140km/h Off-peak Speed Limit

[llama_au]

Thing is. People need to be taught how to drive on those roads...

And we need better road surfaces before that could even be considered.

[mickey]

http://www.keepntlimitfree.org/ has some stats which may be applicable.

unfortunately it'll just keep getting that way unless drivers and educators move up a rung and so do cars.

Maybe to keep crap drivers off high limits they introduce a 'super license' of sorts and if you have one you can then drive in the 'open right lane/140km/h' of some roads? That will mean current crap drivers will have to sit through intensive training/tests or fail and continue in the left/middle lane only (subject to traffic). P platers could also be subject to the left/middle lane only pending say 12 months of blemish free driving, and perhaps if you commit any offence such as running a red light, speeding, etc. contrary to the road rules it resets the time for a further 12 months?

therefore you have a system where new drivers can be tested in the new tougher regime and are P platers to get their eye in before 'graduating' to the 'super license' (maybe a retest at this point?) and existing drivers can try their hand and see if they are good enough or stick with the 'standard' license. Drivers and cars should perhaps be tested/RWC every year for the first 5 years, then every 3 years until age 65 before every year again? Let's face it, when we are young we are sometimes stupid and when we are old we don't have the same reaction times anymore.

This type of system will not penalise any existing drivers as they can drive as they are now, and will allow for standards to increase for those drivers good enough. It will also mean that eventually the bad drivers should be reduced as old ones stop driving and new drivers are better taught. Then the system can be updated so that if the limits increase, so too can the training and criteria for gaining the 'super license'. It can also mean international/inexperienced/scared drivers can still drive but not interfere with experienced road users.

[Hachi Roku]

......I'm far from the greatest driver, but I still to road rules like glue because my license is far too precious for me to lose. More people need to have that same mentality, make the penalties for bad driving 5x worse, 5x the points and 5x the fines, things would change very quickly drivers would become more alert and generally better. Its the only way to convert the current useless crop of road users to reasonable drivers. Obviously reforms would also have remove the stupid 0-10km/h over the speed limit bullshit and a few other things but I think given time it could work. But in doing that you would K.O a massive source of government revenue, if you get done for 25km/h you lose your license as opposed to being able to pay 4 fines, you only pay 1, so its doubtful something like that would ever be implemented....

.........Next comes the type of vehicles, a P plater who is an inexperienced driver does not need a big powerful car. Comparisons are regularly made with European countries, 1-1.5 litre cars will suffice however the bigger picture of the local industry needs to be considered here. A young driver doesn't need any more confidence than they already have with the freedom of a car. This includes power, music, full of mates, weather, traffic conditions, wildlife etc. Mitigate as much risk as possible........

I'm going to have to disagree with you there 'FrangaR33'. Uping the fines and penalties wont stop people from speeding and killing themselves. We all know it's illegal to speed yet people do it anyway. 5x the points, 5x the fine, people will still continue to break the law. Look at all these kids killing themselves; they know they can only have one passenger, they know they can only drive at 60km/h on hypothetical road, yet they still pack their car with five of their good mates and go flying down the road at 160km/h into their neighbors tree. So worse fines wont stop them doing it. Restricting what they can drive will help immensely.

Going off what 'saff_cossie' was saying, restricting P-Platers to four cylinder vehicles, I think, will reduce our road toll. It takes much more time for a four cylinder to get to that tree hitting 160km/h than a Commodore/Falcon. Being forced to drive a lower powered vehicle for four years will give new drivers a chance to develop driving skills. I bought my first car at 16. It was a 1982 Toyota Celica. Now this car is quite capable of driving at 200km/h, however, it will take about fifteen minutes to get to that speed. Head to head, my car was able to keep up with my mates brand new magnate ute until 60km/h, after that though it was a different story. During my time as a P-Plater I learned many driving skills such as, heel and tow, clutch kicking, threshold breaking and weight transfer. All skills you don't need a high powered car to learn.

Now sorry to all you P-Platerd that are shouting at me saying,"But I need my V6 Commodore/4Letre Falcon Ute for work". Well did you guys know that they have 4 cylinder utes that have more than enough torque for your working purposes? Toyota have their Hilux's, Mazda have their Bravo's, and I'm sure there are many other vehicles out there that can do the job.

