Incredibly Scary Experience.

[CeJay]

To anyone reading the above, please ignore anything said in the quoted post.

In any scenario where the car starts to oversteer the safest method is to jump on the brakes. Any driver instructor will say the exact same thing. Last thing we want is a bunch of people thinking i'll try and power out of this mess and end up in more problems.

What a rally driver may have said cannot be applied to on-road scenarios as they are completely different. (having done a rally driving course, the goal is to jump on the brakes to shift weight forward and then turn and power, making the front drive wheels pull the rally car through the corner whilst the rear oversteers. This obviously will not work in a rwd car, whereby counter-steering is involved etc)

By steering and powering in a rwd car, you are only continuing the oversteer and any regular driver will just end up spinning out quicker.

Strongly suggest driver training for anyone owning an import and not mention hearsay for the safety of others.

When I went to a defensive driving course, they told me I should counter steer out of the slide. What is going to happen once you put on the brakes? The front end of the car is going to go down slightly and the rear of the car is going to maybe go a tad higher. Weight is going to transfer to the front of the car. Where are you going to have more weight and traction? The front of the car. Seems pretty counter intuitive to me.

That being said the best thing for people to do is a defensive driving course and not listen to people on the net. My instructor said you may be able to correct the oversteer on the skidpan, but in a lot of real life situations you don't have 4 lanes worth of road to correct it, and you can end up in a tree in real life when you run out of road.

[some_cs_student]

When I went to a defensive driving course, they told me I should counter steer out of the slide. What is going to happen once you put on the brakes? The front end of the car is going to go down slightly and the rear of the car is going to maybe go a tad higher. Weight is going to transfer to the front of the car. Where are you going to have more weight and traction? The front of the car. Seems pretty counter intuitive to me.

That being said the best thing for people to do is a defensive driving course and not listen to people on the net. My instructor said you may be able to correct the oversteer on the skidpan, but in a lot of real life situations you don't have 4 lanes worth of road to correct it, and you can end up in a tree in real life when you run out of road.

What defensive driving school did you go to?

Braking makes sense, in any ABS equipped car the braking will allow you to continue to steer. It may seem counter intuitive but its something you should have been doing on your advanced driving course.

In a non-ABS equipped car you get on / off the brakes to correct your steering direction and back on the brakes again (and hard0.

If you didn't, go with driver dynamics for an advanced driving course next time

P.S. I've applied the "brake" theory when spinning out on a track at high speed, it definitely works

If I tried to counter steer I had a 50-50 chance of making it or going a long way off the track

[greensa14]

I did a defensive driving course at Sandown it was over ten years ago now. Before hoon laws for in force. The guys let us have a little burnout comp. lol.

It was great to learn how ya car reacts under hard braking in the wet etc.

When i first bought my S14 (first turbo car) coming onto the Eastern Fwy around the bend hit boost and the back came out and scared the sh*t out of me.

In the wet my car is a nighmare. Coilovers or stiff suspension and boost is not a good mix on wet roads.

[CeJay]

Meh I'll listen to my instructor

Did a quick google, as simply put I find what your saying counter intuitive, if the car is starting to over steer or the rear tyres start to lose traction are you telling me I should just go on the brakes and not counter steer? What is that going to do? Like I said it seems to me if you brake mid corner, you are going to make the rear end light, lose even more traction on the rears and be rewarded with a continued slide and loss of control. I will always try and countersteer.

See below link. In anycase if people do want to learn what do I suggest they do take a defensive driving course.

I've also tried the brake theory out on the track, maybe I wasn't gently enough but I was rewarded with a continued spin.

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/oversteer.htm

Preventing and correcting oversteer - rules of thumb

To correct any form of traction loss, you need to consider why you've exceeded the limits of grip at the wheels. In all cases of oversteer, counter steering is also required (explained here).

1. Entering the corner too fast

Enter a corner too fast and you're asking for trouble. Unless of course you have a lovely long run off to play with or if you're driving Silverstone in a go-kart. It’s not the quickest way to take a corner and leads to increased risk of oversteer. If you have entered a corner too fast, ensure that every input you make is incredibly smooth, and take the easiest route. Next time make sure you're entry speed is slow enough to maintain grip, you can build up speed as you gain experience.

