Motec M800 Vs Vipec V88 - Real Info Needed

[bigmikespec]

wasn't there real reason Paul went to motec ???? it can't just be about logging

I'm happy you chose vipec congratulations !!

I'm not naive i just cant stand the crap that some people carry on about

Motec don't sponsor anybody EVERYONE has to pay for it vipec on the other hand i dont know

P.S whats your story about operating temperature of the unit ???

PSS how is the vipec more accurate ?????

Unless he lied to me about it... I don't think so.

Thankyou.

Just keeping you on your toes

PS: look at the specs

PSS: as above

[Walk510]

Am I the only one that had trouble reading this?

Try to use some decent grammar mate, your post sounds like it was typed by someone with ADD.

im sorry you had trouble

but if you can hear my post your smarter than me i can only read it ?

PS if you can get me a script for some dexies that would be great

[GodzillaMotorsport]

i already had paid nearly 10 grand for the adl3 and e888 and egts with my m600...thats why i still have it in the car..

the vipec v88 logging now is very good for all forms of motorsport...

i can now buy a vipec 8 channel egt amp for 580.00 and about 90.00 per egt this will do the same job as the e888 and motec egts which was 2000.00 odd..also we now do a great afr which uses a ntk 5 wire sensor and if you have a v8 it has afr 1 & 2 in the logging.. the adl3 dash is great but is an overkill for my logging requirements..

i log egts, wheel speed, clutch input shaft speed , afr or lambda ,and oil & fuel pressures & all engine data , all of theses can be logged just as well in the v88 logging..

if i didnt loose 1/2 my money on the e888 and adl 3 i would sell it all...and just use a 1200.00 racepack dash for gauges only..

oh and swiper the fox changed ecus and has split 2 engine blocks , oh or could it be something i am missing....going from 9.4sec passes to 11 sec ... doh.. its got nothing to do with the ecu is my point here...

i think they are both awesome ecus ..as i tune cars every day... thats all we really need to here....one is in a gold box and priced like its is gold ...

hope this helps...

ummm were is dirtgarage when you need him for some good old motec bashing ??? bigmikespec has you idol gone away ? someone has too keep up the fight and it may as well be you now ?

what ecu does swiper the fox's car have now ??? not the inferior one does it ?

even mark is his gtr still run's an motec adl3 and motec e888 to measure the greater temperature extremes you talk about

how many real top level motorsport cars run motec I mean REAL race cars i.e dakar,rally raid,alms then to the national stuff like aus safari,finke,arc,super taxi's

class 1 offshore power boats and the list goes on and on

don't these class's operate in the most rugged extremes of the environment has to offer BUT the vipec is still better

but vipec make you car idle so much better like when does that really matter racing is Wide Open Throttle where it's meant to matter

[Drift Motorsport]

Thanks for the reply guys. Bit of flames going around, but its all a healthy debate. Motec is a great ECU, no dobut, and I'm not selling it - but its a premium option amongst today's current up and coming ECUs. Basically I am trying to justify my thinking around using a v88 instead of an m800, to take advantage of the options and learn a new ECU for fun. It sounds like the Vipec is the mid-range ECU of choice, with all the high end features of the motec options included in the cost - a big win.

Just to clarify a few points:

My lambda control on the Motec using a PLX Lambda meter and gauge does not work right as an input to the ECU. I get a lot of interference, probably from the CDI in the race car and it craps out entirely. I am having troubles with 3.5 software, that has custom input calibration, so I am running 2.x software which gets it running sweet and perfect. Upgrade to 3.5+ gives me a lot of over fueling under load and idle. talking 11+ AFRs at all times, even with the o2 sensor and lambda table. Basically I need to re-do the whole map from scratch to run 3.5+ but it runs perfect on 2.x software so I leave it at that and deal with the poor fuel consumption due to having no Motec Lambda. (no custom sensors on 2.x software).

M800 will not be sold, but I will be upgrading to Adv functions, anti lag and launch control once the GTX4202 comes in.

Cost Breakdown

- Motec M800 Loom + Sensors (Estimated) - $700

- Motec CDI Loom - $100 or so

- Motec Features advanced functions + anti-lag and launch control - $600

Cost: $1400.

Vipec V88 - ~$2500 or less with everything + all options and I can port the CDI over and I have a new ECU that runs without having to dick around with it or buy options for. $1000 is cheap for this convenience, and it seems to be a good tuning ECU from the reports on the forum.

