Motor Hot Tuner Challenge

[Nee-san]

It does not sound like you've ever raced a FWD vehicle because you don't seem to be aware of how the supposed deficiences can be used as benefits. Anyway, I'm not doing another rotary thread, enough has been said on my part for people to make up their own minds.

No I haven't my experiences are theoretical But I never said I had raced them, just explaining it as I understand it is all.

I never said FWD was shit, because obviously cars can be made genuinely quick in that guise, just that RWD and AWD are better.

[mad082]

you will find that part of the reason why fwd cars are kept lower powered is that gearboxes and drive shafts of fwd cars are generally weaker than rwd cars unless you spend big bucks on getting straight cut gears, etc.

as for the issue of fwd causing more loss of traction, if you start to get understeer in a rwd car (or are even just approaching the grip threshold of the front tyres), using the accelerator will cause more understeer, just like a fwd car. the only difference being that loss of traction during acceleration will cause oversteer, however the amount that it causes will vary.

fwd have the key advantage that they allow you to correct oversteer when braking/cornering better than rwd cars. in a rwd car you can only use the steering to try and catch it. in a fwd car you can use both steering and acceleration to catch it (like in the video i posted above).

i've owned many fwd and rwd cars over my time, done plenty of silly things in both. if you adapt your driving style to suit what you are driving then they are equally fast and fun. the only advantage from a performance point of view that the rwd has over a fwd is getting off the line as weight transfer aids the rwd with getting traction off the line.

[HEKT1K]

someone rename thread 'Why do FWDs suck?' gogogo

I agree with Peter89, ass-draggers are not for me.

[Nee-san]

you will find that part of the reason why fwd cars are kept lower powered is that gearboxes and drive shafts of fwd cars are generally weaker than rwd cars unless you spend big bucks on getting straight cut gears, etc.

This also is true, But it is generally because the FWD platform is unable to cope with higher power levels without massively compromising the steering and handling of the vehicle.

as for the issue of fwd causing more loss of traction, if you start to get understeer in a rwd car (or are even just approaching the grip threshold of the front tyres), using the accelerator will cause more understeer, just like a fwd car. the only difference being that loss of traction during acceleration will cause oversteer, however the amount that it causes will vary.

It physically cannot be more tractable as your both turning the tyre AND powering it at the same time, and think about this, forgetting the oversteer understeer situation for a minute and break it down for simplicities sake, go grab a bike and ride in a circle at a constant speed, now get on the same bike and ride double the speed.

Measure both circles, what has changed ? now think about how this applies to a corner radius and think about how the fundamental tendency of the RWD and FWD vehicles would effect your line through such a corner.

also consider that your steering inputs are bringing you to the limits of grip with your front tyres, by having the vehicle propelled through the same wheels you are only ever going to incur understeer and loss of traction, which also causes understeer,

fwd have the key advantage that they allow you to correct oversteer when braking/cornering better than rwd cars. in a rwd car you can only use the steering to try and catch it. in a fwd car you can use both steering and acceleration to catch it (like in the video i posted above).

i've owned many fwd and rwd cars over my time, done plenty of silly things in both. if you adapt your driving style to suit what you are driving then they are equally fast and fun. the only advantage from a performance point of view that the rwd has over a fwd is getting off the line as weight transfer aids the rwd with getting traction off the line.

there is also the packaging benefits (transmission wise) that north south vehicles have over most of their FWD counterparts, but that is secondary to our discussion.

I'm not arguing any of this to be a dick, or stir people up, this is simply what I have learnt some people may not agree and that's totally fine but I'm just putting this side of the opinion out there.

Cheers,

Mitch.

[hrd-hr30]

Golf on Ventus streets heaps quicker round Eastern Creek than a 12 sec STI on RE55s... didn't see that coming!?

nup Hankook Ventus semis. I was talking to them breifly as they were testing at Lakeside at a recent sprint before the Tuner Challenge. I wanted to know where they got the tyres...

must have been wet - 2minutes plus at EC is sloooooooooow!

[Fat_Tony]

How many factory cars have more than 350/400hp in an FWD? None.

How many supercars have FWD? None.

Ever seen an FWD F1 car? Nope.

FWD sucks.

Only reason to have FWD is because its cheap. Good packaging, i.e. east-west engine. No tunnell for driveline.

[mad082]

How many factory cars have more than 350/400hp in an FWD? None.

How many supercars have FWD? None.

Ever seen an FWD F1 car? Nope.

FWD sucks.

Only reason to have FWD is because its cheap. Good packaging, i.e. east-west engine. No tunnell for driveline.

1: how many factories have cars with that much power in RWD cars these days? not many, and those that are are generally quite a few hundred kgs heavier than most fwd cars. fwd cars don't need as much power to be fast since they are light to start with. also in 1970 there was a 400hp oldsmobile that was fwd.

2: fair enough

3: have you ever seen a 4wd F1 car? nope

4: i'm guessing you have never driven a decent FWD car and like rwd cars so you can do fully hektic skids to impress your boyfriend and/or 12 year old girls.

