Car + Mods Vs. Driver Skill

[GHOSTrun]

In my limited time spent on SAU, and perusing through the R35 GTR forums, I notice there are a lot of threads along the lines of;

- I want to upgrade my brakes

- How do I fix the understeer

- I want more power

etc.

From my understanding, Nissan engineers took a fairly stock standard GTR to Nurburgring and ran a 7:27.something lap time, which is pretty damn quick, and I'm guessing 99.9% of SAU GTR owners would not even come close to that. So is it not fair to say that these people should learn to drive their cars first before spending money on it trying to 'buy' skill?

No disrespect intended to SAU GTR owners as I'm sure there are some very accomplished drivers on the forums (and modding your car is half the fun of owning it! ), it's just an observation I've made and I think it is a relevant discussion point - more driving less modding?

Keen to hear your thoughts..

Edited September 25, 2010 by GHOSTrun

[Basti]

i agree, but its the nurburgring not nurenburg

[battery]

In my limited time spent on SAU, and perusing through the R35 GTR forums, I notice there are a lot of threads along the lines of;

- I want to upgrade my brakes

- How do I fix the understeer

- I want more power

etc.

From my understanding, Nissan engineers took a fairly stock standard GTR to Nurburgring and ran a 7:27.something lap time, which is pretty damn quick, and I'm guessing 99.9% of SAU GTR owners would not even come close to that. So is it not fair to say that these people should learn to drive their cars first before spending money on it trying to 'buy' skill?

No disrespect intended to SAU GTR owners as I'm sure there are some very accomplished drivers on the forums (and modding your car is half the fun of owning it! ), it's just an observation I've made and I think it is a relevant discussion point - more driving less modding?

Keen to hear your thoughts..

everyone is entitled to their own opinion but this is retarded.

what your suggesting here is that you have to be as good as a professional driver with a thousand hours of driving time before you are allowed to modify your own car

everyone has different driving styles some people may want to modify the car to better suit their style.

most people don't directly care about track times but are more driven by the experience and if that comes from more power or different suspension then so be it!

Edited September 25, 2010 by battery

[handbrake]

For regular track use people are modding their cars for several reasons:

1. brakes are not the best for regular punishment and stock parts are way overpriced.
   
2. I assume from your avatar (maybe I have the track wrong) that you have tracked your car at QR. brake fade with the pedal mushing to the floor at the end of the back straight stopping from 250kmph to the hairpin of turn 3 is reason enough to want to upgrade, I'd rather not end up in the wall.
   
3. Stock tyres are ok but easily improved upon, again, way overpriced for regularly trashing on the circuit.
   
4. More power is so easy to obtain in this car, just as it is with your S15. why stay stock? it is actually quite cheap to add power to the R35.
   
5. I have found driving my car with the mods has become progressively more challenging as it is faster and capable of more. finding the limit is no easy task. sure I get fast times more easily than I would in a less capable car but this just raises the bar. shooting 57.5 on the sprint circuit with a mild Cobb tune on standard tyres was much easier to me than aiming for 54's with a bucket of mods. I am mentally shagged by the end of a session usually - maybe I'm soft
   

I dont think anyone would disagree with you on improving their skill levels. whilst people post about their car mods openly, not many post about their driver training. Just because it isnt posted doesnt mean it isnt happening. most of the people you read that are modding their car for track work are serious about improving their skills. many take on instruction/practice sessions, read literature on racing and car setup extensively (you should see my library), talk widely with professionals and undertake complex data analysis. no one I know thrashes it blindly on the track and then modifies the car without thought of their own ability and how to improve.

[The Bogan]

I mask my lack of skills with more POWAHHHHHH.

[ARTZ]

In my limited time spent on SAU, and perusing through the R35 GTR forums, I notice there are a lot of threads along the lines of;

- I want to upgrade my brakes

- How do I fix the understeer

- I want more power

etc.

From my understanding, Nissan engineers took a fairly stock standard GTR to Nurburgring and ran a 7:27.something lap time, which is pretty damn quick, and I'm guessing 99.9% of SAU GTR owners would not even come close to that. So is it not fair to say that these people should learn to drive their cars first before spending money on it trying to 'buy' skill?

