind is better than a mega dollar engine gone down the tubes...

Yep... makes scense to me.

If you want a good deal on a weldon pump, these guys do me good prices. They're in Texas.

http://www.t1racedevelopment.com/en/home.html

J.

Edited June 12, 2010 by XRATED

[Butters]

I know of two well built (expensive) engines that have leaned out and gone boom using 2x 044's, because the failing pump was very hard to diagnose... One of the setups the failing pump locked up and started bleading fuel back from the high pressure side to the low pressure side... If you do go twin pumps, install a non return valve on the suction side of each pump.

Thats exactly what I am talking about. I have also seen several engines die on twin pump setups. None on a single pump setup.

Spend the extra $500 + on a AFR meter or knock meter or fuel pressure gauge. Just make sure they have audible warning.

This will also show up any fuel surge. I agree this can be a problem and have nothing against a surge tank with a SINGLE PUMP.

As said above try and get one under car.

I also have a car with twin pumps and in boot surge setup and its such a pain in the arse compared to my other car. Even with hard lines the way its setup the rubber lines under the car smell through the holes for the hard lines.

[s2d4]

bulk head fittings and teflon lines will solve that problem with fuel smell.

Check will solve that high pressure to low pressure problem.

if one pump fail, at least one still works so u can limp it around to get it sorted. not likely with the one pum setup.

complication can be good if the kinks are engineered out as u'd have the benefits without the downfalls.

Thats exactly what I am talking about. I have also seen several engines die on twin pump setups. None on a single pump setup.

Spend the extra $500 + on a AFR meter or knock meter or fuel pressure gauge. Just make sure they have audible warning.

This will also show up any fuel surge. I agree this can be a problem and have nothing against a surge tank with a SINGLE PUMP.

As said above try and get one under car.

I also have a car with twin pumps and in boot surge setup and its such a pain in the arse compared to my other car. Even with hard lines the way its setup the rubber lines under the car smell through the holes for the hard lines.

[rob82]

Yeah that was my BAD... all the other Weldon pumps are rated for gasoline-meth/nitro mix and anyhting inbetween... just not the inline pumps as it seems. Try this pump on for size: http://www.weldonracing.com/product/19-6/D..._Outlet%29.html

http://www.weldonracing.com/product/19-6/D..._Outlet%29.html -They're not cheap, but either is leaning out and engine and killing it. Weldon are considered one of the best pumps in the world.

http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fue...ator-fuel-pump/

http://www.sx-performance.com/18207INS%20%201824270711-1.pdf

http://www.magnafuel.com/products/efi/pumps/MP-4301.htm

I know of two well built (expensive) engines that have leaned out and gone boom using 2x 044's, because the failing pump was very hard to diagnose... One of the setups the failing pump locked up and started bleading fuel back from the high pressure side to the low pressure side... If you do go twin pumps, install a non return valve on the suction side of each pump.

I'm not totally against twin pumps, but for the cost for 2 pumps and the additional plumbing hardware, you can buy a single pump and keep the whole thing simpler/more reliabale. Australia seems to have a love affair with 044's???

My advice Matt is to ask your tuner/builder- at the end of the day, this is an internet forum and not exactily the word of god.

Cheers

Justin

Dont put them one way valves on the suction side thats a dumb idea. If you go twin 044 get the proper ball valves from enzed and put them in front of the pumps this way fuel pressure wont beled down after they turn off. Also only switch the second pump on when it is required so you dont heat the fuel to much.

There is a new bosch motorsport pump that they list in there new motorsport catalog supports 5.6L/min at 5Bar with only a 4% drop in flow at 95C fuel temperature!

[rob82]

Thats exactly what I am talking about. I have also seen several engines die on twin pump setups. None on a single pump setup.

Quote of the day right there!!! - No I've never seen an engine fail with just one pump its allways when theres been two.

[s2d4]

Just wondering, what are the cons of the twin pump setup?

Quote of the day right there!!! - No I've never seen an engine fail with just one pump its allways when theres been two.

[XRATED]

bulk head fittings and teflon lines will solve that problem with fuel smell.

Check will solve that high pressure to low pressure problem.

if one pump fail, at least one still works so u can limp it around to get it sorted. not likely with the one pum setup.

complication can be good if the kinks are engineered out as u'd have the benefits without the downfalls.

Bulkhead fittings will help, but the teflon hose isn't 100 at keeping the smell out... Teflon lined hose also has a very large bend radius compared to rubber, not to mention you need teflon/braided compatable end fittings... you cant use the regular rubber/braided fittings.

If your engine requires more fuel than one pump can supply and you run two pumps, then you run the risk of one pump not "switching on" or one pump failing... either way the other pump will support the flow rate right up untill the demand becomes to great (usually right near the top of your power curve) thus rail pressure drops and your AFR's head south very quickly.... this normally happens right around peak torque and nearly peak hp. You won't diagnose a shot fuel pump or notice the lack of fuel pressure untill it's to late.