Godzilla - Running a Motec is like that. You keep on paying and paying because you paid so much on the setup - you might as well pay that extra 1-2-5k to get it right since your outlay has been huge. I would love to buy the ADL + Pro Analysis + expanders, but f**k... its so expensive!

I know what I'm doing sounds a bit backwards, but when you have a motec and you want/need these features... and you paid so much for the ECU - it feels like you are getting raped out of your money for a stupid hexadecimal access code that is emailed to you.

Options that I will use

Logging

Anti-Lag

Launch Control

Lambda

Knock Control

All of these are factory on a v88 and costs $2,000+ on a Motec for the OPTIONS.

Motec is a great ECU - nothing being taken away from how good it is. I want to know HOW good the Vipec v88 is. For ~$2500 you get a lot of ECU for such little money. Does the V88 have a Plug and Play 1JZ Loom? I know they have a 2JZ one.

[Rolls]

My mate did a 3 day workshop at motec and one of the head engineers told him they recently dropped almost $1mil purely on software development so you know you are getting the best with motec, I really doubt any of the other products would come close to this sort of funding.

[Drift Motorsport]

What have you guys paid for your V88 and what did it come with?

[ltcree]

Dont know if this helps as I'm running the plugin Vi-pec ecu in my R33, comes with alot of the extras (anti-lag etc) just cant have many extra inputs/outputs as the V88. Mine cost around $1700 I think for the board. Have had it in there for about a year now with no problems what so ever.

My car is my daily but sees the track a fair bit too.

[bigmikespec]

What have you guys paid for your V88 and what did it come with?

Installed and tuned for under $3k

[Adriano]

I have considered Autronic, but it is too archaic for my liking and the software sucks.

You are the first person ive heard complain about the autronic software, what specifically dont you like about them?

[Walk510]

Vipec has a faster processor and is more accurate, operates at greater temperature extremes...

mike your yet to explain this statement ??

i was of the belief that the m800 runs two processors ?

or is this the vipec marketing style ?

[Drift Motorsport]

Adriano, I was looking at getting an Autronic back in 2004-ish for the VL Turbo instead of the Motec and the hardware was OK, but you needed to run a different CAS sensor disc for the autronic. The software interface sucked at first glance. The motec MS-DOS software 1.6 was much more thought out and logical to setup. Autronic was the cheaper contender to the Motec back in the day, but I was not really impressed by it, so I didn't buy one. I've downloaded the new software now, its an improvement, but Autronic doesn't really do it for me.

Motec M800 Specs ( from memory)

Motorola 40mhz 32-bit processor. The V88 may have chosen the same processor as the Motec. I do not think the motec m800 runs a dual processor - first I have heard of it.

V88 Specs:

40 MHz Specialised Automotive Microprocessor.

Ignition control to 0.1 degree, fuel to 0.01 ms -

32 Bit Calculation -

10 Bit ADC Resolution

Max 20000 RPM

I would go as far as saying that the V88 is heavily based on the M800 from the paper specs, however it is the ECU software/firmware development, voltage /current drivers and that really differentiates between aftermarket ECUs of similar hardware.

The goal of the ECU is to input analogue sensor information, modify into digital information, calculate based on the data and algorithms and resend an analogue signal back to the controlling device and repeat the cycle over and over again. Therefore, how the ECU controls the voltage to the outputs and accepts the voltage from the sensors is of paramount importance, which is probably why the Motecs have been regarded as one of the most tuneable ECUs out there.

[Drift Motorsport]

Update: it is probably one of these processors from Motorolla on both the M800 and V88.

MPC535: 32-bit Power Architecture Microcontrollers or MPC565 or MPC566

MPC565 can run at 40 and 56 mhz - if you change the crystal you can 'overclock' your processor by upping the FSB.

MPC566 can run at 40, 56 and 66mhz.

MPC535

MPC566

The advanced Power Architecture™ MPC535 32-bit embedded microcontroller from Freescale is an excellent choice for complex, cost-sensitive industrial applications that operate in a wide range of climates and environments. Ideal applications include building control / security, service processors and commercial POS (point-of-sale) systems. With a highly integrated set of peripherals including 1 MB Flash memory, a 40MHz Power Architecture core and Floating Point Unit, you can speed products to market at a cost effective price point.

The MPC535 is backed by the exceptional performance record of the Freescale Semiconductor* MPC500 family of 32-bit embedded controllers. You do not have to compromise performance or dependability.

