Petition Against Speed Camera's

[bozodos]

it should be pointed out that in Victoria they use civvie contractors, and now the cameras are integrated into the front bars of the cars and don't flash as brightly, so most of the time you have no idea until you get the fine in the mail or you're constantly scanning the sides of the road like everyone I know.

[jrm]

Aha, I was unaware that the 10% was only for registering speeds above your actual speed in reality, thanks for clarifying that . That still creates problems because you constantly have people driving too slowly because their speedo is out anyway. I've had my car for 2 years now and I rountinely drive from Melbourne to Sydney which has those radar speed checker things at the start of the Hume hwy in Melbourne and my car has never been more than 1km/h out at 100km/h even though my car hasnt been serviced by a proper mechanic in 5+ years. So its really not that difficult to make sure your doing the right speed. Also having larger/smaller rims and tyres on your car can effect the reading on the speedo also and has to be calibrated to be correct which also creates problems for people.

For cars manufacturerd prior to July 2006, ADRs were + or - 10% accuracy on speedometers at speeds above 40kph. However, after July 2006, the ADR was changed - it's pretty complicated, but you can read it all at the link below:

http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/files/ADR%201803.pdf

Essentially under the new ADRs, you cannot have under-reading (as described above), only over-reading - so yeah, it'll always display a higher speed than you're actually doing.

Either way, the new ADR does not apply to most of the car owners on SAU as our cars were manufactured prior to 2006.

[FrangaR33]

For cars manufacturerd prior to July 2006, ADRs were + or - 10% accuracy on speedometers at speeds above 40kph. However, after July 2006, the ADR was changed - it's pretty complicated, but you can read it all at the link below:

http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/files/ADR%201803.pdf

Essentially under the new ADRs, you cannot have under-reading (as described above), only over-reading - so yeah, it'll always display a higher speed than you're actually doing.

Either way, the new ADR does not apply to most of the car owners on SAU as our cars were manufactured prior to 2006.

Jesus christ you werent kidding when you said it was complicated. Sometimes I think they deliberately make things so complicated that the average joe has no idea what the hell he's reading. I deal with import regulations and customs a fair bit for work and I wish that all the paperwork and rules could be in plain english so I didnt need to reread the same thing 3 times to actually know what it means.

Anyway thanks for the info, much appreciated

[mad082]

Aha, I was unaware that the 10% was only for registering speeds above your actual speed in reality, thanks for clarifying that . That still creates problems because you constantly have people driving too slowly because their speedo is out anyway. I've had my car for 2 years now and I rountinely drive from Melbourne to Sydney which has those radar speed checker things at the start of the Hume hwy in Melbourne and my car has never been more than 1km/h out at 100km/h even though my car hasnt been serviced by a proper mechanic in 5+ years. So its really not that difficult to make sure your doing the right speed. Also having larger/smaller rims and tyres on your car can effect the reading on the speedo also and has to be calibrated to be correct which also creates problems for people.

speedo accuracy has nothing to do with servicing. it is an electrical device (cable on the 32's though) and whether you service your car yourself or have a mechanic do it, you won't be altering the accuracy of the speedo.

but yeah, tyre size can alter the speedo reading. generally this isn't an issue on cars, just 4wd's as the difference in car tyre size is usually only 1 or 2%. on a 4wd though it can be a massive difference. my brother in law's speedo on his patrol reads under by about 10 to 15kmh at 100kmh (says you are doing 100 when you are actually doing about 110/115kmh (can't remember which. this was going off the gps compared to the speedo)

[yellow300zx]

i don't like people throwing around the revenue from speed cameras issue as it is pointless. if you get caught by a fixed camera that you go past all the time then you are plain stupid and i hope you do it often enough to lose your licence for a while to get you off the roads.

the best way to stop the use of speed camera's etc is to not speed. it's as simple as that. obey the road rules and you'll never have to worry about it and the governement won't be making money from it.

as for speed cameras being a safety device, they are. if you know where one is then you won't speed there, and if you aren't speeding then someone makes a mistake resulting in you having to take evasive action, at the lower speed you will be able to stop sooner, steer around them without understeer easier, or if there is an impact, the force will be lower than if there was no camera and you were doing 5kmh over the limit.

I think you just completely didn't take notice at all with what iamhe77 said above you cause everything he explained was right and you just wrote what you said without a single thought? The simple fact is they are NOT for working for safety at ALL, the road toll is increasing EVERY year, the revenue increases for speed camera's and the speed limit is getting lower and lower, how can you argue with facts? Are you THAT brainwashed?