[Nee-san]

1: how many factories have cars with that much power in RWD cars these days? not many, and those that are are generally quite a few hundred kgs heavier than most fwd cars. fwd cars don't need as much power to be fast since they are light to start with. also in 1970 there was a 400hp oldsmobile that was fwd.

2: fair enough

3: have you ever seen a 4wd F1 car? nope

4: i'm guessing you have never driven a decent FWD car and like rwd cars so you can do fully hektic skids to impress your boyfriend and/or 12 year old girls.

1: at the flywheel, there are probably a fair few just look at the range in Australia and America, not to mention a heap of the Japanese saloons, but FWD cars are generally light because they cant handle higher power levels, hence they are required to be light to make up for the deficiencies in handling and power.

3:I get the feeling that If they could run 4wd within the F1 regs, they would.

4:Not true, if he had an Asian boyfriend or 12 year old chick, an Integra type R or Civic type R would go down fine I'm sure

[Fat_Tony]

Opposite lock > Torque steer.

[SRS13]

Talk about a thread hijack!

I don't particularly like how some other workshops were not allowed entry yet some that were had 2 car representing. It's a shame that it was raining but there is not much they can do about that. Despite the anomalies in the testing, cost of the parts and possible bias of which cars/tuners are represented, I think it's great that a mainstream magazine is featuring an event with heavily modified cars from various workshops.

I'd much rather read about these cars than a stock Porsche Boxster, TT or HSV etc. I just wish they had a separate article for each of the cars so you knew exactly which car you were reading about.

[NickR33]

nup Hankook Ventus semis. I was talking to them breifly as they were testing at Lakeside at a recent sprint before the Tuner Challenge. I wanted to know where they got the tyres...

must have been wet - 2minutes plus at EC is sloooooooooow!

ah fair enough... the Ventus road tyres are great, interested to see what the semis are like

[warps]

LOL at the RWD muppets.

Anyone who has tried to drive a FWD on a race track can come here and sh!t can them - anyone else can go and get an education.

Birds is 100% correct - FWD has huge potential, and in fact their driving style lends them to being very effective, specially on slippery tracks.

FWD > RWD on gravel - that fact is indisputable. The best FWD rally cars are pushing out maybe 200BHP (at the flywheel) whereas there are plenty of RWD rally cars putting out over double that. The FWD's are still very competitive with them.

My most recent example is a dirt sprint I did at Willowbank 2 weeks ago. My poxy 120kW (1000+kg) Civic was 5th fastest on the day (out of 35 or so cars), beaten by one very well driven rally escort, anda bunch of 4wd turbos. After the 4th run of the day, I was 3rd fastest with only 2 of the AWD turbos in front of me, but I copped penalties in the last 2 runs by running over the witches hats so dropped to 5th at the end of the day. I still managed to beat the rest of the 4WD turbos (WRX's), and all of the other RWD's competing on the day. I know, many of the other cars were road spec, and mine is "rally spec", but there was one very well driven Silvia rally car (admittedly still in development) which I was consistantly beating, and I can guarantee that it had nothing to do with driver skill (the Silvia driver has more Australian Rally champinships under his belt than I do). This was my second ever time on gravel in this car, and 3rd time ever driving it in anger, so driver skill had little to do with my success.

If you think about driving in slippery conditions, you'll find that the inherent "weaknesses" of FWD layout (ie they power understeer) are actually a big advantage. When you go in to a corner too hard in a RWD, you have to dance on the throttle as the tail tries to overtake the front. When you do the same in a FWD, you have to drive it even harder to avoid spinning. So, basically, in a FWD, go into the corner too fast, then drive even faster to avoid spinning. Which do you think is going to ccome out of the corner faster?

As for race track success - well I have very limited experience to draw on, and I'll admit hat the high hp RWD's walked all over me at the one and only track day I've ever done in a FWD. I do know, however, that there are some very quick FWD IPRA cars, competing along with the same set of rules as the RWD's.

I get that some people hate FWD's and I'm not going ot try to convert them. I myself am a die hard RWD guy, and bought the civic so my kids could get into motorsport as they get older. Proiblem is, driving this car is the most fun I've ever had in a car (including several RWD rally cars) so I'm not so sure I want to give it up for my kids.

As I said at the start, if you're going to sh!t can a FWD race car, then have a go at one first. They're not for everybody, but you might be surprised how fast and fun they can be. As for torque steer, well mine has a tiny amount, but all it means is that you actually concentrate on holding the wheel steady while threading the car through the trees, rather than reefing at the wheel like I used to in the old RWD's. And the power understeer wasn't even noticeable on tarmac - must be all that power I've got.

[simpletool]

Did they have any standard cars to compare against?

I would have thought a flash tune Evo X with nice exhaust and a good wheel alignment complete with sway bar or a few bushes would have done better than all of them.....and a flat 13. Perhaps someone should have done an E85 tune Evo X. But I must be wrong.

[JET200]

Draga were done on day 1 with dry track

All circuit and skidpan were done on torrential rain with a flooded track. Many cars had semi slicks on and were useless around the circuit. Stock Libert GT faster than a Porsche Turbo in those conditions!!

Also videos of the event on ninemsn motoring section