R33gts-t Brake Setup Options For Track Use

[Victory]

Some of you may be aware that I am building another R33 GTS-T that will be track orientated (read as "cheap shell fast becoming costly exercise").

The car does not have ABS and this is my preference going forward not to install ABS.

I have just picked up a very good BM57 master cylinder and booster from a R33 GTR and I am looking to convert it to non ABS. Is there a "T" piece that you can fit to the master cylinder to run the two front lines from the single master cylinder outlet?

I am looking at going down the Brembo brake path instead of going for a "full-on track only application" as this should provide adequate braking for my skill level. I am looking at using R33 GTR rear Brembo calipers.

For the front I have been looking at options as the R33 GTR front calipers are restrictive in the availability and price of pads. It would appear that front Brembo's from an Evo can be easily mounted on a R33 with readily available mounting plates. The pads are larger than on a R33 GTR and more universal as they are used by a range of other vehicles.

The other issue is brake bias if I mix and match Brembo's - with Evo calipers will the bias still be correct or will I have to look at installing a bias adjuster for the rears?

Rather than re-invent the wheel I would like some advice for people who have already been down this path to confirm that I am on the right track.

[Roy]

The EVO calipers only take a 320mm rotor and the pistons are much bigger then the GTR Brembo meaning you will be heavily front biased

[Kaido_RR]

Some of you may be aware that I am building another R33 GTS-T that will be track orientated (read as "cheap shell fast becoming costly exercise").

The car does not have ABS and this is my preference going forward not to install ABS.

I have just picked up a very good BM57 master cylinder and booster from a R33 GTR and I am looking to convert it to non ABS. Is there a "T" piece that you can fit to the master cylinder to run the two front lines from the single master cylinder outlet?

I am looking at going down the Brembo brake path instead of going for a "full-on track only application" as this should provide adequate braking for my skill level. I am looking at using R33 GTR rear Brembo calipers.

For the front I have been looking at options as the R33 GTR front calipers are restrictive in the availability and price of pads. It would appear that front Brembo's from an Evo can be easily mounted on a R33 with readily available mounting plates. The pads are larger than on a R33 GTR and more universal as they are used by a range of other vehicles.

The other issue is brake bias if I mix and match Brembo's - with Evo calipers will the bias still be correct or will I have to look at installing a bias adjuster for the rears?

Rather than re-invent the wheel I would like some advice for people who have already been down this path to confirm that I am on the right track.

Run R32 GTR Vspec N1 brake master is it the same size as the rest of the gtr range but is the only gtr to run non-abs, so its just a bolt on application.

Personally i think gtr brembo or even evo brembo will be too small.... I ran AP racing 4pot (CP5200) with a 323 disc and they run a larger pad then the gtr brembo. even with brand new endless cc-rg pads and endless disc i lost my brakes after 5-6laps on the track... I do admit i am a heavy and late breaker. (it happen twice so on my next run a ease up and i didnt seem to get any fade)

Will the car be complete strip? as weight is a huge factor in picking the right brake setup.

There are alot of brake opinions out their and you will find most places will make pads for almost any brembo or aftermarket caliper.

If you want the most simple method, buy R33 or R34 Brembo bolt them on get some good pads and disc and it should be more than enough if you learn how to use the brakes right (unlike me, i have a habit of extremely late braking due to my gran turismo days lol)

[R31Nismoid]

^ depends how much you want.

For cost & value, 5-6 flying laps @ a club sprit day is pretty damn good.

[evil_weevil]

Charles,

Ryan (BOZ22N) has R33 GTR brembo's up front. I went in his car for a session yesterday and felt much better than other 33's (Iincluding my old banger) with minimal upgrades.

If I had to do it all again I'd get them as an upgrade

[Marlin]

It all comes down to the weight of your car.

I run GTR Brembos all round.

2 piece alloy hat DBA5000 rotors up front and slotted rotors down back.

We use Ferodo DS3000 pads all round and Castrol R synthetic fluid with Goodrich stainless steel braid lines all round.

Master cyl is matching GTR.

No booster is used.

Pedal ratio altered from 4:1 to 6:1.

My car weighs around 1250 with me or fuel.

