Timing Belt Dramas... Car Wont Start :(

[chef_stagea]

hi there..

so i recently replaced the timing belt on my stag... i also put a hks 2535, coilpacks, and just a general service

timing belts back together but the car wont run...

i did get it started once, it sounded like it has a SERIOUSE exhaust leak... (really tracktorish... like when my exhaust gasket was gone on the 260... it ran for about 2 seconds b4 i cut it out cos it sounded rude..

couldnt start it the next 2 times i tryed.... didnt wona cain anything so i stoped

what i did with the timing belt was....

marked the cas up

undid all the shit n took out the old belt

changed idler pulley

loosely put the tensioner in

lined up the 2 cam gears EXACTLY with the marks.

put the harmonic balancer bolt back in and span it around to line up the bottom marking. (bottom right of the cog standing infront of it)

it was fairly hard...

i used a breaker bar that was more than half meter long to do this... with some force....? is this normal... how have u guys moved this in the past...??once that was lined up, i put the belt on did up the tensioner... and then cracked the bolt back off... (everything was moving together at that stage... but would have been running backwards to undo the bolt? is this ok? it was semi tight...

put it all back together and with the cas the needle that goes into the cam wheel area needed to be rotated and fiddled with to find its spot... bolted up n all looked good...

how ever the car wont start... it makes noise but doesnt seem to fire....(starter motor having a great time)

excuse the shit thread.. its 3am and have had the car off the road for some time now playing with it...

from what i can tell it seems to be seriously out of time? but i cant check it without the car being on... with the light...

i dont need to line the bottom cog up with anything to do with where you check the base timing with the light.. do i??

seems odd coz all the lines on the belt lined up well...

[blitzxtr]

oh no.

Edited July 31, 2010 by blitzxtr

[BensDR30]

+1 oh no

Adam, are you telling us that you decided to spin the various ends of the engine independently from one another?

(and had to use a breaker bar to do so?)

If the answer is yes, then I think that that amount of force you exerted on the breaker bar was slightly more that what is required to bend valves...

[d1_drifter]

Might be a silly question, but did you plug the CAS back in properly?

[chef_stagea]

ben i put the intake and exh cam wheel to there mark b4 i did this... what position would they be at?... i spose all the valves are never all open or shut tho... so i would have had to have push threw one... it didnt feal like it tho.. just felt like on a motor bike kick start pushing threw the compression cycle... if you get me?

cas is pluged in yes... did it a few times to get a super fresh connection... wheres the best place to start looking

how have u guys span the cogs to there spots? left the belt on an its quite easy or?

[-RBD2-]

What you doing up at 3am on a Saturday....?

Out partying dude?

Hahahahahahahahah

[KiwiRS4T]

I see you are reading Sk's tutorial. Did you read it before you did the job (especially the bit that says "This is a picture of the camshaft orientation, you need to make sure they are both at TDC, when you start, when you finish and at all times in between"...and same with the crank)?!

[66yostagea]

I see you are reading Sk's tutorial. Did you read it before you did the job (especially the bit that says "This is a picture of the camshaft orientation, you need to make sure they are both at TDC, when you start, when you finish and at all times in between"...and same with the crank)?!

I followed SK instructions to the letter. Did two S13s and my Stag. Did not even have to alter the timing. It was a 10 out of 10

job.

[chef_stagea]

Ok so Ive pulled everything back out and re-done the timing belt to make sure all is A Ok.

Both of the cams are lined up

The crank pulley is lined up

Thrown the belt on and put the harmonic balancer bolt in the crank and turned the engine over by hand with breaker bar, It spins with some resistance in intervals and after about 3/4 of a full crank rotation it gets VERY tight and is hard to move any further with the breaker bar. Feels like its hitting a brick wall really.

Does anyone have any ideas on whats going on? Once again everything is at TDC but still having this issue.

Perhaps when previous owner in japland had something done the cam wheels could have been taken off and put on at different orientations making the markers on them incorrect? Is this possible?

[RubyRS4]

Mate, you bent valves or worse. You should line up the timing BEFORE removing the belt. Engine won't start due to compression loss due to bent valves. Time to pull the head off.

