Got My Car Running. (e85 Guru's)

[STATUS]

not even that. e85 loves being rich, seen heaps of cars make more power going richer. most recent one that comes to mind was an R35 that kept gaining power as it was fattened up near 10:1 (on a lambda scale calibrated for petrol obviously). i *think* with E85, EGT's come into it more. its not balancing A:F ratio and hp, but EGT's sort of make it 3 dimensional if that makes sense?

interesting, we just did some testing on a S14. i will list the below in afr even though we use lambda

bp98 230rwkw on 16psi @ 11.8afr

E85 252rwkw on 16psi @ 12.4afr

E85 244rwkw on 16psi @ 12.1 afr

E85 239.9rwkw on 16psi @ 11.8afr

no timing changes.

[JonnoHR31]

339rwkw? surely thats a typo?

[wolverine]

339??

[O2 Autosports]

i'm guessing you mean 239.9 @ 11.8afr

[STATUS]

339rwkw? surely thats a typo?

yup, fixed.

[JonnoHR31]

makes more sense. also makes sense to go a bit leaner with ethanol, theres still a lot more of it going in and its not like you get any knock issues with it

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

yup as stated i made 323rwkw in an internally standard Rb25 on e85 with an HKS 2835 pro s on 19psi

555cc injectors were at 92%

[scotty nm35]

True, 12+ is fine. i tune in lambda though so 0.84 on E85. We have found atm that pump e85 is a little more like e75 so we fatten it up abit we are seeing a 0.5-0.7 jump in afr or 0.05 lambda towards LEAN when refilling with e85 so be aware.

It seems I am the only customer of Springvale Caltex so I dont think it will be a problem for quite a while. I hope the stuff doesnt go off like petrol...

If I set the winter blend for around 11.5 it should work out around 12.0 - 12.2 on e85, that would be fine right?

[STATUS]

It seems I am the only customer of Springvale Caltex so I dont think it will be a problem for quite a while. I hope the stuff doesnt go off like petrol...

If I set the winter blend for around 11.5 it should work out around 12.0 - 12.2 on e85, that would be fine right?

yeah thats what we are doing (source of fuel is the same) until we can get a 100% fix on ethanol content.

[j2fast]

interesting, we just did some testing on a S14. i will list the below in afr even though we use lambda

bp98 230rwkw on 16psi @ 11.8afr

E85 252rwkw on 16psi @ 12.4afr

E85 244rwkw on 16psi @ 12.1 afr

E85 239.9rwkw on 16psi @ 11.8afr

no timing changes.

from my personal experiance i have tested with leaner vs richer and i did see about 20hp gain on richer being that you add alot more timing bout you will loose hp if you do not add any timing when making it richer

[rad100]

and thats were i think im at. was made richer and no change from 98 timing.

i have a feeling mine was tuned from 98 to e85 with minimal adjustments.

[GTScotT]

interesting, we just did some testing on a S14. i will list the below in afr even though we use lambda

bp98 230rwkw on 16psi @ 11.8afr

E85 252rwkw on 16psi @ 12.4afr

E85 244rwkw on 16psi @ 12.1 afr

E85 239.9rwkw on 16psi @ 11.8afr

no timing changes.

From what reading I have done, E85 is rather different from 98. 98 has a sweet spot where it burns well with AFRs of 11 - 12.5 out the tail pipe (11 being a guess because I forget the actual figure) where anything inbetween is good for making peak torque or power.

Now I also forget the exact numbers for E85, however the lean max and rich max suposedly have a massive gap between them with a small tollorance for each. For example rich max being say 7:1, lean max being 13:1 and running at say 10:1 would acheive poor results.

I noticed this when trying to work out why people were pulling almost ALL timing out of their tunes to run the E85 while using a 'reasonable' AFR.

Realistically I know hardly anything about the fuel and dont plan to, yet its interesting how wildly its properties vary from 98.

[simpletool]

I think everyone should stop listing AFR's for E85 in the petrol scale. Please list only Lamba - which for max power would be about 0.85 lambda (AFR = 8.3 for E85!!!, but 12.5 for petrol)

The AFR people are quoting is grossly incorrect and will only cause problems with understanding.