No disrespect intended to SAU GTR owners as I'm sure there are some very accomplished drivers on the forums (and modding your car is half the fun of owning it! ), it's just an observation I've made and I think it is a relevant discussion point - more driving less modding?

Keen to hear your thoughts..

No disrespect to SAU GTR owners hey, what about the rest of us non-gtr owners

Why dont we all buy houses and just live in them, and just furnish them with ikea packages, whats the point in personalizing my house I just live in it...why dont we all just wear dunlop volleys, i mean they're just shoes right..I mean some guy won wimbledon in them once

What your implying is we should all give our $$ to massive auto corporations and not our local tuner ,mechanic, fabricator,auto elec etc etc...

Also how the hell would we learn anything about cars or machinery for that matter if we didnt pull stuff apart and attempt to modify it...

I understand what you are trying to say but also understand if your thought about it some more it is a stupid statement to make..There is more to cars than going fast .

Go buy your new GTR and be the fastest kid on the block but who you gunna call when it f**ks up and there is no certified nissan mechanic in sight....Ghostbusters....

Edited September 25, 2010 by Arthur T3

[handbrake]

lets try to put a positive spin on this thread.

not everyone can get to the track as much as they would like. I am trying fo 1-2 times a month. Reading between is good to develop strategy. another good way to improve is to perform data analysis, though I find this tricky wihtout a professional looking over my shoulder.

here is some literature I have read on engine modding and understanding the car systems, aerodynamics, tuning the chassis and some on Driver training. I am sure some will laugh at some of the titles

the speed secrets books are good to start with. training yourself to become more aware of your driving on public roads is well detailed in speed secrets 2 as a way to focus your brain with some drills.

I discuss what i read with professionals and people who have real world experience. Any idiot can read a book (unfortunately not enough do), but nothing replaces experience in the end.

[GHOSTrun]

Very informative posts handbrake, thankyou for posting.

[09GTR]

I've modified every car ive ever owned. Including the family people mover. Why? Because cars are projects to me. They are not devices that take me from A to B. They are opportunities to experiment, to learn, and to enjoy. It's like cooking, making home brew - if it's a passion, then seek to learn everything you can. Make mistakes along the way, push the envelope....after all this is the very essence of human achievement in every field.

Of course, there are those born to follow, to fit in line behind everyone else, follow someone elses recipe, accept the notion that you can't do any better, and to be frank humankind needs these people too.

So ghost run, don't go changing, because on the ship bound for new destinations we can always use someone to do the grinding.

[GHOSTrun]

No disrespect to SAU GTR owners hey, what about the rest of us non-gtr owners

It applies to everyone, in fact I even posted this on 4 different car forums with different demographics to gauge what the repsonses would be. The general bias on the other three forums was that "yes, people should spend more time on their skills than trying to compensate by improving parts, which may or may not need to be improved..." etc.

Why dont we all buy houses and just live in them, and just furnish them with ikea packages, whats the point in personalizing my house I just live in it...why dont we all just wear dunlop volleys, i mean they're just shoes right..I mean some guy won wimbledon in them once

Mate you have gone so far off on a tangent you are nowhere.

What your implying is we should all give our $$ to massive auto corporations and not our local tuner ,mechanic, fabricator,auto elec etc etc...

What?

Also how the hell would we learn anything about cars or machinery for that matter if we didnt pull stuff apart and attempt to modify it...

Huh? So you know better than the engineers at Nissan?

I understand what you are trying to say but also understand if your thought about it some more it is a stupid statement to make..There is more to cars than going fast.

So if you don't go fast and you don't enter Autosalon or drift it, where does that leave you...hardparking it?

Go buy your new GTR and be the fastest kid on the block but who you gunna call when it f**ks up and there is no certified nissan mechanic in sight....Ghostbusters....

What? What? Lol. Your posts just keep getting better.. :lol:

Edited September 25, 2010 by GHOSTrun

[handbrake]

I've modified every car ive ever owned. Including the family people mover. Why? Because cars are projects to me. They are not devices that take me from A to B. They are opportunities to experiment, to learn, and to enjoy. It's like cooking, making home brew - if it's a passion, then seek to learn everything you can. Make mistakes along the way, push the envelope....after all this is the very essence of human achievement in every field.

Of course, there are those born to follow, to fit in line behind everyone else, follow someone elses recipe, accept the notion that you can't do any better, and to be frank humankind needs these people too.