Having developed my new driving skills I now feel more experienced and ready to handle high power cars, as would most drivers if they took this course of action.

Sorry for the long read guys lol

Daniel

[FrangaR33]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there 'FrangaR33'. Uping the fines and penalties wont stop people from speeding and killing themselves. We all know it's illegal to speed yet people do it anyway. 5x the points, 5x the fine, people will still continue to break the law. Look at all these kids killing themselves; they know they can only have one passenger, they know they can only drive at 60km/h on hypothetical road, yet they still pack their car with five of their good mates and go flying down the road at 160km/h into their neighbors tree. So worse fines wont stop them doing it. Restricting what they can drive will help immensely.

Going off what 'saff_cossie' was saying, restricting P-Platers to four cylinder vehicles, I think, will reduce our road toll. It takes much more time for a four cylinder to get to that tree hitting 160km/h than a Commodore/Falcon. Being forced to drive a lower powered vehicle for four years will give new drivers a chance to develop driving skills. I bought my first car at 16. It was a 1982 Toyota Celica. Now this car is quite capable of driving at 200km/h, however, it will take about fifteen minutes to get to that speed. Head to head, my car was able to keep up with my mates brand new magnate ute until 60km/h, after that though it was a different story. During my time as a P-Plater I learned many driving skills such as, heel and tow, clutch kicking, threshold breaking and weight transfer. All skills you don't need a high powered car to learn.

Now sorry to all you P-Platerd that are shouting at me saying,"But I need my V6 Commodore/4Letre Falcon Ute for work". Well did you guys know that they have 4 cylinder utes that have more than enough torque for your working purposes? Toyota have their Hilux's, Mazda have their Bravo's, and I'm sure there are many other vehicles out there that can do the job.

Having developed my new driving skills I now feel more experienced and ready to handle high power cars, as would most drivers if they took this course of action.

Sorry for the long read guys lol

Daniel

P-Platers are always going to be dickheads no matter how much you punish them I completely concur. Hell even my father who grew up in 60's wrapped a mini with 6 mates in it around a pole, so limiting power is completely irrelevant. But like Skaife said in the story in Germany the teenagers are taught to manage speed, to manage powerful cars, there's no point letting them only have little 4-cylinder cars your only postponing the inevitable, they will end up driving a high powered car and no idea how to drive it. I call BS on the whole 4 cylinder thing anyway, a NA SR20 in a S13-S15 will easily make more power per ton than a VN Commodore or EA falcon. If we take into account the modern Euro 4 cylinders it becomes an a completely moot point.

The fines arent for the P-Platers they are for the rest of the general public, make it unaffordable to speed and to break the road rules and watch the number fines tumble. Hearing about a friend getting a $1500 fine will soon motivate people to obey the road rules. They will have no choice, if they do they get financially hammered, most families cant afford to fork out $1500 so then a beautiful thing happens people start forcing each other to obey the road rules in order to not get fined, so the government doesnt need to ram home that message. I think less than 10k's over should be considered a pointless offence it happens to everyone and speeding should be based on a percentage based system as opposed to the current system. 20km/h over the speed limit on the freeway is really meaningless yet in a school zone at 3:00 in the afternoon it is a massive issue, yet both warrant the same punishment.

It works brilliantly well in Germany, there the fine is 450 euros just for not keeping to the left (actually to the right in Germany but as to not confuse people) so it forces you to do the right thing. What people dont know is the Germans frown on speeding in a massive fashion it may be okay to drive as fast as you like on the Autobahn but when you get off there onto a normal highway or into a residential area the German cops will get you. Add to that the massive number of safety cameras (actually safety cameras not like the bullshit here) that get unroadworthy and unregistered vehicles off the road and also notify police if your breaking the law you end up with one of the safest road networks in the world.

[saff_cossie]

They did that in Northern Ireland.

Worked well and boosted the economy.

Wasn't limited to just NI and was a disgrace IMO.