[Nee-san]

High Visibility policing has been and always will be, the most effecive measure against ALL crime, not only traffic infringements.

Speeding, along with a number of other traffic offences, when you forget all the dramatisation and sensationalism created from many years of highly expensive government media campaigns is a joke really, When you think about what is actually occuring and the impact the actual penalties have on peoples lives in the way of fines etc you begin to realise what speed enforcement really is; A highly efficient revenue stream.

How many other money making assets do you know of that break even on capital expendature in such a short space of time ?

[dannyb]

ok so they want to lower the road toll how about a red light camera on every intersection and a speed camera on every road in australia that way theres no excuse for speeding...

Or instead of spending the revenue on stupid pinky shaking advertisments how about they start drivers ed in high schools get some crash victims in there scare the shit out of the kids show them what their actions can do to others aswell as mandatory advanced driving courses as part of your l's then a refresher course and a basic skills test every 3-5 years to keep everyone up to date with new road rules, because if you spend enough time on the road you will see most of the rules are broken by people with a full licence not some dumb young p plater..

Educate people not to speed instead of just limiting what they can and can't drive..

[mad082]

I think you just completely didn't take notice at all with what iamhe77 said above you cause everything he explained was right and you just wrote what you said without a single thought? The simple fact is they are NOT for working for safety at ALL, the road toll is increasing EVERY year, the revenue increases for speed camera's and the speed limit is getting lower and lower, how can you argue with facts? Are you THAT brainwashed?

i'm not brainwashed at all. i think you may be by thinking that a petition on the internet will have the slightest bit of an effect on the government and make them get rid of speed cameras. you could print it out, hand it to the PM, and i bet that in 5 mins it would've gone through the shredder already, and to spite you they'd probably find out where you live and put a speed camera out the front of your house.

and did you ever think that the road toll may rise regardless simply because there are more and more people on the roads every year? so it is an enivtable fact that the number of crashes will increase due to their being more people on the roads as people get more frustrated.

as for the road toll vs number of speed cameras, it has been raised a few times in this thread and is one of the most stupid comparisons i have ever seen. it's as if people are almost trying to lay blame on speed cameras. a speed camera located in sydney can't be blamed for, or even remotely associated to, a crash that happens in any other part of the town/state/country. also they are only there to control speed, so if the crash was caused by a drunk driver or someone tailgating, etc, you can't link it in anyway to the speed camera. the sole aim of speed cameras is to catch the people breaking the law, and make people slow down because when an accident happens at a lower speed the impact force is less.

as for the revenue from speed cameras increasing, there is no one to blame other than the idiots who are speeding. you asked how i can argue with the facts, well how can you argue with that fact? it is extremely simple. don't speed = no fines. if you are dumb enough to not be able to figure that out, then i'm sorry, you are too stupid to help.

as for the speed limits decreasing, i think that you will actually find that the council or government that is in charge of that road (smaller local roads = local council remember), has asked for the speed limit to be reviewed due to complaints about the road (or the number of accidents). a stretch of the highway (about 50km long) where i live has had the speed limit reduced from 100kmh to 90kmh because of the number of accidents on it. it was lowered because of public demand for something to be done to reduce the road toll, and since there is a bypass under construction which will remove 90% of traffic from that stretch of road, it was the easiest, quickest, cheapest solution. since lowering the speed limit the number of fatal accidents has dropped dramatically (by probably 70%), because 20kmh has been taken off the impact force.

finally, the actual road toll is a bit of a misleading number anyway. the reason being that from 1 year to the next there may a higher road toll, but a reduction in the number of accidents. all it takes is for 2 cars with 5 occupants to collide and the road toll number is going to be much higher than if there had been 3 accidents that were either single car accidents or 2 car accidents with only 1 person in each car.

[Nee-san]

i'm not brainwashed at all. i think you may be by thinking that a petition on the internet will have the slightest bit of an effect on the government and make them get rid of speed cameras. you could print it out, hand it to the PM, and i bet that in 5 mins it would've gone through the shredder already, and to spite you they'd probably find out where you live and put a speed camera out the front of your house.

This is truth !

and did you ever think that the road toll may rise regardless simply because there are more and more people on the roads every year? so it is an enivtable fact that the number of crashes will increase due to their being more people on the roads as people get more frustrated.

