Need Advice - Got Done On Bus Lane/t-way

[siddr20]

Hi,

So this is my first ever driving offense in 6 years of driving. So i got a letter yesterday stating i drove in a bus lane, on warringah freeway, north sydney, between high st and mount st.

But i swear, i didnt know i was on there and did not do it on purpose. Im really not familiar with that area at all and i think it was my first time in that area. I also got done at 11pm. So its not like I was driving during the day time, and i could see busses around and I was a smart ass and followed it.

Now the fine is 253 bucks, which i think is expensive for a honest mistake. But what is getting me angry is that its 3 demerit points taken off. 3 points!!!!!!!!!!!

Is this normal??

So i want to take this to court.

Has anyone here been in a similar situation? Did you take it to court? Whats the procedure? What happens in court? Do i just represent myself? Or do i have to pay for a lawer to be there?

So i have never been in this situation before, so any help is greatful.

Yes if i got done for speeding i would cop it on the chin, but this was a honest mistake and 3 points taken off is BS!!

Ta,

[NISMO]

Maybe a letter first requesting a bit of leniancy?

taking it to court can be expensive, especially if they have a pic of you in the lane, as really your court case will basically be, "please be kind, it was a mistake"

[GTR-N1]

Writing a letter AND QUICKLY may help as Bobby suggested.

If you need to word it correctly, perhaps contact Abo Bob or any other law firms on the "Traffic Lawyer" thread.

Even though you may possibly get the fine rescinded, the points may not.

Even though the Police and the RTA are in 'bed' with one another, the RTA is an animal unto itself.

[siddr20]

I just wrote them a letter. So will wait for the response and let you all know how it goes.

[JAS-25T]

Don't bother taking it to court, it will cost you far to much time and energy.

I know from experience in a case where I actually had evidence.

pleading ignorance will not get you anywhere, unless of course you have a very expensive lawyer.

[Bourbon Boy]

Last year, my Dad gone done for accidentally driving into a T-Way...

He did a U turn to exit after realising his mistake.

Got the letter in the mail saying that he'd been snapped twice!

Called and wrote a letter and yeah, they cancelled one ticket. But not the other... so yeah, What NISMO and Terry said.

[t5iv]

Take it to court, quickly and plead guilty with an explanation and request a section 10.

Basically, first time offence, I know I F-ed up, I'm sorry, we cool?

Then they look at your record, all good see ya.

[t5iv]

Maybe a letter first requesting a bit of leniancy?

taking it to court can be expensive, especially if they have a pic of you in the lane, as really your court case will basically be, "please be kind, it was a mistake"

That's exactly what a section 10 is.

Sorry mate, skimmed past your post.

But if in all honesty, it is a first time error, esp in 6 years -> go for it!

It's a sly little loop hole a few mates and i discovered in law school.

Had it checked out by lawyers and it's all kocher

[Owgasm]

Is the lane a bus lane 24/7?

We have some bus lanes here that are only between peak hours and during working business days.

6-9am and 4-7pm I think it is from one of the signs I remember seeing.

[GTR R35]

I am fairly sure a Section 10 will still lose 3 points.

Unless your charges are dismissed, you will lose points, even when you win.

You need to apply to the RTA to have the points dropped on a win, but a S10 means case proven no fine but cop the points.

From Armstrong Legal

Section 10 Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act -

Avoiding a Criminal record

Normally, when you plead guilty to a criminal or traffic offence the Court imposes a penalty and records a conviction. If the court records a conviction you will have a criminal record. In traffic matters this may also include a loss of license. However, if we were able to convince the Court not to convict you, there would be no penalty, no loss of licence, and no criminal record. In all Criminal and Traffic Law cases a Court has the discretion not to convict you but deal with you under the terms of section 10.

What is a “section 10”

The expression “section10” refers to section 10 of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999. This section allows a Court that finds you guilty of an offence, to discharge you without recording a conviction. Because there is no conviction, there is no criminal record. Additionally, there is no loss of drivers license and no other penalty.

Types of section 10's.

There are three types of section 10s:

Outright dismissal – Section 10(1)(a)

Conditional dismissal with a good behaviour bond - Section 10(1)(b)

Conditional dismissal with a rehabilitation course – Section 10(1)©

Outright dismissal – Section 10(1)(a)

An outright dismissal under section 10 involves the court dismissing the offence without any conditions. The matter is completely over as soon as you walk out of the Court room.