Had some good points especially in a time of recession for dealers with high stock levels. Caused a lot more pain for independant workshops who number highly who used to maintain the older vehicles and rely on their servicing/MOT revenue. To compound it when a new vehicle doesn't need an MOT (RWC) for the first 3 years means there is no end in sight, knock on effect with motor factors etc. I know a number of people on the negative end of that scheme, more than the positive end. Guys with families having to cut down to 3 days a week rather than being made redundant to name one, car detailers at those places. Once that car is moved off the forecourt, they need not see it again for 12 months or more. An older car has multiple expenditure items in that period, tyres, batteries, servicing etc.

[Hachi Roku]

P-Platers are always going to be dickheads no matter how much you punish them I completely concur. Hell even my father who grew up in 60's wrapped a mini with 6 mates in it around a pole, so limiting power is completely irrelevant. But like Skaife said in the story in Germany the teenagers are taught to manage speed, to manage powerful cars, there's no point letting them only have little 4-cylinder cars your only postponing the inevitable, they will end up driving a high powered car and no idea how to drive it. I call BS on the whole 4 cylinder thing anyway, a NA SR20 in a S13-S15 will easily make more power per ton than a VN Commodore or EA falcon. If we take into account the modern Euro 4 cylinders it becomes an a completely moot point.

The fines arent for the P-Platers they are for the rest of the general public........20km/h over the speed limit on the freeway is really meaningless yet in a school zone at 3:00 in the afternoon it is a massive issue, yet both warrant the same punishment......

I never suggested that fines were ment for P-Plater, nor was my post targeting them, however I can see how it could be taken that way. I was just going along with Skaifie on how we need more training and experience for younger drivers. Yes there are laws and yes you should obey them, that goes for everyone, I do not disagree with you there. Especially in the case of school zone at 3:00 in the afternoon.

However as for my four cylinder proposal, perhaps you should look more into it. A VN commodore is only about 100kg heavier than an S13-15. Stock non turbo SR20 make between 100kw-125kw (Correct me if I'm wrong please, I'm not an SR20 expert lol) and the stock VN V6 made about 125kw (Again corrections). Now I'm sure being a larger displacement, the V6 will have more torque yes? If so, which car do you think is going to be faster from 60km/h, 80km/h or 100km/h? It's the distance in which it takes these drivers to reach the high speeds that they kill themselves at is what we need to stop young drivers from achieving. You don't hear of many young drivers, or older drivers for that manner in fatal accident on 100km/h highways. I'm not saying you don't hear about them, because we do! Most seem to be in place where the speed has been deemed safe to drive at 80km/h or below. With Skaifes proposal of 140km/h speeds at off peek times on some roads, I see no problem in letting P-Plate drivers drive at these speeds. In doing so they gain the experience to handle there car at higher speeds and can see how the speed affects there car. After four years of driving in their four cylinder car at speeds up to 140km/h, SAFELY, they with have the experience and skill base to handle a higher powered car.

Daniel

P.S quote "......make it unaffordable to speed and to break the road rules and watch the number fines tumble. Hearing about a friend getting a $1500 fine will soon motivate people to obey the road rules. They will have no choice, if they do they get financially hammered, most families cant afford to fork out $1500 so then a beautiful thing happens people start forcing each other to obey the road rules in order to not get fined, so the government doesnt need to ram home that message......"

It wont stop everyone from speeding. They know it's illegal in the first place yet they do it anyway. It will stop a lot of people yes for example you and me(Theres no way I want to fork out $1500 for speeding) but for those whom don't pay attention to speed signs it will have no affect, and they are the ones having the accidents

[scotty014]

its the music these kids listen to, it pumps up there adrenalin. if they were only allowed to listen to classical music than problem solved.

[bti_jet]

its the music these kids listen to, it pumps up there adrenalin. if they were only allowed to listen to classical music than problem solved.

i wouldn't care if im listening to fart noises, my foot will still be alil bit heavy

[FrangaR33]

I never suggested that fines were ment for P-Plater, nor was my post targeting them, however I can see how it could be taken that way. I was just going along with Skaifie on how we need more training and experience for younger drivers. Yes there are laws and yes you should obey them, that goes for everyone, I do not disagree with you there. Especially in the case of school zone at 3:00 in the afternoon.