I couldn't ask for better brakes. Circuit sprints/Targa Tasmania, street sprints, whatever, its a fantacstic combo.

I use them hard, very hard, but the rotor's peak temperature is perfect, right within the Orange range on the heat paint on the rotor.

I drag the brakes a little on the warmup lap to obtain good temps, but also find it stops just fine when I'm not given the opportunity, say, a street sprint or hillclimb.

Highly recommended if your car is around that weight.

[FineLine]

It all comes down to the weight of your car.

I run GTR Brembos all round.

2 piece alloy hat DBA5000 rotors up front and slotted rotors down back.

We use Ferodo DS3000 pads all round and Castrol R synthetic fluid with Goodrich stainless steel braid lines all round.

Master cyl is matching GTR.

No booster is used.

Pedal ratio altered from 4:1 to 6:1.

My car weighs around 1250 with me or fuel.

I couldn't ask for better brakes. Circuit sprints/Targa Tasmania, street sprints, whatever, its a fantacstic combo.

I use them hard, very hard, but the rotor's peak temperature is perfect, right within the Orange range on the heat paint on the rotor.

I drag the brakes a little on the warmup lap to obtain good temps, but also find it stops just fine when I'm not given the opportunity, say, a street sprint or hillclimb.

Highly recommended if your car is around that weight.

Agreed; I used 33gtr brems on my gtst with an upgraded master cylinder and some good pads and fluid.

Admittedly i only run time attack sprints but I never had one issue with them even under the hardest braking.

Too many "experts" are too quick to write off the gtr brembos as rubbish, I'll back them over the sumi's any day.

[lsf_bootz]

Ive got Porsche Cayenne 6-piston brembos for sale they should pull u up.

Edited July 19, 2010 by lsf_bootz

[sav man]

I just learnt a top gear top tip for people going to unassisted brake pedals. You can buy a bolt on unassisted m/c from subaru (group n parts), and the skyline and impressa have the same mount pattern. I'm not sure if it lifts the master cylinder up to correct the pedal ratio.

[Victory]

Thanks for all of the great responses - I should provide some background info on where I am at with my build.

I recently obtained a R33 Series 1.5 from a friend with superficial damage to the front after he put it through a fence. It is currently in my mates panel shop (refer to my signature) undergoing repairs.

We are converting it to a Series II with all new panels, lights etc in front of the windscreen and a full respray except for the roof. In addition I was able to buy a GTR boot lid with a genuine Nissan N1 wing blade just to finish it off. I also have a complete GTR front for it (just in case I get serious in the future) so we have also painted that to match at the same time.

In the initial build the car will be road registered as a Series II so it will be heavy compared to a dedicated track car.

Mods completed or in the process of being installed:

Engine – high flowed turbo, Power FC with boost controller, Nismo injectors, spitfires, oil management head mods, larger baffled sump, oil cooler, split dump, high flow cat and HKS Preist exhaust.

Running gear – Bilstein B16 PSS9 coilovers with 8kg front and 7kg rear springs, complete R33 GTR rear cradle and diff (to beef up the rear end and accept the shocks), standard suspension arms with adjustable bushes, Whiteline 24mm front and 22mm rear sway bars. Rims - Enkei NT03 in 18 x8 and 18x9 shod in Yokahama A048 in 235/40R18’s.

Interior – full Series II interior, OMP WRC seat, 6 point harnesses, GTR cluster with 300 km Nismo speedo.

The initial focus is on building a car that handles well, that is reliable and with good midrange power to make it as driveable as possible.

I have had lot of conflicting information on what sort of brakes I should run as the stock GTS-T brakes may now be the weakest part of the overall package.

Kaido_RR

"Run R32 GTR Vspec N1 brake master is it the same size as the rest of the gtr range but is the only gtr to run non-abs, so its just a bolt on application."

This was my original preference but these are hard to find so I ended up with a BM57 from a R33 GTR

Roy

"The EVO calipers only take a 320mm rotor and the pistons are much bigger then the GTR Brembo meaning you will be heavily front biased"

Brake bias is one of my main concerns when you go for one of the larger front caliper options as it will make it heavily front biased - something that you then cannot manage with a bias adjuster on the rear brakes.