Usually people look at the figures per capita or per 1000 people, total figures are useless without any relative comparison.

as for the road toll vs number of speed cameras, it has been raised a few times in this thread and is one of the most stupid comparisons i have ever seen. it's as if people are almost trying to lay blame on speed cameras. a speed camera located in sydney can't be blamed for, or even remotely associated to, a crash that happens in any other part of the town/state/country. also they are only there to control speed, so if the crash was caused by a drunk driver or someone tailgating, etc, you can't link it in anyway to the speed camera. the sole aim of speed cameras is to catch the people breaking the law, and make people slow down because when an accident happens at a lower speed the impact force is less.

It has been found that for some reason government statistics like to add that speeding was a "factor" in many accidents when it was not the "cause" and as im sure you can all work out, the day of the week or the kind of moon at that time is technically a "factor" but doesn't necessarily mean that either of these "factors" weighed heavily in the causation of the accident

as for the revenue from speed cameras increasing, there is no one to blame other than the idiots who are speeding. you asked how i can argue with the facts, well how can you argue with that fact? it is extremely simple. don't speed = no fines. if you are dumb enough to not be able to figure that out, then i'm sorry, you are too stupid to help.

Although yes, it is revenue raising the major gripe people have with the system is that it masquerades as a public service, whilst as many others have already pointed our the effectiveness of the covert speedcamera program is marginal.

as for the speed limits decreasing, i think that you will actually find that the council or government that is in charge of that road (smaller local roads = local council remember), has asked for the speed limit to be reviewed due to complaints about the road (or the number of accidents). a stretch of the highway (about 50km long) where i live has had the speed limit reduced from 100kmh to 90kmh because of the number of accidents on it. it was lowered because of public demand for something to be done to reduce the road toll, and since there is a bypass under construction which will remove 90% of traffic from that stretch of road, it was the easiest, quickest, cheapest solution. since lowering the speed limit the number of fatal accidents has dropped dramatically (by probably 70%), because 20kmh has been taken off the impact force.

And now we come down to to what it is really about, the government finding the "easiest, quickest, cheapest solution" to a problem, I mean, the road system is a national joke anyway, so making it even less efficient won't matter right guys ?

And yeah, I f**king hate the drive into gympie now which is the stretch of road im assuming you are talking about

finally, the actual road toll is a bit of a misleading number anyway. the reason being that from 1 year to the next there may a higher road toll, but a reduction in the number of accidents. all it takes is for 2 cars with 5 occupants to collide and the road toll number is going to be much higher than if there had been 3 accidents that were either single car accidents or 2 car accidents with only 1 person in each car

Exactly my friend ! you just highlighted why the use of government statistics is pretty much useless.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Nee-san

[mad082]

yes talking about the cooroy (end of 110kmh section) to gympie stretch of road. the 90kmh bit goes on a bit past gympie (you may know that though). the actual road from here to cooroy isn't that bad, but the idiots that drive on it are, and yet a lot of the blame gets put on the road. a lot of the accidents have been caused by servere driver error or not driving to the conditions.

and i understand the revenue raising bit is what annoys everyone, but the fact is that there seems to be a small perception difference between having a high police presence on the road and setting up an automated machine to do a similar thing. part of me thinks that all speed cameras should be painted neon pink so that people know that they are there and slow down. but the problem is that then they will only slow down for that short section of road then speed back up again. this is where the covert speed cameras come into play. they catch the people who are generally habitual speeders. unfortunately most of these just keep on speeding even after recieving the fine, and no amount of speed cameras or police presence on the road will slow them down until they have lost their licence, and then once they get it back it will start over.

the general argument against speed cameras is the same as the argument that always pops up after traffic fines are increased. "it's just revenue raising". but to be honest it isn't really. it's not like they are forcing som involuntary tax unpon us, or are raising the price of something. it's not like we have no choice in the matter. we have all the choice in the world on this. anyone complaining needs to look at it a different way. you are complaining about the punishment for someone breaking the law. if they made the minimum jail sentence for murder longer than what it currently is would you complain? no because it isn't going to affect you (hopefully). all that is happening here is that the police, main roads and the government are trying to crack down on people breaking the law. ultimately whether it stops crashes doesn't really come into it. they just use it as an excuse. but the real thing here is, people are breaking the law and being punished for it. a lot of people just don't really see speeding as breaking the law and therefore don't think that they should be punished.