However as for my four cylinder proposal, perhaps you should look more into it. A VN commodore is only about 100kg heavier than an S13-15. Stock non turbo SR20 make between 100kw-125kw (Correct me if I'm wrong please, I'm not an SR20 expert lol) and the stock VN V6 made about 125kw (Again corrections). Now I'm sure being a larger displacement, the V6 will have more torque yes? If so, which car do you think is going to be faster from 60km/h, 80km/h or 100km/h? It's the distance in which it takes these drivers to reach the high speeds that they kill themselves at is what we need to stop young drivers from achieving. You don't hear of many young drivers, or older drivers for that manner in fatal accident on 100km/h highways. I'm not saying you don't hear about them, because we do! Most seem to be in place where the speed has been deemed safe to drive at 80km/h or below. With Skaifes proposal of 140km/h speeds at off peek times on some roads, I see no problem in letting P-Plate drivers drive at these speeds. In doing so they gain the experience to handle there car at higher speeds and can see how the speed affects there car. After four years of driving in their four cylinder car at speeds up to 140km/h, SAFELY, they with have the experience and skill base to handle a higher powered car.

Daniel

It wont stop everyone from speeding. They know it's illegal in the first place yet they do it anyway. It will stop a lot of people yes for example you and me(Theres no way I want to fork out $1500 for speeding) but for those whom don't pay attention to speed signs it will have no affect, and they are the ones having the accidents

No it wont stop everyone from speeding but it would make a massive difference to the current figures. There will always be dickheads who ignore the law and dont pay the fines. But they make up a tiny percentage of the general public most people speed because they know 99.9% of the time they can get away with it and even if they get caught its $150-300 fine, so its a case of whoopty do I got a $300 fine and I get everywhere faster the other 364 days of the year.

Sorry I didnt mean you were saying the fines were targeted, I'm was suggesting that moron P-Platers ignore the fines as they have more disposable income than the rest of the public due to mostly living at home with mum and dad.

Your right about the torque I got to give you that one. Although the point of what speed they are doing is almost irrelevant when you take the figures into account I read a article recently stating that the vast majority of accidents take place at or below the speed limits (I will see if I can find it). What lets down most of these P-Platers is the fact they are driving cars which havent been properly maintained in years, the brakes, suspension and tyres are completely haggard, so when they do try and take that corner even at the speed limit the car lets them down. And before everyone gets up and champions the NSW yearly inspection its a crock of shit, most of the garages where I'm currently living offer to do the inspection "while you wait", my Gf's parents 2000 Commodore got inspected and it took less than 15 minutes, you cant check everything in 15 f**king minutes. I'm all for proper inspections but at least do it right, not this current half assed bullshit where a mechanic just tries to cram in as many cars as they can a day.

What we really need to look at isnt the speeding its the losing control of the vehicle, I dont know if you've ever seen a car even after a low km/h its a big mess. My friend crashed his Gemini a (4 cylinder) into a pole at 50km and completely KO'ed the thing. Even the ANCAP safety tests are done at only 64 km/h and that makes huge mess of cars especially the older or more cheaply made ones

Its not speed that is the problem, its acceleration, anyone can drive at 140km/h as long as the cars suspension is set up properly its not really that different to doing 110km/h. I've been a 1962 Mercedes brilliantly maintained with that famous Mercedes suspension on Thailands excellent freeways flying around at 150-160km/h and it feels no different to 110km/h if anything the car is more planted.

I suppose what i'm really trying to say is it doesnt matter what car these P-Platers are driving they will find a way to kill themselves. My mate nearly killed himself in his Gemmy, my brother nearly did in his Pulsar and my mate who drives a Laser is constantly nearly killing himself. You can give them golf carts and they will find a way to soup them up and kill themselves. Its the "I have to prove myself" mentality that is left over from millions of years of evolution except now its not impressing your mates with your swordsmanship or horse riding skills its doing burnouts in a maccas carpark or drag racing. Just fyi I am 23 (didnt get my license till I was 20) and still currently a P-Plater at least for the 14 days I know what its like with all these bullshit restrictions. Look up the P-Plater roadtoll since they banned "High Powered Vehicles and I bet $$ to donuts that it hasnt gone down.

