Power Fc V's Microtech LTX-12

[B-Man]

1. Cheap and nasty throttle angle sensor as supplied with the LTX12, failed, ECU read throttle closed and decreased fuel supply. No error displayed, despite rpm at 9,000 and a MAP sensor reading appropriately (zero pressure because the throttle was wide open). Result = extreme lean mixture, no apex seals and a $6K 13B down the drain.

That's pretty bad - surely they have rectified that issue.

[Sydneykid]

Hi Bman, Oh yes I can buy a better throttle ange sensor, but that's not the point. I was showing the problem with map and air temp sensor driven ecu's. ZERO manifold pressure doesn't ALWAYS equal ZERO air flow. You want to know how much air is going into an engine, so you can put the right amount of fuel in to match that amount of air. There is only one way to know how much air is going into an engine, use an AFM. Any other way is using a formula to guess how much, and in some circumstances that guess is wrong.

If I have to use a map based ecu, then I make sure the one I am using has a good formula and sufficent processing power and programming logic to avoid this sort of problem. Hence Motec or Autronic are it for me.

I get accused of Wolf bashing, I don't want to have the same said about Microtech, so I am stopping now.

[Steve]

I think this debate is not looking at a pretty important issue

the ecu is only as good as who is pushing the buttons

I have had good tunes on my power fc, and I have had shockers

Whatsisname used a microtech to run a 12 at the 4,6 and rotor nats on a 44 deg day. The car idles perfectly, and drives very well on and off boost.

I am not in a position to start debating which is better, I chose power fc, I am happy with it, but there are feature I wish it had. I would be very tempted to look at microtech, as I have seen first hand what they are capable of. The wolf ecu looks quite nice too. If I had my choice and funds werent a problem, it would be autronic or motec - if nothing else for the traction control and the nice sequential (rotational) idle - fark it sounds so tough:p

[Ryno]

What's wrong with the Wolf, Sydneykid?

[Sydneykid]

Hi Steve, as you know we are spoilt for a dyno tuner, between myself (not so good) and Dyno Dave (brilliant). I don't really care what ECU it is, DD can get the best out of it. If the ECU isn't capable, then I know it isn't DD's fault. So the quality of the tuner is simply not a variable for us.

I hear this alll the time, "so and so did a 10 with an XYZ ecu, so it must be good". And don't give me "the it drives good too", line. I have at least 20 people who tell me that at every driver training and suspension diagnostic day and the reality is their car drives like shit. I stick them in our Skyline with the PFC and the first comment I get "is this car standard, it runs so nice?" Then they scrape their head off the rear window "oh no, it's not standard!" I am fussy, very fussy and I know what is possible, tuning a car to produce power is easy. Tuning a car to handle all conditions, hot, cold, wet, dry, stop start traffic, freeway, air con, tight parking etc etc, that's the hard bit.

Some ECU's are simply not up to it and some tuners don't want to spend the time. There is no glory in saying "I'm such a good tuner, the car idles like it's standard with the air con on during a 45 degree day whiler doing a U turn in city traffic". The glory is in "I'm such a good tuner, it makes 600 rwkw". I know which is harder, which requires more skill and which requires a "better" ecu. One man's meat, is another man's poison.

No Ryno, I am not going there, do a search, try starting here......

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/sh...lf+versus+power

Over and out from me, racing season approaches.

[N I B]

If you were as good as you say Sydneykid you would know Autronic ECUs don't have enabling codes or cost 5+k only Motec fits your description so till you really know what your talking about you should not miss lead SAU readers.

[GTRgeoff]

A basic Motec system will cost $3 K Steve-SST, but maybe they do a "special" for the WA folk to make them feel special.

So is there actually a point to your comment? I don't think SK's credentials are in need of establishment, and he at least shares some knowledge and experience regarding the items of interest......not a basic "use the Wolf".

Perhaps you could elaborate as to why the Wolf is a better solution. I have had a little to do with Wolf in Melbourne through a friend but am still undecided on a new computer and they are currently a maybe.

[N I B]

I don't care what happens outside of WA.No other ECU comes close in sales and results

as the Wolf over here.

[Steve]

skylinegeoff, perhaps do a search, there has been alot of info about the Wolf on this forum.

[HKSgtst]

sydneykid,

how come most Jap cars with big turbos dont use AFMs but use MAPs instead ? cheers.

[GTRgeoff]

skylinegeoff, perhaps do a search, there has been alot of info about the Wolf on this forum.

I will, I just wanted SteveSST to comment in detail to add to the value of this thread instead of negativity.

[Sydneykid]

Hi Steve-SST my post says.......

"$5,500 Autronic (that's what it costs with all the software enabled and the necessary hardware that you used in your examples)"

Where do I say enabling codes?

If you don't think the Autronic itself and the sensors necessary for all of Roy's examples adds up to $5.5K, fitted and tuned, then publish the retail prices of the parts and labour. It's that simple, don't SAY I'm wrong, PROOVE it.