[Nee-san]

yes talking about the cooroy (end of 110kmh section) to gympie stretch of road. the 90kmh bit goes on a bit past gympie (you may know that though). the actual road from here to cooroy isn't that bad, but the idiots that drive on it are, and yet a lot of the blame gets put on the road. a lot of the accidents have been caused by servere driver error or not driving to the conditions.

From what I have heard you are correct in that it is mainly driving error, I've also heard driver fatigue is a big one along that stretch.

and i understand the revenue raising bit is what annoys everyone, but the fact is that there seems to be a small perception difference between having a high police presence on the road and setting up an automated machine to do a similar thing. part of me thinks that all speed cameras should be painted neon pink so that people know that they are there and slow down. but the problem is that then they will only slow down for that short section of road then speed back up again. this is where the covert speed cameras come into play. they catch the people who are generally habitual speeders. unfortunately most of these just keep on speeding even after recieving the fine, and no amount of speed cameras or police presence on the road will slow them down until they have lost their licence, and then once they get it back it will start over.

You have outlined how ineffective the covert speed camera program is at reducing habitual offenders, So I ask, if the government is really serious about this why keep using such an ineffective method ... ?

What it comes down to is that people must be taught what driving to the conditions entails through an extreme and intensive driving training program coupled with the tightening of requirements for having a drivers licence.

Another simple solution is to relax the legislation surrounding speeding and give offences such as dangerous driving a wider range of interpretation.

This way, the courts would then be relieved of the pressure of frivolos case loads and could concentrate on removing the truly dangerous people from our roads.

the general argument against speed cameras is the same as the argument that always pops up after traffic fines are increased. "it's just revenue raising". but to be honest it isn't really. it's not like they are forcing som involuntary tax unpon us, or are raising the price of something. it's not like we have no choice in the matter. we have all the choice in the world on this. anyone complaining needs to look at it a different way. you are complaining about the punishment for someone breaking the law. if they made the minimum jail sentence for murder longer than what it currently is would you complain? no because it isn't going to affect you (hopefully). all that is happening here is that the police, main roads and the government are trying to crack down on people breaking the law. ultimately whether it stops crashes doesn't really come into it. they just use it as an excuse. but the real thing here is, people are breaking the law and being punished for it. a lot of people just don't really see speeding as breaking the law and therefore don't think that they should be punished.

I think this just highlights how disenchanted the public is with the current laws and their enforcement, to what level will non compliance have to reach before the government actually begins to take the approach that maybe it is the legislation which needs work and not the tax paying public, as for the comparison with murder the two issues are so legally and morally different that its use as an example is pretty limited.

Cheers,

Mitch.

[Peter89]

Peter if you don't like revenue then move to Somalia they have a GREAT tax system i hear

seriously though... it wouldn't raise THAT much revenue, it's more a deterrant! put it this way - if the state government actually relied on the revenue of speeding fines we would be a very un-developed nation...

i'm not going to argue or debate with you because you've raised valid points and so have i... let's just agree to disagree!

grow up for fk sake. its a democracy not a dictatorship in Australia. the whole point of petitions is to CHANGE the laws. just because there's a system now doesn't mean it cant be improved.

i'm unlikely to move anywhere, instead ill use my freedom to encourage people to change their views and ask for a better system.

-more well trained police.

-visible cameras

though i do understand the petition is asking for something different, i think anything is better then the current system.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Peter89

[Jpower]

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/St...as-t329779.html

[Jpower]

+1 for no. especially the fixed cameras. everyone knows where they are, they are common knowledge, so if you still get caught by them then stiff shit. and besides, for that short period of road where the speed camera is people will slow down.

as for red light cameras, i have no issue with them. while they might not save lives, they are catching people who are running lights and could possibly cause an accident. i've never run a red light, but i've almost been taken out by someone who did. unfortunately there was no camera at that set of lights so he didn't get caught.

Maybe you should look at the bigger picture...

http://camerafraud.wordpress.com/why/

[Cassbo]

I really don't understand how people can complain about the law enforcement and not the law itself...

I personally think it's great that this system is being re-introduced, won't affect me much as I drive with the mindset of "if I'm prepared to break the law, I'm prepaired to face the consequences" Luckily I hate facing consequences

I do think it's wrong that when speed limits are reviewed they always are decreased, regardless of decreased number of accidents or increased vehicle safety.

[xALmoN]

I drive past these mobile speed camera cars with my finger out of the window, doing under the speed limit of course.