Edited June 15, 2010 by FrangaR33

[GUN_METAL_GTR32]

i couldnt agree anymore, speed doesnt kill people, inexperience does..and if you dont feel comfortable at 140km/h then go slower.. notice the votes 75% agree the limits should be raised. goverments fkd

i think hesitation is worse than inexperience

[Harey]

Mark Skaife for Roads Minister!

[johnd320]

In my opinion before we increase the speed limit to 140kph we need to fix freeway lane mergers. Look at the Eastern freeway heading in the city direction between Doncaster road and Bulleen road. The traffic regularly comes to a stand still even at 6.30 pm any day heading in the city direction, where the left lane coming off Doncaster road merges with the next lane. It appears that many drivers entering the freeway from Doncaster road do not have the ability to merge with the freeway traffic safely. The merge ends right on a bend in the freeway, resulting in traffic incidents (accidents).

[lukebaldan]

I'm all for a 140km/h speed limit, i know i'm capable of driving safely at those speeds, however.........

A fair number of people are simply not capable. I do not want incapable people doing these speeds when i'm on the road.

You are in fairy land if you think the vic government will remotely consider this, it's analogous to a catholic church providing soft core porn during mass.

Upping the speed limit to 140 will definately increase the road toll due to inexperienced drivers causing high speed accidents - bad

Upping the speed limit to 140 will hamper maximum revenue - bad

Upping the speed limit to 140 goes against the governments justification of speeding fines - bad

Instead of proposing something this silly, what needs to be done is better driver education. Have a look at many parts of Europe for example.

[Peter89]

I never suggested that fines were ment for P-Plater, nor was my post targeting them, however I can see how it could be taken that way. I was just going along with Skaifie on how we need more training and experience for younger drivers. Yes there are laws and yes you should obey them, that goes for everyone, I do not disagree with you there. Especially in the case of school zone at 3:00 in the afternoon.

However as for my four cylinder proposal, perhaps you should look more into it. A VN commodore is only about 100kg heavier than an S13-15. Stock non turbo SR20 make between 100kw-125kw (Correct me if I'm wrong please, I'm not an SR20 expert lol) and the stock VN V6 made about 125kw (Again corrections). Now I'm sure being a larger displacement, the V6 will have more torque yes? If so, which car do you think is going to be faster from 60km/h, 80km/h or 100km/h? It's the distance in which it takes these drivers to reach the high speeds that they kill themselves at is what we need to stop young drivers from achieving. You don't hear of many young drivers, or older drivers for that manner in fatal accident on 100km/h highways. I'm not saying you don't hear about them, because we do! Most seem to be in place where the speed has been deemed safe to drive at 80km/h or below. With Skaifes proposal of 140km/h speeds at off peek times on some roads, I see no problem in letting P-Plate drivers drive at these speeds. In doing so they gain the experience to handle there car at higher speeds and can see how the speed affects there car. After four years of driving in their four cylinder car at speeds up to 140km/h, SAFELY, they with have the experience and skill base to handle a higher powered car.

Daniel

P.S quote "......make it unaffordable to speed and to break the road rules and watch the number fines tumble. Hearing about a friend getting a $1500 fine will soon motivate people to obey the road rules. They will have no choice, if they do they get financially hammered, most families cant afford to fork out $1500 so then a beautiful thing happens people start forcing each other to obey the road rules in order to not get fined, so the government doesnt need to ram home that message......"