2. Accelerating into the corner, too early or too aggressively

If you manage to break traction at the back when applying throttle, you're probably in a powerful car and need to be less aggressive. If you're spinning wheels, the power is not transferring to the road and you're not benefiting from the many horses you have sitting under the bonnet. Gently ease off the gas and you should regain adhesion at the rear wheels.

3. Lifting off the throttle mid-corner

If you are on the power mid-corner and close to the limit, do not lift off the throttle. The resulting forward weight transfer can upset the balance of the car and allow the rear wheels to break loose. In a front wheel drive car, re-applying the throttle can often help in this situation.

4. Braking into the corner or mid corner

You should avoid braking in corners in most situations, however there are circumstances which require the use of the anchors. Ensure braking inputs are especially smooth, gentle and progressive, and if a squirrel has just run out in front of you, try steering around rather then doing an emergency stop. To correct brake induced oversteer, smoothly (but rapidly) release the brake and adhesion should be reintroduced.

Correcting oversteer - counter steering / opposite lock (use in all scenarios)

Whatever the cause of oversteer it is important to keep the front wheels pointing in the direction you're hoping to go. If you fail to do this, the most likely result is a spin. This technique is known as counter-steering or applying opposite lock (see Diagram 3). You should apply enough steering lock to point the wheels in the direction of the slide as shown below. Too little and you're likely to spin as the back continues to come round, too much and the car will rapidly over-correct, often resulting in a spin in the opposite direction. The skill can only be mastered with plenty of practice and should become instinct if you're planning to drive fast on a track.

[Rowdy]

To anyone reading the above, please ignore anything said in the quoted post.

In any scenario where the car starts to oversteer the safest method is to jump on the brakes. Any driver instructor will say the exact same thing. Last thing we want is a bunch of people thinking i'll try and power out of this mess and end up in more problems.

What a rally driver may have said cannot be applied to on-road scenarios as they are completely different. (having done a rally driving course, the goal is to jump on the brakes to shift weight forward and then turn and power, making the front drive wheels pull the rally car through the corner whilst the rear oversteers. This obviously will not work in a rwd car, whereby counter-steering is involved etc)

By steering and powering in a rwd car, you are only continuing the oversteer and any regular driver will just end up spinning out quicker.

Strongly suggest driver training for anyone owning an import and not mention hearsay for the safety of others.

i believe the fact i said "i dunno" at the start of my post is a pretty good indication im not an expert who should be listened to- along with a request for further clarification on the topic by someone with experience- that would be you.

what you have said makes sense, and thankyou for clearing that up for all of us.

[syfon]

When I went to the AHG Skidpan course when I first got my R33 Skyline last year, the instructor told me;

"If you come into a corner and you start to oversteer, NEVER touch the break, as it will un-settle the whole car by shifting the weight to the front. Simply take your foot off the accel/brake pedal, straighten the car up and then put your foot on either the break/accel pedal after."

I have been in that situation in both the wet and dry in my Skyline where I have put my foot down a little too much and if you ever hit the break while oversteering you will un-settle the whole car. What you will find in that situation is the car will "flick" back the other way. Obviously, your natural reaction is to hit the break, but sometimes it isn't the best thing to do.

LOL La Bomba, what did you think was going to happen if you put your foot down at ~50kp/h? It would stay in 4th gear? Of course it would drop back to 2nd and the rear wheels would spin. Save your money and book yourself in for a day on a skidpan so you can learn how to handle & drive your car properly in all conditions. Trust me, it's well worth the money

[ClutchBurndout-:(]

+1 for checking the hicas, i had the same thing on my car when i hit the slippery repair lines on the roads, my ass would kick out for a split second, later found out the car was crab walking

[Bunta]

I have simple advice for the OP, dont 'floor' your car when it is 'very wet' on tyres that 'would not pass road worthy' and you will be pretty right, anything that unsettles the car suck as a big kick in the guts or a hard change from the auto because you are holding it flat will cause a loss of traction in the wet.