Common Steve, let's say you're the best tuner in WA and you always recommend Wolf's. Why wouldn't they sell well? Realistically, if I lived in Perth, why wouldn't I buy a good product at a fair price from a tuner with a good reputation? It's not like I have too many other choices. As for numbers sold, I'll bet there are more Motecs in southern Sydney, than there are Wolfs in Perth. Crikey, I'll bet there have been more Autronics in Larry's workshop than there are Wolf's in all of Australia. There would be even more, except for the control ECU's in the dinosaurs now.

Lastly Steve, "If you were as good as you say Sydneykid", I never claim to be GOOD, I just tell it like I see it and I have no reason to do otherwise.

Sorry guys, this post is a bit off thread. But I think we would all benefit from the extra data that may flow from it.

PS; I'll make it easy for you, here is my list of parts, software and labour used on the last Autronic we fitted. Just put the recommended retail prices next to it. I I don't need to know your buy price, just what Autronic recommend it should be sold for.

SM2

Small Boost Control Valve

Autotune option

B Model Exhaust Gas Analyser

UEGO oxygen sensor

Reluctor Interface

Tacho Adapter

Throttle Position Sensor

Ford Idle Valve

SMC/SMD/SM2 manual tune calibration software

SMC/SMD/SM2 Autotune calibration software

Virtual Dash software

Crank & Distributor Trigger Setup software

SMC Mode Flag Setup software

Injection Range software

Traction Control Setup software

Wiring labour

Harness plugs and adaptors

Initialisation, configuration and sensor set up

Dyno Tuning

Track tuning (traction control and launch control set up)

Add it up, if it doesn't come to around $5.5K then I'll eat my hat (it's very dirty old Akubra too).

[Sydneykid]

Hi HKSgtst, Apexi V Max made 1,100 ps and ran an 8.4 for the 1/4 at 165 mph with air flow meters. As far as I know the current Skyline lap record at Tsukuba is held by the Mines GTR and it certainly has air flow meters. I certainly think 1100 ps is "lots of power", but that's not my point.

Some people use MAP's sensors, some use AFM's, I just happen to believe that Skylines run nicer on AFM's. I'm not saying that they make more power, or go faster, or use less petrol, or cost less. What I am saying is, for equal power, an AFM equipped Skyline, in all atmospheric conditions, will generally run nicer than a MAP sensor only equipped Skyline. I like my cars to run nice all the time, it's a lot harder than simply making lots of power.

If I was building a Skyline race car only (zero road work) then I would use a Motec M600 with a MAP sensor, no question about it. Because I don't really care if it starts and runs perfectly on cold mornings or handles air con on a 40 degree day. By far the majority of the people on this forum do lots of road work and want their cars to run nice. So I tailor my responses accordingly.

Hope that explains my reasoning

[Cubes]

I tend to agree with SK.

Fuel economy is a big thing for me as I do a fair wack of km's.

The Microtech doesn't do it for me. PowerFC does. IF the Microtech had closed loop I would most probably go with it.

The Wolf3D is as good if not slightly better in some respects to the powerFC however the big problem is the tuner in SA.

He doesn't make you feel confident with his tuning abilitys.

He is vague, well when I spoke to him he was (injector/ignition drivers).

The tuners who are associated with RPM Performance Center (Tim, Shaun) have always tuned well & safe. A safe economic tune is what I am after.

[DoughBoy]

Mechanical injection is teh winner in this debate guys, sorry to waste your time posting!

[N I B]

SM2 has TC standard and things like mode flags etc and why would you buy manual tune and auto tune and the tuner would have the Analyser plus many other silly examples you used. Anyone that uses Autronic would know your list is exagerated.Anyway i'm in WA and fit and tune a lot of ECUs every month

(Not just Wolf but I sell more Wolf than anyone in the World and have for many years)

Keep a look out for our Killer GTR on the front page of Zoom later this year.

[Sydneykid]

Hi Steve, yes Traction Control is standard on SM2, but you need the software to set it up, which is why it is on my list. You and I both know Autotune is pretty good, but not perfect. A good tuner like you can get more out of it with a bit of manual tweaking, so I included the Auto and Manual Tune software. Roy doesn't have a Analyser as far as I know and he would need one to tune his car. Leave it off your list if you like.

Bottom line, I take it my pricing was right?

[N I B]

I never us Autotune as i find i can tune faster.

[Sydneykid]

Hi Steve, Roy specified Autotune, that's why it's on my list. Plus the one we did, that I copied the list from, went to the Middle East and they had no local dyno shop there. So Autotune was a big advantage for them. I have used the Motec auto tuning software at Bathurst, it handled the altitude change very well. Environmental conditions are hard to duplicate in the dyno shop.

I suppose we could have carried a weather station with us, like we used to for the Nascars, but auto tune is lighter.

Whatever..........

[Cubes]

A little bit of interesting information regarding Wolf3D from Steve Taylor.

• Closed loop mode Yes
  
• 6 injector drivers No we have 5 injector drivers. Sequential injection is not as important as some people may think. It reduces emissions, and may improve idle a little, but for full power, it's not the most important factor as the injectors are open for around 90% of the time, meaning that it is not too important 'when' they are pulsed.
  
• 6 ignition drivers Yes
  
• Data logging Yes - Currently Min/Max data logging.