PROTECT YOUR TECHNOLOGY INVESTMENTS: With the MPC535, as with other members of the Freescale MPC500 family, you have a clear migration path between products and from previous generations. As needs change, you can easily modify or upgrade products cost effectively, and with minimal development impact.

The MPC535 also leverages a wide range of development tools and support software already available for this computing platform , thereby helping to minimize development time.

Freescale also offers a multi-output power supply device, the MC33394, which provides the voltage levels and sequencing necessary to allow plug and play use of the MPC500 family. Refer to the Related Links section of this product summary page to view information on the MC33394.

*The Semiconductor Products Sector of Motorola, Inc. became Freescale Semiconductor, Inc., in 2004.

Features

1M byte of internal FLASH memory (divided into two blocks of 512K bytes)

32-Kbyte static RAM (CALRAM)

A 22-timer channel modular I/O system (MIOS14)

One TouCAN modules

One enhanced queued analog system with analog multiplexors (AMUX) for 20 total analog channels. These modules are configured so each module can access all 20 of the analog inputs to the part.

One queued serial multi-channel modules, which contains a queued serial peripheral interface (QSPI) and two serial controller interfaces (SCI/UART)

A J1850 (DLCMD2) communications module

A NEXUS debug port (class 3) – IEEE-ISTO 5001-1999

JTAG and background debug mode (BDM)

512k logging processor (related to the above)

Processor: Freescale (Motorola) MPC555 running at 40 mhz

Programming Language: Integer assembly, custom TPU microcode for fuel and spark control

Injector Drivers: Eight saturated drivers, with thermal and overcurrent protection

Injection Type: Full Sequential, with timing lookup by rpm and fuel pulse width

Injection pulse width resolution: 32 bits, 2us per count, using indexed table lookup with upto 65535 rows and columns

Ignition: Single channel distributer system with dwell control

Ignition timing resolution: 16 bits, .005 degree crankshaft, using indexed table lookup with upto 65535 rows and columns

Crankshaft speed resolution: 45 or 90 degree timing reference; 32 bits, 2us per count

Other Drivers: Four, rated 12 amp each, with thermal and overcurrent protection

Sensors: Standard GM for MAP, TPS, CTS and MAT. Also battery voltage and camshaft hall

Idle Control: Bosch/Ford single wire PWM at 150 htz, full PID control with cold table warmup

Closed Loop Fuel: Narrow band O2 sensor, full PID control from idle to 5000 rpm.

Total program loop execute time: at 700 rpm; 20us, over 3000 rpm; 10us (from flash)

Datalogging: All sensors read every 90 degrees crankshaft and sent out SCI, data rate maintained through 12000 rpm.

Interesting homebrew ECU Project using the above processors

http://users.ameritech.net/socrace/Firmware.html

[Walk510]

thanks for that drift intresting reading for sunday arvo, though i was just looking to have some fun with mike ?

[2pee]

Not sure how often you planned to plug and unplug the Motec if you went that way - and having done it once before, found the whole process more than a pain. Might want to get advice from Motec on disconnects, a lot of the multi-pin connectors have limits, I seem to recall the AMP ones we had were around 100.

[bigmikespec]

thanks for that drift intresting reading for sunday arvo, though i was just looking to have some fun with mike ?

lol... get a girlfriend instead

[gts_215i]

i can now buy a vipec 8 channel egt amp for 580.00 and

about 90.00 per egt this will do the same job as the e888 and motec egts which

was 2000.00 odd..also we now do a great afr which uses a ntk 5 wire sensor and

if you have a v8 it has afr 1 & 2 in the logging.

Any more information about these EGT amps and AFR Meters ?

[Beer Baron]

You are the first person ive heard complain about the autronic software, what specifically dont you like about them?

yeah most good tuners I know quite like the way autronics work. just takes a bit of time to get your head around the efficiency based stuff but good once you know how to use it.

the autronic is a great option for the money. but for this user who already has a M800 and CDI I'd be getting the 2nd car set-up to use that.

I would go as far as saying that the V88 is heavily based on the M800 from the paper specs, however it is the ECU software/firmware development, voltage /current drivers and that really differentiates between aftermarket ECUs of similar hardware.

