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R31Nismoid

By R31Nismoid,
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R31Nismoid Grand Master

R31Nismoid

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Ok so my 3TB of disk space is finally running out...

Of course I've left it to the last min to sort out and only have about 100GB left with 200GB quota for the next 28 days.

Something clearly has to give...

I've decided on the following:

- Cheap as possible

- Power useage is not really a concern. It's all a poofteenth anyway @ those low levels.

- 6x 1TB HDD's (RAID5, so 5TB array I'll make it 6x1.5TB in 12months or so once pricing drops)

- WHS for software. I have a TechNet subscription - therefore it's an easy choice/step (unless someone has a better idea?)

- Using an old shitty Mid Tower and stick it in the corner next to my router

I'm still deciding on:

- ATX board is fine. I would like m-ITX, currently no board on the market for RAID5... So im stuck using a Mid Tower for now.

--- So 6 SATA ports min, SATA III is required

--- P55/H55/H57 (im thinking this ASRock board would go nicely http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...ducts_id=15006)

--- Rest of the parts CPU/RAM I'll workout later.

Backup solution.

This is probably the bigger issue I have - I have NFI when it comes to backups.

Cannot get my head around how I can easily B/U a 5TB array given there are no 5TB disks. And screw buying another 5x 1TB disks and swapping them over etc.

So i need to look @ TAPE drives or something? Surely missing something here.

Advice when you boys have some time :P

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R31Nismoid Grand Master

R31Nismoid

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I aint paying for an overpriced NAS solution - forgot to state that :P

For a 5 bay NAS you are looking @ $700-$900, thats without the $500 in HDD's

If i was going to go that route i would get a QNAP, already thought about it but pricing is still just too high for what you get.

DivHunter Grand Master

DivHunter

Posted
Posted (edited)

There aren't really any solutions cheaper than another array of disks for backup. WHS doesn't software RAID but it can do multiple copies of items onto different physical disks in it's pool (which can be hardware RAID volumes).

Couple of PERC/5i or 6i cards with 5TB+ arrays. One in the storage pool the other as a seperate drive that you robocopy and or image to.

I have an old Dell 2RU storage works or whatever server that I have been considering getting an eSATA RAID card and 4 of these http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...oducts_id=14199

But that would be far more than I actualy need now or anytime soon. 40TB would be shit hot though.

Edited by DivHunter
R31Nismoid Grand Master

R31Nismoid

Posted
  • Author
Posted
There aren't really any solutions cheaper than another array of disks for backup. WHS doesn't software RAID but it can do multiple copies of items onto different physical disks in it's pool (which can be hardware RAID volumes).

Couple of PERC/5i or 6i cards with 5TB+ arrays. One in the storage pool the other as a seperate drive that you robocopy and or image to.

I have an old Dell 2RU storage works or whatever server that I have been considering getting an eSATA RAID card and 4 of these http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...oducts_id=14199

But that would be far more than I actualy need now or anytime soon. 40TB would be shit hot though.

Yer the PERC 5i cards i can get for around $200 so that has crossed my mind and then just use a old shitty mobo i have here, given the card does all the work.

I would be using WHS just for the O/S and letting a ICHR10 or a card do the work.

That Lian Li product aint badly priced.

So basically im building 2x PERC 5i arrays with 12 disks? lol... ;)

This shit gonna get expensive :P

jrm Veteran

jrm

Posted
Posted
There aren't really any solutions cheaper than another array of disks for backup. WHS doesn't software RAID but it can do multiple copies of items onto different physical disks in it's pool (which can be hardware RAID volumes).

Couple of PERC/5i or 6i cards with 5TB+ arrays. One in the storage pool the other as a seperate drive that you robocopy and or image to.

I have an old Dell 2RU storage works or whatever server that I have been considering getting an eSATA RAID card and 4 of these http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...oducts_id=14199

But that would be far more than I actually need now or anytime soon. 40TB would be shit hot though.

Personally, I ended up using a Lian-Li Armorsuit PC-P80B - big case, solidly built, has 12 x 5.25" drive bays.

I added in 4 x Lian Li EX-H34's. These are basically 4-in-3 hot-swap SATA bays, giving me 16 SATA hotswap bays.

For controllers, I'm using a pair of PERC/5i - I picked these up on eBay for - I think - about $190ea. These are basically 2 port SAS controllers, that you can use SAS -> SATA cables on, to basically get 8 SATA ports per card. They'll support, RAID0, 1, 5, 50. If you want RAID6 (and slightly higher performance) you really need need the PERC/6i.

I'm running two RAID sets, my original 8 x 500GB in RAID5 (this was originally 4 x 500GB when I first built it 3 years ago), and my second new RAID set I build about 3 months ago in the latest upgrade, consisting of 8 x 1500GB in RAID50 (bigger disks, wanted more redundancy - would have preferred RAID6, but unfortunately the controller lacks the support).

Right now I'm only using about 4TB of space of the 12.5TB usable right now, so I'm probably going to decommission the old 8x500GB RAID5 in the next month or so and move the data to the new RAID50 (Still, 9TB usable). Later, when I'm ready, the controller/case will be all primed up for 2TB (or larger - whatever's the right price/size point at the time) to give me additional space as my needs grow.