I'd rather stop dead on the road/track and push the car off the road before I kill a 10/20k motor... easy to diagnose too.

Dont put them one way valves on the suction side thats a dumb idea. If you go twin 044 get the proper ball valves from enzed and put them in front of the pumps this way fuel pressure wont beled down after they turn off. Also only switch the second pump on when it is required so you dont heat the fuel to much.

There is a new bosch motorsport pump that they list in there new motorsport catalog supports 5.6L/min at 5Bar with only a 4% drop in flow at 95C fuel temperature!

I'd like you to explain why a correctly sized, inline, non return valve positioned at the low pressure/suction side of a pump is a "dumb idea"??? ... this is gonna be good.

AND why a ball valve??? is better...

Did you read the reason why you would put a non return valve on each pump running in paralell????

Cheers

Justin

[s2d4]

Wouldn't this be the same if you are running single? if it doesn't switch on due to faulty circuit that would be the same as twin pumps.

If you have one pump and it fails, wouldn't you still run into that problem at the top of the power curve?

If your engine requires more fuel than one pump can supply and you run two pumps, then you run the risk of one pump not "switching on" or one pump failing... either way the other pump will support the flow rate right up untill the demand becomes to great (usually right near the top of your power curve) thus rail pressure drops and your AFR's head south very quickly.... this normally happens right around peak torque and nearly peak hp. You won't diagnose a shot fuel pump or notice the lack of fuel pressure untill it's to late.

Cheers

Justin

[Adriano]

Depends how it fails. If it dies, the the motor will stop running, wheras with a twin setup, if one fails the motor will lean out the next time it sees full load

[s2d4]

so how does it fail? does the flow rate drop over time or an instantaneous dead pump?

[JonnoHR31]

can do either. a pump can instantly die and stop pumping or it can very slowly die, flowing less and less as it does which is what kills engines

[s2d4]

So lets factor in both cases for either the one pump and two pump setup after the 500HP mark where the uprated japanese in tank fuel pumps lose their reliability? Then factor in e85 adding 30% to the fuel requirement so effectively matching flow requirement of ~660hp on BP98. Living on the edge here doesn't really help of course.

One pump

Instantly die:Motor shuts off, could be at the peak of the power band.

Slowly die:Eventually leaning out at the peak

Two Pump

Instantly die:Motor still runs, leaning out at the peak

Slowly die:Motor still runs, may take longer before leaning out at the peak

is that how the scenarios would pan out? which one is actually better.

can do either. a pump can instantly die and stop pumping or it can very slowly die, flowing less and less as it does which is what kills engines

[JonnoHR31]

one pump instantly dying is the best, as the engine just cuts out. it may lean out for a second but usually not long enough to do much damage.

the main reason two pumps are dangerous is if one dies and you still get enough flow from the first to run normally your not going to have any idea that a pump has died. which means you'll keep hitting peak power etc without knowing its running lean. for example, say you have 2 pumps that flow 200lph each (~400lph combined) and you need 250lph under full load. if 1 pump dies completely your motor will only be getting the 200lph from the other pump (assuming you have 1 way valves), leaving you 50lph short, this will result in a drop in fuel pressure and afr's going lean. you could drive it like this for ages without realising until its too late

as said earlier, a wideband and gauge would remove any doubt everytime you plant your foot and is relatively cheap insurance.

Edited June 12, 2010 by JonnoHR31

[XRATED]

Wouldn't this be the same if you are running single? if it doesn't switch on due to faulty circuit that would be the same as twin pumps.

If you have one pump and it fails, wouldn't you still run into that problem at the top of the power curve?

If a single pump dosn't switch on.... the car wont go- at all.

Depends how it fails... if you have one pump and it's on it's way out, you will notice it before you get into the top of the power curve.

J.

[s2d4]

What you are saying makes sense, in addition to what you've mentioned I think using some knock control on the ecu and fuel pressure activated ignition cut would be good too. This also applies to the single pump set up as well. Thus a twin pump set up with these precautions engineered into the design should be fine.

An bosch 044 apparently supports around 600-700hp, this is somewhat odd to me as the japanese pumps at ~265lph is rated at 550ps.

So lets say you have two 044 pumps supporting 660, this would be ok?

one pump instantly dying is the best, as the engine just cuts out. it may lean out for a second but usually not long enough to do much damage.

the main reason two pumps are dangerous is if one dies and you still get enough flow from the first to run normally your not going to have any idea that a pump has died. which means you'll keep hitting peak power etc without knowing its running lean. for example, say you have 2 pumps that flow 200lph each (~400lph combined) and you need 250lph under full load. if 1 pump dies completely your motor will only be getting the 200lph from the other pump (assuming you have 1 way valves), leaving you 50lph short, this will result in a drop in fuel pressure and afr's going lean. you could drive it like this for ages without realising until its too late

as said earlier, a wideband and gauge would remove any doubt everytime you plant your foot and is relatively cheap insurance.

Edited June 12, 2010 by s2d4