Thank god someone said it. I see all these bloody keyboard tuners and bench racers telling me all the time: "XXX brand ECU is better than a motec/autronic/whatever as it has 8 inputs vs the motecs 7 and it has 10 outputs where as the motec only has 6, plus this whizz bang ecu has 30X30 map where as the motec/whatever only has 20X20 map and it's processor is faster blah blah blah."

the reality is if the ecu has enough inputs to monitor the sensors you need and enough outputs to drive your injectors, igntion and other solenoids etc (boost control, idle motor etc) then any more is just a wank. THE REAL difference between ECU's is not quantifiable with a number or rating. it's in the base programming of the ECU (it's 'smarts'), it's in the way the ECU interpolates between values, it's in the logic of the thing and how it deals with stuff. 3d and 4d mapping etc is also nice but you can just tell in the way some cars run whether the ecu is any good or not.

sadly you cannot measure this stuff and on paper 2 ecus may have the same hardware, the same inputs and outputs, the same map resolution but in the end one will run the car like a swiss watch and the other will run it like the busted arse of a thai lady-boy gigolo.

this is where stuff like motec is very good. they put a lot of time in their basic algorithms and logic programming and their ecu's are 'smart'.

I also am not a big fan of their pricing system where you buy an ECU that half works and then pay through the nose to get passwords to unlock all the good shit but I guess it works for people who don't need advanced functions and just want a good sound ECU.

I have little experience with vipec so I cannot comment on how good they are in this area of unquantifiable stuff but of ecus I do have experience with I do know motec is very good.

it's like diamonds, their weight is measured in carats (easy to compare), the clarity is measured too (easy to compare), even the colour is measured against a scale but beyond those things, of most importance is how well the stone is cut and there is no grading system for that. 2 stones of equal size, clarity and colour and both the same traditional round brilliant cut. one could be worth 50% more than the other based on how it's cut with the right proportions where as the cheaper one was a 'greedy' cut and sacrificed the proportions to gain a higher yield from the un-cut stone. so it is with ECUs, the stuff you can't measure is just as important as how many injectors it can run sequentially.

[Guilt-Toy]

being a vipec dealer and now tuning at a workshop that does motecs, we are now starting to buy Vipec's when we would have used Motecs.

Autronic is a very good ecu, but it is lacking on ign outputs (4 only, must use wasted spark on the 6 cyl or go a CDI), they also have faults, sometimes we need to smash them hard on the ground when they stop working. However when a Autronic comes in for a tune its easy money, the way VE works on these things are very close to the vipec, but it makes it a little easier to do the tune depending on the setup.

The Motec is a very good ecu, i have grown to like them, once you know where everything is and how it all works its a old clunker that its hardware has not been changed for how long now? tuning them without the logging options sucks, Try tuning a 800hp car with no map tracing or logs... Its not very much fun when you are usually spoilt with the vipec software features.

The V88 is the new bad boy on the market compared to the older ecu's you are comparing them to, the software is a dream to use and everything is layed out to get the job done well and fast, the support was second to none and everything works properly! it even supported Electronic throttle without any expensive updates and the electronic throttle works very good.

I would rather tune vipec over all the other ecu's, then motec then autronic, but the haltech? thats another story but lets just say I favour them more then the motec also.

Everyone has their own opinions, I see 5+ motecs a week and every single time I wish it was a Vipec.

In this country the Motec has the #1 reputation. Its been doing the job well much longer then the Vipec / Autronic, Autronic is #2 here, and other ecu's are starting to pop their head out of the water.

IMO keep the motec, it does the job fine... IF you are going to buy another ECU then I would buy a Vipec or Link or Haltech.

[Beer Baron]

good post mate. thanks for sharing your opinion.

[Drift Motorsport]

FYI Guys, I have both now

Motec is staying in the 1JZ T51R SPL Soarer and the Vipec will shortly replace my PowerFC in the Supra. I also scored a plug and play loom for The VL RB30-26 project so Winning all the way around

I need A / B Looms for the Vipec and an Air Temp Sensor AIT.... can anyone help? Pretty Please!

Going for 400rwkw in the Supra and the PFC won't cut it for my drag and anti-lag ambitions hehe.

I love the Motec, the software and the support, but I don't like paying through the arse for features that are ALREADY on the ECU.

I also like the LInk G4 Extreme interface so I copied the theme/layout over into the Vipec Software and voila - it works!

So someone please get back to me with pricing and availability on a A/B loom for the Vipec + AIT. I've been quoted around $300 or so delivered, but looking for a better deal or the Plug & Play harness for the 2JZ. Vipec say They they won't sell it separately, which is BS as I have a Vipec already.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Drift Motorsport