New bilstein/Kings setup: review

[(B1) MR_fanny]

another question......do those diffs have to be model specific...ie made for a skyline or can they be put in any car??

[lwells]

another question......do those diffs have to be model specific...ie made for a skyline or can they be put in any car??

Model specific AFAIK as the diff ratios vary.

LW.

[Sydneykid]

Hi guys, I only buy LSD diff centres, the crown wheels (4.1 or 4.3 ) seem to bolt up to them OK. I had heard that the drive shaft splines were different, but I haven't struck that problem so far.

[(B1) MR_fanny]

can somone tell me the standard diff ratio of a 33.....so i can compare it to the 2way

anybody have recomendations for a good 2way diff ratio?? i dont know anything about diffs so the more help the better, even if this is a noob question:D

[SLY33]

i believe std r33 is 4.11

[SLY33]

as the topic has changed to diffs, please continue here http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/sh...4323#post714323

and we'll let this thread get back to suspension

[sidewaymambo]

I will pick up mine tomorrow, and take some pics of them.

[400HP]

Springs rates are a personal choice and rather dependant on what else you have done. I run fairly large stabiliser bars and plenty of caster in the front (8 degrees) and anti squat in the rear (30%). The front anti roll bar is a 27 mm adjustable one and the rear is either a 22 mm or a 24 mm adjustable (22 mm in the rain). Camber is 3 degrees negative on the front and 1.5 degrees negative on the back. That's a bit extreme for a road only car, where you would run maybe as little as 1 degree negative on the front and 0.5 degree on the rear.

sydneykid - are these the measurements of a specific brand of antiroll bar and for which car? Those camber adjustments seem, as you said, a bit extreme for a car on the road. What did u fit to your car for you to achieve these adjustments and what kind of car do you have.

I have fitted whiteline antiroll bars on my GTR with stock springs/shocks and camber. After fitting JUST these rollbars it seemed to induce a bit of understeer. I am trying to fix this issue and am trying to determine what other things can be improved in my suspension at the same time. I think my springs and shocks are getting to be worn out a bit and my camber and castor should probably be adjusted while I'm at it.

Open to any expereinces incl. settings and what brands/hardware for a GTR.

[rs73]

I have fitted whiteline antiroll bars on my GTR with stock springs/shocks and camber. After fitting JUST these rollbars it seemed to induce a bit of understeer. I am trying to fix this issue and am trying to determine what other things can be improved in my suspension at the same time. I think my springs and shocks are getting to be worn out a bit and my camber and castor should probably be adjusted while I'm at it.

I dont have GTR, but anyhow, have you tried setting the front rollbars at its softest setting and play around the rear ones, maybe make it firmest at the rear?

Also play with shock damper setting till you can dial in the best oversteer balance to suit your driving needs.... hope this will help to reduce the understeer and induce a bit more oversteer or even a 50/50 balance.

[Sydneykid]

Hi 400HP, all Australian made stabiliser bars are manufactured out of the same grade of solid spring steel rod, so a 27 mm bar of one brand is almost exactly the same rate as a 27 mm of any other brand. Standard GTR stabiliser bars are hollow, so you can't compare the diameters alone.

Increasing the amount of positive caster makes the most improvement to turn in, so that is where I would start. If mid corner understeer is the problem, then a little more negative camber will help there.

The anti roll bar sizes I described in my previous post (27 mm front and 24 or 22 mm rear) are what I would use on a GTST. The front bar on a GTR would need to be smaller, around 24 mm would be my suggestion. The rear bar at 22 or 24 mm would be the same for GTR and GTST.

As rs73 said, you can tune out some of the understeer by backing off the front bar and stiffening up the rear bar. But I would go for more caster regardless, it makes a heap of difference.

Hope that helps some more

[400HP]

Have you tried setting the front rollbars at its softest setting and play around the rear ones, maybe make it firmest at the rear?

I believe I already have my sway bars set at that. I have the whiteline adjustable ones and I believe they're 27 fronts and 22 rears. Maybe they have more settings than just stiff and soft I'll check soon. I was aware that the whiteline ones are solid and the stock ones are hollow but when comparing weights (if this is any indication of rigidity cos I'm not sure if it is) they did seem very similar still in weight....

Increasing the amount of positive caster makes the most improvement to turn in, so that is where I would start. If mid corner understeer is the problem, then a little more negative camber will help there.