So ghost run, don't go changing, because on the ship bound for new destinations we can always use someone to do the grinding.

haha very true.

Hell I just picked up an Audi Q7 and even though its my wifes car to ferry the kids in I cant help but think of modding that turbo diesel lol

might stop short of what they did to this Landcruiser though (aka 'landbruiser')

[GHOSTrun]

I've modified every car ive ever owned. Including the family people mover. Why? Because cars are projects to me. They are not devices that take me from A to B. They are opportunities to experiment, to learn, and to enjoy. It's like cooking, making home brew - if it's a passion, then seek to learn everything you can. Make mistakes along the way, push the envelope....after all this is the very essence of human achievement in every field.

Of course, there are those born to follow, to fit in line behind everyone else, follow someone elses recipe, accept the notion that you can't do any better, and to be frank humankind needs these people too.

So ghost run, don't go changing, because on the ship bound for new destinations we can always use someone to do the grinding.

I think you've got the wrong idea about me, nothing of mine stays standard. This was my last car:

Grey RB25 S1480 as seen in

Fast Fours Feature - Issue #200, December 2009

Autosalon Feature - Issue #83, February 2010

Whilst a good learning curve, it was wrong in so many ways. The S15 is coming along nicely though

Back on topic, summary; I just hope for a lot of people's sake they aren't robbing themselves of future developement, learning and enjoyment by taking the easy/quick way out now by upgrading parts unnecessarily and limiting the potential they could reach by missing out on the learning curve. I speak from experience (albeit very limited compared to some of the veterans on here) going back to basics and starting in a stock car has improved my driving a lot. For example, if I started learning to drift in car that simply had the power to spin the wheels there's no way I would be throwing it sideways in 4th gear at 120+km/h to initiate the slide.

[09GTR]

Handbrake, you have to mod the q7 - my family wagon is a ford territory turbo that can do 0 - 100 in 5.4 seconds, great for leaving wrxs and ss commodores in the dust off the line! It's loads of fun.

Ghostrun, you do make a good point actually. When I think about my kids, I want them to learn to drive a normally aspirated manual as soon as they are tall enough to reach the pedals ( on a farm somewhere) well before they can get a real license. Don't want them learning the ropes in modded cars on the road, that's for sure!

[ARTZ]

It applies to everyone, in fact I even posted this on 4 different car forums with different demographics to gauge what the repsonses would be. The general bias on the other three forums was that "yes, people should spend more time on their skills than trying to compensate by improving parts, which may or may not need to be improved..." etc.

Mate you have gone so far off on a tangent you are nowhere.

What?

Huh? So you know better than the engineers at Nissan?

So if you don't go fast and you don't enter Autosalon or drift it, where does that leave you...hardparking it?

What? What? Lol. Your posts just keep getting better.. :lol:

Glad you got a laugh

But seriously i do know what you mean, and although i dont really have the time or ,money to compete in any events as yet but I do drive alot...

What do i drive you ask...A 2004 mazda bravo ute, that has about 65rwkw on a good day..me an the ol gal have racked up 450,000kms in the last 5 years and i tell you it is amazing how much you learn about corner lines and how useful inertia is to getting around them quickly..

Also taught me alot about mechanical sympathy, especially now as shes getting old if you dont treat it right you feel her pain..The shocks are screwed making corner lines even harder these days, the engine makes weird noises if you dont load it up right or when you back of the throttle..Forget about modders for a second and think how many people just buy the latest and greatest machines to mask their poor driving skills, its easier to look good when the car does most of the work...

All this makes getting in my whale really really enjoyable...Maybe oneday ill get my 33 out on the track, but with all the flack you cop off people hardly seem worth straining it for no real result...Driving is driving and driving a powerless car that doesnt handle at full pelt is basically the same as driving car that has power and was built to handle , just things dont happen quite as fast..

So speed aside i believe skills are skills at the end of the day, doesnt matter if your doing 100km or 200km....And car personalization is the owners right, be it to mask skills or enhance them...

Edited September 25, 2010 by Arthur T3

[GHOSTrun]

Arthur my daily is '00 model suzuki carry van, 1.3L - I know exactly what you mean

What do you mean Re: "but with all the flack you cop off people hardly seem worth straining it for no real result", are you talking about people at the track saying shit for not being the quickest out there or something?