Conditional dismissal with a good behaviour bond - Section 10(1)(b)

A Court can dismiss a charge under s10, but at the same time put you on a good behaviour bond for up to 2 years. The bond can have any conditions which the Court wants you to abide by. At a minimum these include :

That you be of good behaviour (that is, that you do not commit any further offences)

That you advise the Court of any change of address and

That you appear before the Court if called upon to do so

If you breach any conditions of the bond, the Court can call you up before it, revoke the bond and impose a different sentence for the offence. This is the most popular way that a court deals with an offender under section 10.

Section 10- with intervention program

This refers to a section 10 which is conditional on you entering an intervention program of some kind (such as the Traffic Offenders program), completing that program successfully and complying with any action plan that results from that program.

How to avoid a criminal record?

Courts do not give out section10’s easily. Normally a Courts will need a lot of convincing before granting you a section 10. The law says that in deciding whether to give a person a section 10, the Court must consider the following issues:

Your age, character, record, health and mental condition.

The trivial nature of the offence.

Any extenuating circumstances

Anything else the Court think is relevant.

Honest and Expert advice

Things you may not have hard about a section 10

Because of its huge benefits, section 10 is perhaps the best known section in the whole of the Criminal Law. Just about anyone, from all kinds of lawyers to your friends and work colleagues may tell you all sorts of things about section 10s.

Unfortunately, section 10 is also perhaps the most widely misunderstood law. As the saying goes : “a little knowledge can be dangerous”. Here are some facts about a section 10 which you may not have been told about (or may have been told the wrong information):

1. If you get a section 10 with a bond, it will appear on your criminal record for the duration of the bond. While section 10 itself expressly says that it is not a conviction, under the Criminal Records Act 1991, a section 10 is actually defined as a conviction that becomes spent (that is, extinguished) as soon as the bond is finished. This means that if you need to show a clean criminal record in the near future (for example if you are about to apply for a job or travel overseas) you really need to obtain an outright section 10.

2. If you have committed a traffic offence which attracts demerit points, and you are worried about the loss of license, a section 10 will not help. The RTA will still impose the demerit points even if you get a section 10.

3. For certain traffic offences, you can not get more than one section 10’s within a period of 5 years.

4. After you get a section10, (with some limited exceptions) you do not have to disclose it to your employer or anyone else- even if they ask specifically about them. More and more employers these days are getting smarter about the way in which they ask questions about criminal history in job applications. Many ask not just about convictions, but also about sections 10s or “findings of guilt” (a section 10 is still a finding of guilt). Many people presume that if a question like this is asked, you have to answer it honestly and disclose any previous section 10s.

This may not necessarily be the correct approach. Section 12 of the Criminal Records Act 1991 says that you do not need to disclose a “spent conviction” to any one for any purpose. Because that act also defines a section 10 as a “spent conviction”, it can be argued that even if an employer asks you a direct question about any previous section 10’s or ‘findings of guilt”, you do not have to disclose these as long as any section10 bond has expired.

At this stage there is no decided cases as to what the correct position is. This article should not be construed as legal advice, it simply raises an argument that may or may not be endorsed by a court.

Edited July 21, 2010 by GTR R35

[Big Unit]

I have been in a similiar situation. Bit of a long story. A customer had skipped a service by 50 odd thousand k's and we had been trying to flush the motor and clean out all the sludge. Any way car leaves and about 10 minutes later we get a call saying the vehicles oil warning light has come on. The customer want's us to have the car towed back can we come out give her a lift home and take the keys to the car.

It was 5 o'clock and got asked to go if I could so I leave in the service mobile. Waiting at a red light behind a bus to turn right on to military rd in cremorne i look through the map to see where Im going. Light goes green I follow the bus round the corner 150m later a cop flags me over. I put down the window and he asks me if I've realised that i went through a no right hand turn during specific hours. I said no. Also in my haste to leave i forgot to put my p plates on. I explain my situation and i am still issued 2 fines of $189 and 4 points.

I appeal to the state debt recovery office explaining my situation and with a letter from the dealer principle. They said no and if i wanted to take it further i would have to take it to court. I had a consultation with a traffic lawyer and he basicly said it would cost more to take it court than it was worth. So i paid the fines and took the points. Any way just my 2 cents.