Turn in seems to be fine. It's more mid corner understeer that is killing me.... camber on the front or back?

[Sydneykid]

Turn in seems to be fine. It's more mid corner understeer that is killing me.... camber on the front or back?

More negative camber on the front will help the mid corner understeer. As will stiffening the rear shocks and/or softening the front shocks.

That said, I am not a fan of 27 mm front bars on GTR's, the right size for a GTST but a bit big for a GTR. Make sure the front bar is on the softest setting.

Hope that helps some more

[400HP]

That said, I am not a fan of 27 mm front bars on GTR's, the right size for a GTST but a bit big for a GTR. Make sure the front bar is on the softest setting.

Just checked mine are 22mm on front and rear blade adjustable. I have currently got stock suspension. Basically I'm looking for a quick way to get rid of this mid corner understeer. I am going to adjust the camber for one. Then I'm looking at two avenues (not that there is one right choice... I'd like to do both eventually)....

1) Alignment parts... ie/ camber adjustments on front and rears.... possibly the nismo circuit link kit.

2) Springs/Shocks/Coilover kit - although I'm not sure if this is going to half half the effect of the first option however maybe it will if my spirngs and shocks are worn, which I suspect they are.

[Sydneykid]

Hi 400HP, I'll think you will find the Whiteline camber and caster adjusters are just as good and way cheaper than the Nismo. I only use polyurethane bushed adjusters on road cars. The sperical jointed style are very harsh, wear rapidly and knock thereafter.

While on that subject, do you know the wheel alignment settings the car currently has?

You should check the ride height, that will tell you if you have a spring problem, it should be not less than 350 mm centre of wheel to guard both front and rear. As for shocks, pretty easy to tell, if the car has done more than 70,000 k's then the shocks need to be replaced. GTR's are very heavy and work their shocks enormously, I have yet to find one with standard shocks that aren't shot once they get over that number of k's.

There has been plenty written lately on this forum about springs and shocks, I suggest you have a read before you make a decision on what to buy.

[400HP]

While on that subject, do you know the wheel alignment settings the car currently has?

But I'm sure they're very out of wack.

I'll think you will find the Whiteline camber and caster adjusters are just as good and way cheaper than the Nismo. I only use polyurethane bushed adjusters on road cars. The sperical jointed style are very harsh, wear rapidly and knock thereafter.

I'm not expert on the matter of which is better than which so but I have accounts from others that the whiteline offset bushes are prone to move and the car may require an alignment more frequently. Of course if you're car is setup for street more than track this may not be an issue. Anyway I guess this debate is another topic.

You should check the ride height, that will tell you if you have a spring problem, it should be not less than 350 mm centre of wheel to guard both front and rear. As for shocks, pretty easy to tell, if the car has done more than 70,000 k's then the shocks need to be replaced. GTR's are very heavy and work their shocks enormously, I have yet to find one with standard shocks that aren't shot once they get over that number of k's.

Where did you get 350mm from? Hmm my car hasn't done that many k's but I guess driving style also affects when they should be replaced.

[Sydneykid]

Where did you get 350mm from?

I went out to the workshop and measured one. Standard they are 380 mm.

Have you read the Skylines articles at www.whiteline.com.au ?

I have used the Whiteline bushes 20 or more times and never had one move. In fact I can't see how they could. They have a double lock nut and you need to rotate the bushes to adjust them. Even if the nut cam loose they wouldn't adjust.

Are you sure you are not refering to the replacement, two part upper arms with the slidding adjuster? They move all the time, that's why Whiteline don't sell them.

[BigDatto]

Bottom line is that Jap coilovers were never designed for aussie roads, and for around the same price as a set of used coilovers you can get brand new shocks and springs, and a very nice handling car.

Hallelujah Brother, awesome words of wisdom. Should chisel that into a stone tablet.

[jlnewton]

I agree, I recently picked up a set of APEXi T-MAX coilovers for my GTR which comes out of compliance soon, and ever since have been getting cold feet after doing lots of research and discovering that Jap coilovers in Oz are considered quite bad. Nothing like a bit of hindsight after a rush of blood purchase. The springs on them at the moment look very agressive, most people I have shown refer to them as "drift spec" springs. I have bilstein shocks on my GTST at the moment and have to agree that they are the best I have tried so far, great handling yet somehow quite comfortable too.