I really did not want to go down the AP Racing or similar brake upgrades as it is hard to justify the additional costs and set up development to come up with a reliable package as opposed to using a proven solution.

evil_weevil

"Ryan (BOZ22N) has R33 GTR brembo's up front. I went in his car for a session yesterday and felt much better than other 33's (Iincluding my old banger) with minimal upgrades.

If I had to do it all again I'd get them as an upgrade"

Chubbs - my car will have similar performance to your old car and what Ryan has done and your impression of it confirms that R33 Brembo's are a good solution.

Marlin

Your comments are exactly what I was looking for as your experiences are proof that this solution does really work in a range of track situations.

My only remaining problem is obtaining a suitable "T" piece for the front brake lines to convert my master cylinder to non ABS. Any options in this regard would be appreciated.

Thanks again for all of your comments

[Kaido_RR]

Kaido_RR

"Run R32 GTR Vspec N1 brake master is it the same size as the rest of the gtr range but is the only gtr to run non-abs, so its just a bolt on application."

This was my original preference but these are hard to find so I ended up with a BM57 from a R33 GTR

My only remaining problem is obtaining a suitable "T" piece for the front brake lines to convert my master cylinder to non ABS. Any options in this regard would be appreciated.

Thanks again for all of your comments

If you are interested i have the R32 GTR Vspec2 N1 Brake master from my track car (done 1,663km) for sale for $400 as i am parting out my track car.

However if you want one brand new Nissan can supply you one, the Perth nissan dealer had it in stock when i bought mine (if i remember right it was $500-$550 brand new). I can supply the part number if needed as there are alot of different ones and only 2 will fit a non-abs skyline.

Also if i was you, i would look at just buying the GTR brembo (go for the R33 as they seem to be cheaper and are same as r34 apart from the r34 using a large bolt meaning you need to tap your hubs), without the disc or pads and then you are able to pick the best.

Also get a set of braided brake lines as they do make a differences.

Pad wise i like the Endless cc-rg however they do eat disc, if you are hard on the brakes. but they have an awesome bit right from the get go and work up to 800 degrees.

ps i have my ap setup for sale too however at the price 2.5k, you are better off just going the brembos

[badhairdave]

My only remaining problem is obtaining a suitable "T" piece for the front brake lines to convert my master cylinder to non ABS. Any options in this regard would be appreciated.

Thanks again for all of your comments

I got mine from these guys

http://www.mscn.com.au/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=431

second one down is the one you want. You'll also need a short hard line or braided line. I got a braided one when i did mine as i thought it would give me a bit of flexibility in positioning but i'd probably get a 150mm bit of hard line if i were to do it again. 1/10th the price and road legal. You could probably get the same from any brake shop.

On the brake choices, for a lightish car doing 10 lap dashes the brembos aren't really a big step up over the sumitomos. The tyre is still the limiting factor on how quick you can pull up, the rotor is going to be more prone to heat soak than the larger brembo one but that is easily offset by running a better pad and wont hurt you on short sprints.

For a budget car i would be spending money elsewhere, like oil cooler, radiator, some adjustable suspension bits

[Victory]

I got mine from these guys

http://www.mscn.com.au/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=431

second one down is the one you want. You'll also need a short hard line or braided line. I got a braided one when i did mine as i thought it would give me a bit of flexibility in positioning but i'd probably get a 150mm bit of hard line if i were to do it again. 1/10th the price and road legal. You could probably get the same from any brake shop.

Thanks Dave that is the exact part that I need and as I already have a good master cylinder I should try and make what I already have work.

I have recently purchased a new alloy radiator, an oil cooler and a full set of adjustable suspension bushes and I am trying to do all of the basic things right the first time.

I am looking at using the adjustable sway bar settings and the shock adjustments as my way of fine tuning the cars handling (following Sydneykids approach to easy setup adjustments).

[R31Nismoid]

Just a bit of FYI - I was talking to Mick from MiColour out of interest from this thread - they run a R32 GTS-t track car, not majorly stripped or anything... Usual interior removal + cage, 250-260rwkw and a host of suspension upgrades.

Either R32 or R33-t brakes on it, thats it. Good pads/rotors/fluid of course. Cannot fault it on the sprint days with 5-6 laps of flat out.