[t5iv]

In my younger days, when I had gthe dirty s13, we can all assume what occured.

Numerous times I travelled to court and pleaded dfor section 10.

s10 1 a is the most common and only in wavering situations are the others even considered.

Now, if the case is dismissed outright, then how is it possible to attract demerit points or any other form of fine.

You have been basically let off.

This is one of those issues that's a bit here and there.

My best suggestion is to call a few solicitors and speak to them directly.

The only time s10 1b and 1c apply is if the magistrate is a wnker or they dont like you.

Other than that, the client has claimed and has evidence to prove the fact that he has not had any incidents in over 5 years of active driving, and he is not a reckless immature p plater, hence your honor, it has been made apparent to the court that he was in an unfamiliar area and unaware of the conditions. This combined with the fact that it was very late in the evening demonstrates that he was not intentionally commiting an offence. To elaborate on this, being in an unknown area near midnight, he was navigating the roads carefully and ensuring that he was maintaining the speed limit, a moments lapse of judgement resulted in him failing to notice the Bus Lane sign, until it was too late. According to my clients claims, he was unware that the area was a bus lane until a few weeks later when he received the notification of the incident. Being a man of upmost charecter, as his references demonstrate, he returned to the area whilst the sun was up and noted that it was infact a bus lane. Now your honor, my client has pleaded guilty and has not attempted to pull the wool over the court's eyes and has ensured that he is present at the time of the hearing. Being that this is his first offence in over 5 years, and that he is a responsible person, I do plea to the court to grant a s10 1a. Thank you, your honor.

Ahh, miss law classes.

[t5iv]

A 'section 10 dismissal' refers to the power of the magistrate hearing your case to find you guilty but to discharge you without recording a conviction. You will only be successful in your application for such a dismissal if your offence is relatively minor. Further, in many cases the magistrate will make the dismissal conditional upon you entering into a good behaviour bond. Ask your solicitor whether application for a dismissal would be appropriate in your case.

From: http://www.criminal-lawyer.com.au/drinking...ingoffences.asp

[oweban]

From: http://www.criminal-lawyer.com.au/drinking...ingoffences.asp

Hmm.. having read that, that annoys me. It kinda says to someone reading it, oh, you got done for midrange drink driving? That's fine, we'll go for S10.

No, f**k you (not you, Tony, the people who wanna try for that). Drink driving should be slammed; it's a very deliberate act. You've been drinking? Don't drive. Simple as that. Speeding or in this case the bus lane can be a lapse of judgement or being unfamiliar with the area...

</tanty rant>

EDIT:: Having said that, when I got booked for speeding I copped it sweet cause I knew I was in the wrong. Although mine was a bit more than just accidentally drifting 5km/h or so over the limit.

Hope it goes well for you siddr.

[t5iv]

Drink driving is an intentional crime. You should be locked up for that.

Other things such as, cruising down say parra road and you slip up to 65kph or what not with general flow of traffic, thats where the s10 should be applied.

At the end, it's in the hands of the presiding magistrate.

[oweban]

Absolutely agree with you Tony. Small slipups should have some form of lenience.

Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest after reading about S10 on that site regarding drink driving. There should be some kind of "if you are caught drink driving do NOT try and plead S10 because you'll get assraped and you're an idiot for doing it" in big font at the top of that page. No sympathy.

[JohnWaugh]

Sorry to here this happens with you. If you were driving with drinking its really really bad, Off course 253 bucks is quite expansive but taking it to court will be more expensive. Hope you get rid off all these soon.

[t5iv]

Court fees arent that bad if its solved at first instance, which is what i'd be looking for.

looking at *from memory* couple of hundred. But the other option is 3 points.

[mattymagoo22]

There was an old fella at the pub the other day, on the way to the hospital at Westmead he drove in the T-WAY 4 times through a camera while trying to get to his appointment. Hew got 4 fines and lost his license. He wrote to his member for parliament and explained the situation and got off 'scott free' as he put it. Never mind that the silly old bugger couldn't read or understand traffic conditions and probably shouldn't have a license. You could give that a try.

[gwin]

From knowledge it should be 1 point $183 bucks....

Sounds more like a speeding fine??