[SECURITY]

ive realised that with hicas and going sideways the car always felt crap (unpredictable rear end) - but i was doing well over 100km with the tires spinning. since i fitted a hicas lock bar its been fine. car goes where i want it to.

also my opinion on why the car was going side to side was a mixture of open wheeling (diff) and over correction (by you). your first instinct when you're sideways is to full-lock the steering the opposite way to correct it, but if you get a bit of traction while you're at full lock then the car goes the other way, then you do the same thing to correct that. less is more when it comes to steering correction.

[blind_elk]

In an oversteer kid, firstly apply opposite lock (turn the steering wheel in the direction of the skid), and I usually will at least back off, if not try and power out. Never brake - the tail is already moving in that direction, and braking will only exaggerate the problem, and you will likely spin out.

In an understeer skid you brake, to transfer weight onto the front wheels and re-establish grip. Although, with experience, a GT-R / GTS4 will respond to throttle and the front wheels will pull you out of the skid.

This is what works for me (with 40 years experience, including track / rally experience). An advanced driving course (not simply a defensive driving course) may teach you something slightly different.

And if you don't have any bloody tread on the tyres, then of course you are going to lose traction on a wet road!

[Samon]

When I got my P's, I did the Murcotts Defensive Driving course, and the instructor was asked about this very situation. His answer:

Remove whatever it was that caused the loss of traction. If you lost traction because of too much power, get off the throttle, if you lost traction due to being a little heave-footed on the brakes, ease off the brakes. Once you've done that, point the steering wheel in the direction that you want to be going. If you've gone past a certain angle (I can't remember the number he gave), you've lost control... the best thing to do then is to get on the brakes... you're gonna spin anyway, at least try and spin on the road, rather than sliding off and slamming into a tree.

If you're experienced enough to power out of the slide, go for it, but if not, you're most likely just going to make the situation more hairy.

[Jezza-gtR]

Aquaplanting occurs when water is trapped under the wheel and cannot escape through the tread pattern on the tyres. Due to the water not being able to flow out, it lifts the tyre off the road and hence causes loss of traction to the road.

What you said above makes no sense because aquaplanting can occur when the wheel is spinning.

Unless you have done driver defensive courses whereby the instructor has directly told you that jumping on brakes is the worst thing you can do etc (i would like to speak to him), please do not provide comments/tips on how to react in a situation because any misinformed information can severly affect people once they cross up.

I know what aqua plaining is, my post was directed at aqua plaining in a straight line. Nothing I had said has anything to do with the ass end being out.

But on the subject of the tail kicking out, I personaly would keep the power on and counter steer. But that's me, I drift so I know what to do in that kind of situation.

[Birds]

Don't floor an auto in the wet...that was your first mistake. They are too unpredictable...and this is where manuals are good...

Whenever I've been in sticky oversteer situations, stay as calm as possible...feet off the pedals...point the steering wheel where you want to go. Never failed on me and I've copped alot of these. The car will do the rest for you when the tyres regain traction on their own. If they don't regain traction then you were doing some serious speed with some serious oversteer...and probably deserve what's coming to you.

[La Bomba]

Don't floor an auto in the wet...that was your first mistake. They are too unpredictable...and this is where manuals are good...

Whenever I've been in sticky oversteer situations, stay as calm as possible...feet off the pedals...point the steering wheel where you want to go. Never failed on me and I've copped alot of these. The car will do the rest for you when the tyres regain traction on their own. If they don't regain traction then you were doing some serious speed with some serious oversteer...and probably deserve what's coming to you.

Hey guys, I'll describe exactly what happened, i floored the throttle at 40-45kmh, and i felt the rear end sink down, then i hit around 60-65kmh, (due to change to 2nd gear) i lost traction completely and the rear end suddenly flung out to the left (which means i was heading the direction of median strip to the right), i then took foot of accelerator and steered to the left, and then to say in my lane steered back to the centre direction which caused me to fish tail furthur, then i just slammed on the breaks and bogged the weight down to the front end, as i thought i could most traction by doing this (weight of the engine etc) and i came to a stop pointing dead straight.