For backups, I'm using 3 x 2TB drives connected via the motherboard SATA ports with eSATA external connections. It works well for me, and should give me room to expand in the future with bigger/more drives via eSATA. I've been contemplating some of the 4-bay SATA external drive bays which connect back with a single eSATA cable (using with a port multipliers), which should provide 8TB backup space with 2TB drives, and more as drive-sizes increase.

Anyways - thought I'd give you my perspective. As a warning, I work in high-uptime, high-SLA environments for my job, so my views on servers, etc has been definitely skewed by it.

R31Nismoid Grand Master

R31Nismoid

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Thanks for that! I’d probably run two separate cases. I know all about the PERC 5i/6 cards, fully read up on those little puppies :blink:

I don’t like the idea of the drives I’m using as a backup, sitting on the same PSU & Powerboard, just in-case something happens etc. Obviously taking stuff off-site is the best overall but that’s simply not going to happen.

I just wish the Perc 5i cards didn’t get so damn hot, then I could just use a m-ITX board/case (Lian Li 6-bay m-ITX case of win) and it would be sweet as… But as they chunk out the heat so much so that the m-ITX option + PERC could prove dangerous in the long run so I’m gonna have to use a tower.

Given I’m using 6 disks in RAID5 (5TB effective), I think RAID5 is a good option and only need one disk redundant.

With your backups how does it all work? Are you swapping each 2TB disk over once it’s full or plugging 3x 2TB and just removing once done?

How long does it take to backup your 4TB? How often are you backing up as a result?

trance Collaborator

trance

Posted
Posted

If you are looking at raiding drives larger than 750gb with the ich fakeraid, you will run into problems with members dropping out. Unfortunately, you will need to look into a card and enterprise drives. With that kind of storage size it wont be a cheapish option anyway :). Difference between desktop to enterprise drives is not only the higher grade assembly, but the response time to the controller eliminates member drop out.

R31Nismoid Grand Master

R31Nismoid

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I've never heard of anyone using/reccomending Ent drives just for a small type of server like that.

Yes the extra uptimes or whatever are good but given I've had my current drives sitting in RAID0 and on 24x7 for about 3 years, the WD blacks aint too bad :woot:

jrm Veteran

jrm

Posted
Posted
With your backups how does it all work? Are you swapping each 2TB disk over once it’s full or plugging 3x 2TB and just removing once done?

How long does it take to backup your 4TB? How often are you backing up as a result?

I currently just have each of the 3x2TB hooked up via eSATA cables and constantly connected. I have them told to power down when they're not in use to try and minimise their run times. I currently do a full back up once a week. Given how little most of the data changes in the course of a week - I haven't bothered with anything special. I should probably just modify my code to do differential backups and do it daily, but I'm lazy. What's there works. I *could* disconnect the drives once the backup is complete and throw them in a safe, but I don't have one. Something I'd love if I could find one at not too stupid a cost.

If you are looking at raiding drives larger than 750gb with the ich fakeraid, you will run into problems with members dropping out. Unfortunately, you will need to look into a card and enterprise drives. With that kind of storage size it wont be a cheapish option anyway :woot:. Difference between desktop to enterprise drives is not only the higher grade assembly, but the response time to the controller eliminates member drop out.

100% agree on avoiding any sort of software-based/ICH raid; Pretty much anything you find on motherboards should be avoided - hence why I (and others) have suggested PERC/5i or PERC/6i - these are reasonably cheap cards that perform well. Only drama with them is you need to add a bigger heatsink (costs about $20ea).

With regards to the drives themselves, whilst I do agree on some level about enterprise drives, for a home situation - with RAID - I don't think it's entirely necessary. Just make sure you buy from a reputable brand and avoid the 'green' type drives that really aren't designed to be on 24/7 in RAID configurations (these are well known to drop out of even proper hardware RAID causing corruptions).

Really, for performance, I think you're not gonna find any issues with consumer grade drives either. With 8 x 1.5TB in RAID50 I'm getting an easy 300-350MB/s read performance, which given everything it's talking to is over 1gbps ethernet is the bottleneck rather than the disk/controller performance.

DivHunter Grand Master

DivHunter

Posted
Posted (edited)

Exactly what I was going to suggest, as long as you don't buy some 'green' bullshit (looking at you WD) it'll be fine. Though I agree discreate RAID cards are better I have been running a pair of VRaptors in onboard RAID0 for a long time with 0 errors on my main system and they get very healthy speeds for spindles.

Edited by DivHunter
R31Nismoid Grand Master

R31Nismoid

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do you really need to have backups of all that stuff? I don't know what your budget is, but why not get a hot swappable drive bay and store all the drives in a cupboard or something?

Some of the stuff I have one would struggle to find today.

A lot of liveset music & video that is quite old/rare :)

Add to the fact I must have at least 150+ 1080p movies/TV series etc

That stuff would take years to download again and if internet/DL restrictions get as tight as things are set too... It'll come in handy to have what i have now.