There should be less need to go richer than 0.85 lamba with E85 as putting a ratio of 8.3 :1 air to E85 in your car will result in better cooling than petrol at 11.0:1 (ie. the reason people run rich is already covered when using E85 since it's runs more fuel to air anyway).

To answer the OPs question. You should expect bang on 300rwkw with that setup and fuel change. About 10% increase for changing to E85 running 0.85 lambda with both.

Yes, this is coming from a keyboard warrior - not dyno operator. But the chemistry make sense to me.

Topic 2.

Joeyjoejoe's 555cc injectors must be freaks, or the rail pressure is higher than the injectors rated pressure. With a 5% denser fuel but requiring about 45% more mass, you'd need 38% more volume. So you're 555cc should only provide enough petrol equivalent power as 405cc injectors (ie. maybe 250rwkw but certainly not 320rwkw). But then injectors are a dynamic thing and hard to calculate flow theoretically.

740cc injectors on the other hand should be PLENTY for 320rwkw or so (if your pump can supply it).

Edited September 29, 2010 by simpletool

[simpletool]

From wiki (but significant figures improved):

Table:

The following table shows the range of air fuel ratios typically used for burning gasoline, E85, and pure ethanol (E100) under an assortment of assumed operating conditions:

Edited September 29, 2010 by simpletool

[Brezza]

From what I've read about e85 is that people are getting great results over BP98 because in most cases they've hit the limit of boost where they can not put anymore boost in otherwise the engine will ping.

So then they go and change injectors, fuel pump and run e85. Add 5psi of boost and take timing out and get an extra 30-40kw out of the car. So from what i've read its the high octane that allows people to run much higher boost and take advantage of the timing differences and get more power.

If you dont change the boost level too much then I doubt there will be much of a difference in power just from changing the fuel?

i went from getting consistently between the 300-310 range @ 18-19psi, but when i changed AFM's and started using E10 or 100 octane fuel and turned the boost up to 21-22 i am in the 340-350rwkw range

so if I personally were to change to e85 i would be wanting to turn the boost up to 24+ and try for 380rwkw

[Harey]

From what I've read about e85 is that people are getting great results over BP98 because in most cases they've hit the limit of boost where they can not put anymore boost in otherwise the engine will ping.

So then they go and change injectors, fuel pump and run e85. Add 5psi of boost and take timing out and get an extra 30-40kw out of the car. So from what i've read its the high octane that allows people to run much higher boost and take advantage of the timing differences and get more power.

If you dont change the boost level too much then I doubt there will be much of a difference in power just from changing the fuel?

i went from getting consistently between the 300-310 range @ 18-19psi, but when i changed AFM's and started using E10 or 100 octane fuel and turned the boost up to 21-22 i am in the 340-350rwkw range

so if I personally were to change to e85 i would be wanting to turn the boost up to 24+ and try for 380rwkw

No, the 20-40kw gains are on the same boost level. E85 allows more timing and/or boost due to its higher octane.

[rad100]

so should i get my car re-tuned before my track day thurs? or is it fine?

[Harey]

so should i get my car re-tuned before my track day thurs? or is it fine?

Your tuner would have had to adjust the fuelling to change from 98 to E85. It wouldnt make the power it is now if hadnt been done.

If the timing is a little low thats great for a track day, extra security. The low boost of 15psi is also good for the track day extra security.

Give it hell on thursday and you know in the back of your mind there is plenty left in it.

[rad100]

[STATUS]

from my personal experiance i have tested with leaner vs richer and i did see about 20hp gain on richer being that you add alot more timing bout you will loose hp if you do not add any timing when making it richer

this was just to test A/F. It was not a normal tuned to each a/f as such (hence why i added no timing changes at the bottom)... customer just wanted to run a few runs a different a/f's to compare out put. Best way would have been to fully tune it at each A/F but it was a freebie so i wasn't able to donate the required time to do it. Car was left @ 0.84 as this is where it works best.... yes it will take more timing when its richer but E85 will take like 5 or more degrees after it peaks without any gains.