Forget about modders for a second and think how many people just buy the latest and greatest machines to mask their poor driving skills, its easier to look good when the car does most of the work...

This is why this topic is in the R35 section...... I've been through a lot of the build threads and just think to myself a lot of the cars are not being used to their full potential before the mods start, but each to their own.

Edited September 25, 2010 by GHOSTrun

[ARTZ]

Arthur my daily is '00 model suzuki carry van, 1.3L - I know exactly what you mean

Wanna race ...

What do you mean Re: "but with all the flack you cop off people hardly seem worth straining it for no real result", are you talking about people at the track saying shit for not being the quickest out there or something?

Yeah, came to this originally to gain some knowledge and membership needed to track a car, instead of support from car enthusiasts you get a bunch of people telling you your car will fall apart...which is true i didn't even get to the track and its falling apart...But that gave me reason to Mod it...could of just fixed the broken bits but that would be boring...

This is why this topic is in the R35 section...I've been through a lot of the build threads and just think to myself a lot of the cars are not being used to their full potential before the mods start, but each to their own....

Yeah it is true,but cars a re more of a hobby than just driving,Its like when your a kid and you build a lego spaceship, it was never going to fly but you still want to build one better than the other kid...

Edited September 25, 2010 by Arthur T3

[Misanthrope]

My Audi s5 is stock. (it gets me around to and from work)

My GTR R35 2010 is stock (so far...akrapovik exhaust and cobb tune later)...I want the sound and I might as well make the most of this beautiful exhaust...basic logic there.

My S15 2002 silver has 232rwkw. (I cant lap the tsukuba circuit in a stock S15 at its best...does that mean my mods were pointless? (rhetoric question clearly).

The reason I did the mods on my s15 is a due to this word...you may have heard it...E-M-O-T-I-O-N (its what drives us all) Dopamine release, Serotonin hitting those 5-hydroxytryptamine receptors. Its the essence of all human life. In short...it makes me feel good when that boost hits and the exhaust roars and my s15 pins me to the back of my seat. I smile...mission accomplished.

Just my opinion. 

any other non-GTR owners here care to tell us how to own and drive our GTRs? ...or spend our large wads of cash?

Peace brothers

[GHOSTrun]

My Audi s5 is stock. (it gets me around to and from work)

My GTR R35 2010 is stock (so far...akrapovik exhaust and cobb tune later)...I want the sound and I might as well make the most of this beautiful exhaust...basic logic there.

My S15 2002 silver has 232rwkw. (I cant lap the tsukuba circuit in a stock S15 at its best...does that mean my mods were pointless? (rhetoric question clearly).

The reason I did the mods on my s15 is a due to this word...you may have heard it...E-M-O-T-I-O-N (its what drives us all) Dopamine release, Serotonin hitting those 5-hydroxytryptamine receptors. Its the essence of all human life. In short...it makes me feel good when that boost hits and the exhaust roars and my s15 pins me to the back of my seat. I smile...mission accomplished.

Just my opinion. 

any other non-GTR owners here care to tell us how to own and drive our GTRs? ...or spend our large wads of cash?

Peace brothers

Nice, does your GTR reverse park itself too?

[LSX-438]

In my limited time spent on SAU, and perusing through the R35 GTR forums, I notice there are a lot of threads along the lines of;

- I want to upgrade my brakes

- How do I fix the understeer

- I want more power

etc.

From my understanding, Nissan engineers took a fairly stock standard GTR to Nurburgring and ran a 7:27.something lap time, which is pretty damn quick, and I'm guessing 99.9% of SAU GTR owners would not even come close to that. So is it not fair to say that these people should learn to drive their cars first before spending money on it trying to 'buy' skill?

No disrespect intended to SAU GTR owners as I'm sure there are some very accomplished drivers on the forums (and modding your car is half the fun of owning it! ), it's just an observation I've made and I think it is a relevant discussion point - more driving less modding?

Keen to hear your thoughts..

It's a sickness! probably the same reason i am up at 4:30am for a track day.

Btw, ever wonder what 120y owers wonder about your car... it's all relative... but essentially the same disease

[GTScotT]

any other non-GTR owners here care to tell us how to own and drive our GTRs? ...or spend our large wads of cash?

Bring it to me and I will teach you.