If you lighten the R33 with a GTR bonnet and similar weight reductions (easy ones interior wise etc) then you should be fairly close.

GTR brembo's IMO are not worth the money people charge for them when you take other options into account.

I mean you can get the porka massive 6-pots over the counter for like $700 or something ea which are leagues better than a GTR brembo given rotor options as a result

K-Sport 8-pot brand new KITS (calipers/356mm rotor/pad/mounting leg/lines) come in i believe around $2500-2700 from the US

vs

GTR brembo kit (324mm rotor/pads/lines etc) would be what, $1400-1900 depending and that is 2nd hand.

All comes down to cost and what justifies what... Q - What is the overall budget for the brake upgrade?

Too many "experts" are too quick to write off the gtr brembos as rubbish, I'll back them over the sumi's any day.

They are mainly rubbish based on a cost vs gain basis.

The overall piston area & so on (Sumi vs Brembo skyline issue) is not that big when you look at how much more you can get in performance wise vs the cost it's not that impressive

Then also take into account if you get similar things off porka cup cars/race teams (pads/rotors etc) 2nd hand stuff and so on that massively reduces costs for club level stuff even if initial expenditure is a little bit more - it is offset nicely over the life of the vehicle if you intend to track it for 3-4 years.

All depends on how much you pickup the brembo's for of course - so im talking "average" resale costs here rather than a mates rate wheel'n'deal where they cost next to nothing in which case they become a good value option if nice and cheap

[Roy]

I am pretty sure Mick/Tims car runs a spacer to accomodate 324mm rotors. They also run tyres which dont have a lot of grip which means you tend to lock the wheel before putting uber heat into the braking system.

So many different options, i sugges you go shopping with your eyes open and buy whatever represents good value to you at the time. Hell, if you are keen to try some Endless knock offs then i have a brand new KTS kit that uses 330mm rotor that you can have for $1500. I bought it as it was an ex display kit and cheap. I was curious to see how good the Endless knock off 6 pot caliper is. It looks reasonable and the equiv to the Ksport/G4 kits etc, though arguably better as they are ripping off a known good design of caliper.

If you can pick up a used set of R33 Brembos with good rotors and pads for $1200 or so then they are a good upgrade. If you are paying $1600 and the rotors are original and shagged and the pads cheap Bendix then they are not so great value.

So, just keep an eye out for what appears to be the best value...dont rule out just buying a good 324mm rotor and bracketing your rotor out, though i do not prefer this approach when using the R33 caliper, the brackets are not as sturdy as when you use the R32 caliper

[R31Nismoid]

Ye they are running 324's, same as you would with a Brembo - So goes to show it's not just caliper as i said above, the difference isn't that major for the major price differential given R33-t calipers cost fk all, brembo's are what, 800 more?

You certainly don't see that % of gain vs the cost like you would a K-sport kit over the brembo which is another 800 but you without question get a good value upgrade for that 800 vs what is largely mediocre paying 800 more for GTR brembo (over stock)

Ah you should see the car now Bris - It's had some major suspension love, MUCH more grip on it now

[Marlin]

Yeah my 32 GTS-t had GTR Sumitomos (w/- Endless) on it when I got it and was fine for 5 to 6 laps of Winton, but after that started to lose pedal consistancy.

So, for around $2k fitted (incl NEW front rotors/pads and second hand alloy hats) I had the entire Brembo package on it front and rear.

I wanted it for piece of mind for one particular stage at targa Tasmania that is particularly hard on brakes where it performed perfectly.

[trez]

Yeah my 32 GTS-t had GTR Sumitomos (w/- Endless) on it when I got it and was fine for 5 to 6 laps of Winton, but after that started to lose pedal consistancy.

So, for around $2k fitted (incl NEW front rotors/pads and second hand alloy hats) I had the entire Brembo package on it front and rear.

I wanted it for piece of mind for one particular stage at targa Tasmania that is particularly hard on brakes where it performed perfectly.

What are you refering to when you say 'second hand alloy hats'?

[Marlin]

The gold piece peeking through Pete (two piece front rotor);

[trez]

The gold piece peeking through Pete (two piece front rotor);

oh yep....thanks.

Good to see the brembos have the bleeder on the outside, nice and accessible.