It wont stop everyone from speeding. They know it's illegal in the first place yet they do it anyway. It will stop a lot of people yes for example you and me(Theres no way I want to fork out $1500 for speeding) but for those whom don't pay attention to speed signs it will have no affect, and they are the ones having the accidents

you can go fast in any car. even a gutless 2001 corolla will reach 150kph in around 15-16seconds. banning cars has failed to do anything really plus it's not like most speeding is above 120kph anyways, its 90 in a 60zone. can do that in any car.

people just wouldn't pay the fines and drive without licenses. you'd just create a new problem. nearly EVERYONE hates the current speed limits and current fine system. no one i know thinks speeding fines are there to actually stop speeding, everyone know its just another revenue stream for the government.

ps: freeways are some of the safest roads if you compared crashes vs traffic use.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Peter89

[180Roman]

P.S quote "......make it unaffordable to speed and to break the road rules and watch the number fines tumble. Hearing about a friend getting a $1500 fine will soon motivate people to obey the road rules. They will have no choice, if they do they get financially hammered, most families cant afford to fork out $1500 so then a beautiful thing happens people start forcing each other to obey the road rules in order to not get fined, so the government doesnt need to ram home that message......"

It wont stop everyone from speeding. They know it's illegal in the first place yet they do it anyway. It will stop a lot of people yes for example you and me(Theres no way I want to fork out $1500 for speeding) but for those whom don't pay attention to speed signs it will have no affect, and they are the ones having the accidents

That will cause way more problems, everyone will be driving with their eyes glued to their speedo causing way more crashes

its not like inattentiveness already isn't the biggest cause of crashes

[xALmoN]

as mentioned before, the roads here need to be fixed first...

Its amazing how uneven the road surfaces are

[Equinox]

Which roads are you referring to?

Eastlink, Monash Freeway and the Eastern are all amazing.

[_Ryan_]

I never suggested that fines were ment for P-Plater, nor was my post targeting them, however I can see how it could be taken that way. I was just going along with Skaifie on how we need more training and experience for younger drivers. Yes there are laws and yes you should obey them, that goes for everyone, I do not disagree with you there. Especially in the case of school zone at 3:00 in the afternoon.

However as for my four cylinder proposal, perhaps you should look more into it. A VN commodore is only about 100kg heavier than an S13-15. Stock non turbo SR20 make between 100kw-125kw (Correct me if I'm wrong please, I'm not an SR20 expert lol) and the stock VN V6 made about 125kw (Again corrections). Now I'm sure being a larger displacement, the V6 will have more torque yes? If so, which car do you think is going to be faster from 60km/h, 80km/h or 100km/h? It's the distance in which it takes these drivers to reach the high speeds that they kill themselves at is what we need to stop young drivers from achieving. You don't hear of many young drivers, or older drivers for that manner in fatal accident on 100km/h highways. I'm not saying you don't hear about them, because we do! Most seem to be in place where the speed has been deemed safe to drive at 80km/h or below. With Skaifes proposal of 140km/h speeds at off peek times on some roads, I see no problem in letting P-Plate drivers drive at these speeds. In doing so they gain the experience to handle there car at higher speeds and can see how the speed affects there car. After four years of driving in their four cylinder car at speeds up to 140km/h, SAFELY, they with have the experience and skill base to handle a higher powered car.

Daniel

P.S quote "......make it unaffordable to speed and to break the road rules and watch the number fines tumble. Hearing about a friend getting a $1500 fine will soon motivate people to obey the road rules. They will have no choice, if they do they get financially hammered, most families cant afford to fork out $1500 so then a beautiful thing happens people start forcing each other to obey the road rules in order to not get fined, so the government doesnt need to ram home that message......"

It wont stop everyone from speeding. They know it's illegal in the first place yet they do it anyway. It will stop a lot of people yes for example you and me(Theres no way I want to fork out $1500 for speeding) but for those whom don't pay attention to speed signs it will have no affect, and they are the ones having the accidents

Now think about the diff ratios...

If road safety camers were for speed not revenue, they would have signs and be bright yellow.

[Peter89]

Which roads are you referring to?

Eastlink, Monash Freeway and the Eastern are all amazing.

disagree about the monash, road surface varies. its a long fwy.

apart from those, a lot of other main roads aren't great plus you also have to look at the design of intersections and cross roads.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Peter89

[xALmoN]

The freeways are alright, but generally roads are terrible.

Not sure about the monash because i dont take them. But there was this fwy i took to lakes entrance, passes narre warren and places like that, terrible.