I was going to sell the coilovers, and get a set of whiteline springs/shocks or even wait for the new whiteline group 4 coilovers which should be released in a couple of months, but I am going to try something different.

Went here yesterday: http://www.shockreco.com.au/, and am going to try something a little different, just to see if it will work. First am getting the shocks checked out, make sure they are in as good a condition as they look, if they are good, then I am getting a set of King Springs to suit the coilover size, new bump stops and dust covers. When all back together he is going to put test them again for me to ensure the shocks are a close match for the springs. If so, I should have a damper and height adjustable coilover with an acceptable ride for about the same cost (+$50) as new set of springs and shocks. If they are a terrible match then they will have to be re-valved which will blow out the cost a little but will still end up a lot cheaper than an equivilent set of new coilovers.

I am keen to "feel" the results, might be an option if your car already has coilovers you can't live with for day to day driving. If it doesn't work, I will have a little cry, and get the Whiteline spring/shock combo like I should have at the start!

Pics of the coilovers as they are now.

[jezzrrr]

Hi guys, i have recently replaced my tein HA coilovers with brand new Bilstein shocks (as sold by UAS ~$900 a set) and Kings Springs (Lows, but reset another 20mm lower).  Also added whiteline sway bars front and rear.

I've had a chance to do some kays with the new suspension, and i will say that id never bother with used coilovers again.  My concern is that you just dont know whats been done to them, regarding shock valving and spring tensions etc.  My teins were off a drift car so i expected them to be firm, but they were unacceptable for me.

The bilsteins are sweet as.  The ride is very sporty and firm but still soaks up the bumps very nicely, and i am no longer bouncing around like im on a bus.  The progressive rate of the springs in the rear probably help this a lot.

I had all springs tested before i put anything in, just so i knew where i was.  Stock springs are around 140lb's. The Kings are 180lb front, and 110/175lb progressive rate rears.  I had detailed chats to the guys at bilstein who said the shocks are designed to work with ~25% stiffer springs, and that the Kings would suit them perfectly.

The car is able to be driven harder, faster and more confidently due to the increased feel and control of the suspension.  The teins i had were hard and skippy and didnt really soak up bumps, just bounced/skipped over them.  Ive said in another thread that the ride quality is nearly as good as standard, but with better handling than the teins.

Bottom line is that Jap coilovers were never designed for aussie roads, and for around the same price as a set of used coilovers you can get brand new shocks and springs, and a very nice handling car.

The quality of the bilsteins is obvious when you lay them down next to the original shocks, which look weedy in comparison.  

Very happy with the new setup, highly recommended.

I am condidering some new Bilstein Coilovers, whiteline have set for the R34 GTR with springs but the springs seem too light (200 ish pounds front and back), I have whiteline sway bars installed and am wondering whether I need hard springs like I have been accustomed to in my R33 GTR (Teins with no other handling mods), has anyone installed the Bilstein coilovers ?

I also want my car to be lower than stock (hence coilovers)

Also what springs would anyone recomend to go with the Bilsteins

Jeremy

[Sydneykid]

Hi Jeremy, Bilsteins (and Konis) have circlip retainers for the lower spring mounts. They come with 2-3 standard circlip grooves but you can have as many as you want machined for next to nothing. By adjusting the circlip position you can raise or lower the car in increments (I use 5-8mm gaps between the grooves). The only thing is, you need to remove them from the car to do it. So, if you want to keep moving the height up and down, then adjustable lower spring platforms are better. But if you want to "set and forget", you can save a few hundred $.

As for spring rates, it is really a personal choice. For a road car with upgraded stabiliser bars and adjusted suspension geometry, you don't need very hard springs for the car to handle well. The rates at 200 lb front 175 lb rear are perfect for that in a GTST. Because of the extra weight, around 250 lbs front and 200 lbs rear would be OK for a GTR. You really don't want (or need) to go much over 200 lbs in the rear of either a GTST or a GTR. A 350 lb rate in the front springs is about the max I would recommend for a road car.

On the circuit race cars we very rarely run over 450 lbs in the front and 250 lbs in the rear. The most common is 400/200. Parrallel springs are both cheap (compared to the standard Skyline conicals) and readily available, so you can choose a rate and if it is not what you want, simply move up. We have them in 25 lb increments for the race cars.

Hope that helps