[Harey]

While trying to stay on topic, I think our focus should be on the excessive defecting of our cars. I agree with alot of the defects they are pinning us for, but recently read posts about stock BOV's getting pinged? I know that in the long run those defects will clear without ANY hassles, but they are still grinding everyone's gears, costs us money, all for something that can be fixed with a little education.

I don't actually know anybody who blatantly runs red lights. But the fact these cameras exist would suggest otherwise.

How is excessive defecting of cars on topic??

If its simple to do the stupidly slow speed limits, how hard is it not to mod your car??

So your suggesting that red light cameras are ONLY out to get drivers that blatantly runs red lights?? Yup the government really care how they get their cash...

[Harey]

grow up for fk sake. its a democracy not a dictatorship in Australia. the whole point of petitions is to CHANGE the laws. just because there's a system now doesn't mean it cant be improved.

i'm unlikely to move anywhere, instead ill use my freedom to encourage people to change their views and ask for a better system.

-more well trained police.

-visible cameras

though i do understand the petition is asking for something different, i think anything is better then the current system.

+1

I think driver training is a huge issue in Australia. Driving is a complex task and as long as the government tries to solve the problem with simple fixes such as 'slow down' the road toll will not drop and the problem will remain.

I saw a learner driver doing 20km/h under the limit in the right hand lane of a 4 lane freeway the other day, I wonder what other great driving tips this parent is providing.

How long till a strategy is classed as "FAILED"?

Why do we not look at other successful examples of road systems around the world?

[Harey]

yes talking about the cooroy (end of 110kmh section) to gympie stretch of road. the 90kmh bit goes on a bit past gympie (you may know that though). the actual road from here to cooroy isn't that bad, but the idiots that drive on it are, and yet a lot of the blame gets put on the road. a lot of the accidents have been caused by servere driver error or not driving to the conditions.

From what I have heard you are correct in that it is mainly driving error, I've also heard driver fatigue is a big one along that stretch.

and i understand the revenue raising bit is what annoys everyone, but the fact is that there seems to be a small perception difference between having a high police presence on the road and setting up an automated machine to do a similar thing. part of me thinks that all speed cameras should be painted neon pink so that people know that they are there and slow down. but the problem is that then they will only slow down for that short section of road then speed back up again. this is where the covert speed cameras come into play. they catch the people who are generally habitual speeders. unfortunately most of these just keep on speeding even after recieving the fine, and no amount of speed cameras or police presence on the road will slow them down until they have lost their licence, and then once they get it back it will start over.

You have outlined how ineffective the covert speed camera program is at reducing habitual offenders, So I ask, if the government is really serious about this why keep using such an ineffective method ... ?

What it comes down to is that people must be taught what driving to the conditions entails through an extreme and intensive driving training program coupled with the tightening of requirements for having a drivers licence.

Another simple solution is to relax the legislation surrounding speeding and give offences such as dangerous driving a wider range of interpretation.

This way, the courts would then be relieved of the pressure of frivolos case loads and could concentrate on removing the truly dangerous people from our roads.

the general argument against speed cameras is the same as the argument that always pops up after traffic fines are increased. "it's just revenue raising". but to be honest it isn't really. it's not like they are forcing som involuntary tax unpon us, or are raising the price of something. it's not like we have no choice in the matter. we have all the choice in the world on this. anyone complaining needs to look at it a different way. you are complaining about the punishment for someone breaking the law. if they made the minimum jail sentence for murder longer than what it currently is would you complain? no because it isn't going to affect you (hopefully). all that is happening here is that the police, main roads and the government are trying to crack down on people breaking the law. ultimately whether it stops crashes doesn't really come into it. they just use it as an excuse. but the real thing here is, people are breaking the law and being punished for it. a lot of people just don't really see speeding as breaking the law and therefore don't think that they should be punished.

I think this just highlights how disenchanted the public is with the current laws and their enforcement, to what level will non compliance have to reach before the government actually begins to take the approach that maybe it is the legislation which needs work and not the tax paying public, as for the comparison with murder the two issues are so legally and morally different that its use as an example is pretty limited.

Cheers,

Mitch.

Great post!

[Jpower]

You do realize that they use tax payers money to purchase these so called safety cameras / speed cameras. Then they go on to ping people.

Enough of the argument that if you don't speed you don't get fined. Seriously, no one can say that they have ever sped or were speeding.

There are plenty of known black spots etc. BUT a camera does not solve the problem, it only masks the problem...