I currently just have each of the 3x2TB hooked up via eSATA cables and constantly connected. I have them told to power down when they're not in use to try and minimise their run times. I currently do a full back up once a week. Given how little most of the data changes in the course of a week - I haven't bothered with anything special. I should probably just modify my code to do differential backups and do it daily, but I'm lazy. What's there works. I *could* disconnect the drives once the backup is complete and throw them in a safe, but I don't have one. Something I'd love if I could find one at not too stupid a cost.

Ah I'm getting the picture now. So it's basically filling up 2TB, then moving onto the next disk. If the RAID array failed it wouldn't care the fact it's being loaded back from 3 separate JBOD?

Im assuming here it treats them as JBOD and just copies over what it needs?

I'm honestly struggling to get my head around it, i bet im missing something small and the penny will drop eventually.

No experience with backups in all my IT years, always someone else doing that stuff!

I'd only need weekly backups at best as well as my data pool only increases by around 50GB/week & the data that is there doesn't change - so not major.

100% agree on avoiding any sort of software-based/ICH raid; Pretty much anything you find on motherboards should be avoided - hence why I (and others) have suggested PERC/5i or PERC/6i - these are reasonably cheap cards that perform well. Only drama with them is you need to add a bigger heatsink (costs about $20ea).

With regards to the drives themselves, whilst I do agree on some level about enterprise drives, for a home situation - with RAID - I don't think it's entirely necessary. Just make sure you buy from a reputable brand and avoid the 'green' type drives that really aren't designed to be on 24/7 in RAID configurations (these are well known to drop out of even proper hardware RAID causing corruptions).

Really, for performance, I think you're not gonna find any issues with consumer grade drives either. With 8 x 1.5TB in RAID50 I'm getting an easy 300-350MB/s read performance, which given everything it's talking to is over 1gbps ethernet is the bottleneck rather than the disk/controller performance.

Exactly what I was going to suggest, as long as you don't buy some 'green' bullshit (looking at you WD) it'll be fine. Though I agree discreate RAID cards are better I have been running a pair of VRaptors in onboard RAID0 for a long time with 0 errors on my main system and they get very healthy speeds for spindles.

Yeah I know all about the heatsink and stuff given they come from a forced air server ;)

Will sort that out no problem and I've got half a dozen spare 120mm fans to help.

I certainly won't be getting any of the green drives and RAID5 will offer all the performance/redundancy i feel that i need.

I don't require super pace setting R/W speeds, although with a 5i I'll get that either way :worship:

I've also been running my two WD blacks RAID0 off a ICHR9 without a problem, 24x7 for 1.5yrs and moving around 400GB/month.

Certianly agree about a proper RAID card being the best way.

Would u consider freenas as an OS? Very lightweight if all you are doing is storage.

The server i will use as a torrent box & hosting box also - as it'll be running 24x7.

The bonus is i no longer need to leave my gaming machine on 24x7 either like it is now (for torrenting/hosting)

So having it WHS means I can use all my current software. So it's unfortunately not quite as simple of a choice and freenas will pose problems with some of the hosting stuff i use i suspect.

Also my gaming PC & media box will be 64 Bit/Win7. So overall my reasons are simplicity more than anything else for the WHS choice.

Plug it all into my Billion Router and happy days basically. Win7 will do the rest of the work for me.

(i'll start another thread about the media box in a few weeks)

I did toy with the idea of the server as a media box, but given I have a old AMD/mobo/ram combo & fugly case sitting there i'll just stick it in a corner I just need a PERC card and im set $200, plus the HDD cost.

Then i can build a nice little WMC in a sexy case to suit all my amps & stuff :)

bozodos Grand Master

bozodos

Posted
Posted

I dunno man, if you're honestly that paranoid about that amount of data, tape could be a possiblity rather than the f**king around and inherent mechanical disadvantage of any RAID setup. How often do you plan on accessing most of this data? my hunch would be not all that often.

You could invest in a Blu-Ray burner perhaps for movies?

It just seems like incredible overkill for any home user situation.

R31Nismoid Grand Master

R31Nismoid

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Not paranoid, i just dont wanna lose it. Taken me many years to accrue it all and the longer i leave it the more risky it gets really.

Blue Ray burner? fark that!

The blanks are are like $20ea still IIRC.

+ the burn time for each one.

Tape is still something i keep thinkin about, what does that kinda stuff cost? (some of you would know id imagine).

Given it would then last me 5-10 years easily long term it might be ok?

DivHunter Grand Master

DivHunter

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Posted
Not paranoid, i just dont wanna lose it. Taken me many years to accrue it all and the longer i leave it the more risky it gets really.

Blue Ray burner? fark that!

The blanks are are like $20ea still IIRC.

+ the burn time for each one.

Tape is still something i keep thinkin about, what does that kinda stuff cost? (some of you would know id imagine).

Given it would then last me 5-10 years easily long term it might be ok?

cost? More than your server for the space you need unless you want to swap a bunch of tapes every time you backup or restore.

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