Edited July 26, 2010 by La Bomba

[Birds]

You stopped because you eventually steered straight, not because of a weight transfer

[VB-]

ok this is going to sound like im trying to be a dick, but dont take it the wrong way:

there is nothing wrong with your car, you simply tried to drive beyond what it/you can do. i've driven plenty of shit cars, with bald tyres (and i mean through to the canvas) in the wet for weeks/months on end, and not had an issue (rear tyres only tho, i like being able to stop at will)

my opinion on driving: only seen it mentioned once so far (by birds), the BIGGEST thing to remember, in any situation, look where you want the car to go, not where your afraid of going. wherever you will look, you will naturally make the car go. *now to make myself sound like a real arrogant c*nt*: all this argument over braking/powering out of a slide is bullshit, i've been in countless situations where doing one or the other specifically was necesary. look where you want to go and you will do the rest by feel naturally *does not apply to everyone but is a good general rule*

[Basti]

To anyone reading the above, please ignore anything said in the quoted post.

In any scenario where the car starts to oversteer the safest method is to jump on the brakes. Any driver instructor will say the exact same thing. Last thing we want is a bunch of people thinking i'll try and power out of this mess and end up in more problems.

What a rally driver may have said cannot be applied to on-road scenarios as they are completely different. (having done a rally driving course, the goal is to jump on the brakes to shift weight forward and then turn and power, making the front drive wheels pull the rally car through the corner whilst the rear oversteers. This obviously will not work in a rwd car, whereby counter-steering is involved etc)

By steering and powering in a rwd car, you are only continuing the oversteer and any regular driver will just end up spinning out quicker.

Strongly suggest driver training for anyone owning an import and not mention hearsay for the safety of others.

this

When I went to a defensive driving course, they told me I should counter steer out of the slide. What is going to happen once you put on the brakes? The front end of the car is going to go down slightly and the rear of the car is going to maybe go a tad higher. Weight is going to transfer to the front of the car. Where are you going to have more weight and traction? The front of the car. Seems pretty counter intuitive to me.

That being said the best thing for people to do is a defensive driving course and not listen to people on the net. My instructor said you may be able to correct the oversteer on the skidpan, but in a lot of real life situations you don't have 4 lanes worth of road to correct it, and you can end up in a tree in real life when you run out of road.

see below

instructor's quote

guys we aren't talking sliding it around on a track. trying to power out of a slide or aquaplane in an auto skyline is asking for it if you are inexperienced and not expecting it. either do what birds said - foot off pedals (gently) and let the car settle, or do what comes naturally and stomp the brakes. if you do, eventually the front wheels will grip (we are assuming you weren't doing 120kmph) the rear will spin and the car does a tight 360 deg spin. you will stay on the road while looking stupid but you wont keep sliding into oncoming traffic/trees/small defenseless children.

[gotRICE?]

Id agree ^^

Any time my R33 has done something unexpected in the rain, all i ever do is lift off the throttle gently and it pretty much stops doing what it was doing.

Gives you a fright, yeah. But next time you'd know

[Harey]

Get some decent tyres! They are sooo important. If you cant handle the rear wheels losing traction then you need to adjust how you drive and get the best damn tyres you can afford.

[La Bomba]

Get some decent tyres! They are sooo important. If you cant handle the rear wheels losing traction then you need to adjust how you drive and get the best damn tyres you can afford.

Harey like I was controlling the rear tires fine when they were sinking down to accelerate. It was just when the auto transmission changed gear that the rear flung out. I think Silvia + Auto, = neever ever floor it in the wet, regardless of the tires, I've completely lost confidence.

What made it worse was the wheels being badly out of alignment, and worn down rear tires

Edit: the tires bought by the lady cost $143, is that expensive for 225 width tires

Edited July 26, 2010 by La Bomba