[chef_stagea]

roo im pretty sure it doesnt matter when you line up the marks aslong as it gets done... but i could be wrong.

im starting to think the issue is something in the engine cycle somewhere.. somehow... maybe somthing in the spark plug holes!

i totaly re did the timing belt to absolute perfection today, the 1st time we tryed to start it just hit this 'hard spot' we are talking about,

after that i moved the crank pulley with the breaker bar and it started... but still this really loud tractor noise... very exhaust gassie..

would a serious crack or gone gasket in the exhaust manifold cause it to make this bad noise and run really shit.

throw it out there.....

i did also change turbo to a hks 2535

timing belt,

oil,

sparkplugs..... NGK BCPRE6 0.8mm i did line them up to the old ones (1.1m gap) . so im doubting its a funky sparkplug...

coilpacks

coilpacks in the car now are the stockies... so its not them,

oils there, with no coolant. so i didnt mess up any lines on turbo,

Edited August 1, 2010 by chef_stagea

[MANWHORE]

Mate, you bent valves or worse. You should line up the timing BEFORE removing the belt. Engine won't start due to compression loss due to bent valves. Time to pull the head off.

Unfortunately, this may be the case.

I NEVER turn any of the pulleys without the belt on. Especially not the balancer, but in anycase, never any of them.

E.g. I had to replace the cam seals. I forgot to crack the hex nuts/bolts on the left hand cam. I had to put the belt back on before I cracked it, cracked the bolts/nuts, then took the belt back off again.

When I turn the engine by hand via the crank bolt with the spark plugs in, it is firm, but not what I would call very firm or difficultly firm. Also, I don't feel any differing levels of firmness throughout the rotation. I turn it using a 42mm breaker bar with light - medium strength.

Edited August 1, 2010 by MANWHORE

[MANWHORE]

PS: I never do other mods at the same time as the timing belt, just in case if something goes wrong I know what it is.

[chef_stagea]

is there a semi easy way to tell if ive smahsed them up?

no point taking the head off to find nothing... will there be much to see down the spark plug holes? worth taking the exhaust manifold off for a looksie?... or again not alot to be seen?

and will the car run with bent valves...

im unsure... because the 1st time i did the belt... the 2nd time i went to start it it wouldnt fire... but span freely... but that hardspot was there... i also used a half meter breaker bar... and needed 2 hands to crack the bolt off with a fair bit of pressure.

Edited August 1, 2010 by chef_stagea

[66yostagea]

Adam, if you take the plugs out the whole lot should turn very easily. If it dont its time for heads off.

[Daleo]

The "really bad exhaust leak" sound you are hearing is likely the compression from a cylinder leaking past a bent exhaust valve no longer sealing the cylinder. The "tight spot" you keep coming up against when you turn the engine over is possibly a valve bent at its full extension into the cylinder.

At this point, there is no cheats way to diagnose your problem and continuing to turn the engine over, is only likely to end in more damage.

Pull the head off and assess the damage. Sorry mate, it happens to most of us at some point if you play with cars.

[Tommy Kaira RL]

Could you take the rocker covers off and see if the valves are going in and out like they should. But it sounds like to me its a bent valve. The valves could hit if one cam is turned and not the other. Ive replaced valve springs on a v8 head by filling cylinder up with compressor air which holds the valves up. Could you try something like that with the cams off so that when you ad compressed air the valves will go up and seal them into the head. Its another way of doing a compression test i guess if you cant crank it over.

[Tommy Kaira RL]

P.S If you dont get your car fixed by the cruise I have a spare seat

[RubyRS4]

You must line up timing marks with belt still on. I'm convinced you've bent valves. Turning the cams opens valves out of time with the crank. Then forcing the crank to turn makes the piston bend valves. Way to test is remove cam covers and check valve clearances. A big gap means valves are bent and not seating properly. Meaning compression loss.

[chef_stagea]

So if this is the case that I've bent valves is this going to ruin a fair bit of stuff? Or would I have most likely only hit one? .... Not going to be cheek hey!

So were agreeing the head needs to come off??

After I've tried taking out sparkplugs and spinning it... Ahh wow!

You must line up timing marks with belt still on. I'm convinced you've bent valves. Turning the cams opens valves out of time with the crank. Then forcing the crank to turn makes the piston bend valves. Way to test is remove cam covers and check valve clearances. A big gap means valves are bent and not seating properly. Meaning compression loss.