[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[GTScotT]

I think you may want to re-read that post, because if you wrote it correctly it means you really have NO IDEA what you're talking about. If, somehow you got the names confused.... you're forgiven, we all make mistakes.

Go sell something man lol

EDIT: If you are implying your manifolds are handmade and 6boost are not or that you do not work on supply and demand, perhaps you can UP SELL I mean explain why your website notes ROBITICALLY TIG WELDED and shows shelves of premade manifolds.

I have a quote with a 4 week lead time from 6 boost to create the manifold I have asked for, factory position SR (omg so custom).

[Lithium]

LMAO at some of the people you are calling kiddies, especially with some of the stuff you come out with. You're quite a rattly can at times

Those are two different collectors for different applications, for a start. One is a 3>1 manifold and the other is a twin scroll 6cyl manifold.

[juggernaut1]

At the outset I've owned both brands of manifolds and are both arguably the best on the market.

The 6Boost is the better finished manifold IMO. I tidied up the twin scroll Full-Race mani with a die grinder before fitting it to my S15 - not required with the 6 Boost.

Whether the differences in finish between the two results in a shred of performance difference remains to be seen though.

I still have the twin scroll twin gate Full-Race mani on my S15 and couldn't be happier with the way it spools a 3076 on an SR.

[TheKeeper]

Go sell something man lol

EDIT: If you are implying your manifolds are handmade and 6boost are not or that you do not work on supply and demand, perhaps you can UP SELL I mean explain why your website notes ROBITICALLY TIG WELDED and shows shelves of premade manifolds.

I have a quote with a 4 week lead time from 6 boost to create the manifold I have asked for, factory position SR (omg so custom).

You simply have NO IDEA what you are talking about . EVERY SINGLE MANIFOLD made by Full Race Motorsports is HAND MADE. EVERY SINGLE ONE. What you are so ignorantly referring to is the fact that we robotically tig weld the RUNNERS. It's a better process, better penetration and more consistent from weld to weld, manifold to manifold. The pictures (as Lithium stated) are completely different manifolds, with completely different runners. Not only that, the fact that you think there is one thing in that picture that looks robotic is laughable. Everything in that pic was done by hand. The prep, the fitting, the welding, the cartridge rolling, porting, polishing. Look... I try to play nice, but your statement is so outlandish I can only assume, once again... YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Now.... for your second statement. EVERY SINGLE ONE of those manifolds you see in pictures on shelves were handmade. Two years ago we were always 8-16 weeks to deliver. Geoff and I have done a LOT of changes to the crew, the shop layout, the equipment, and thusly have quadrupled our output to keep up with demand. Now when someone calls us, I have it on the shelf... you know, because I'm smart like that.

When you don't know... ask.

[GTScotT]

I am yet to rubbish your product, and have even stated I would happily own either. If you cannot uphold professionality when representing a company of Full Race's stature perhaps you should reconsider posting on this forum.

This is not a US based rice burner forum, there are a lot of intelegent individuals who are going to be willing to have a stab at an overzealous sponsor. Something you will need to accept.

I make no mention to design difference, yet as stated by juggernaut1, the 6boost item IS A BETTER FINISH. At the end of the day, even my original comment is based on the FINISH of the collector.

Show me perfect seams, show me no need for a 'tidy up' once built, and I will agree the finish of your product is equal to that of the 6boost. Perhaps I would even pay the additional for the better looking exterior and badge.

You may also want to review the wording on your website, it reads very 'machine made'. Seeing as you have clarified the overstocked shelves and 'robotic welds', I will retract my opinion on those items (however non accusing).

Last thing to note, to make your posts so utterly personal, you really do drag down your companies image and for that I pitty you.

[TheKeeper]

I am yet to rubbish your product, and have even stated I would happily own either. If you cannot uphold professionality when representing a company of Full Race's stature perhaps you should reconsider posting on this forum.

This is not a US based rice burner forum, there are a lot of intelegent individuals who are going to be willing to have a stab at an overzealous sponsor. Something you will need to accept.

I make no mention to design difference, yet as stated by juggernaut1, the 6boost item IS A BETTER FINISH. At the end of the day, even my original comment is based on the FINISH of the collector.

Show me perfect seams, show me no need for a 'tidy up' once built, and I will agree the finish of your product is equal to that of the 6boost. Perhaps I would even pay the additional for the better looking exterior and badge.

You may also want to review the wording on your website, it reads very 'machine made'. Seeing as you have clarified the overstocked shelves and 'robotic welds', I will retract my opinion on those items (however non accusing).

Last thing to note, to make your posts so utterly personal, you really do drag down your companies image and for that I pitty you.

I came here to help, and to talk about the BW turbos. I never even mentioned my affiliation with Full Race until it was brought up. I'm NOT on here as a sponsor, I was trying to inform the members here on what we have seen on our test cars. It wasn't until late in the thread that the conversation turned to Full Race manifolds. I wasn't looking to talk about them, and I am still not looking to talk about them. Your post was in gross error.

You can take it personally all you wish, but it was all straight to the point. Not a dig at you personally, I'm sure you're a swell guy... just wrong.

I never even mentioned the competition, not once actually. I'm sure they make a nice product. I was simply pointing out your inaccurate opinion.

Edited July 22, 2011 by TheKeeper

[juggernaut1]

Lets move on and keep the thread on topic

Edited July 22, 2011 by juggernaut1

[TheKeeper]

Lets move on and keep the thread on topic

Done.

[SimonR32]

LMAO at some of the people you are calling kiddies, especially with some of the stuff you come out with. You're quite a rattly can at times

Those are two different collectors for different applications, for a start. One is a 3>1 manifold and the other is a twin scroll 6cyl manifold.

LOLWUT!

A twin scroll 6cyl manifold is just 2 x 3>1... So they are the same design in merge

[bigmikespec]

So what is the dealio with these turbos, antilag and warranty?!

^^^

[Beer Baron]

Why did they ditch the twins?

a few reasons. one I really wanted to try the new EFR gear so I pushed hard for that avenue and came to an arrangement with Borg Warner. We have been very happy with twins on that car and their performance was unquestionable. The downside was weight and packaging constraints. even on a full house race car removing and replacing a standard style twin turbo set-up is many hours work. a single turbo set-up with v-band can have the turbo off in minutes and the whole lot in maybe an hour or so. Another reason was quest for a bit more power and also hopefully smooth out the transition onto boost as the midrange was pretty savage with twins to the point where we thought traction might benefit from a slightly smooth curve. the 9180 flows 96lb/min which is more than the -10s could supply. yet another reason was simplicity of piping and plumbing which again saves time in remove/replace and also saves some weight.

[TheKeeper]

LOLWUT!

A twin scroll 6cyl manifold is just 2 x 3>1... So they are the same design in merge

Agreed, but there is a little "yes and no" to that statement. They both have 3 runners into 1, yes, but the runners have to be completely different. The single you have the challenge of marrying the correct runners and still making it fit. Strangely enough it's harder to do it on the twin manifolds because of the packaging constraints of fitting both turbos top mount, getting the down piping out of the engine bay, and clearing things like a/c units, power steering pumps, and motor mounts. Neither is easy, but they are very different. It would be nice if we had the latitude on the twins that we do on the single manifold, but we don't. Just ask our fabricators...

[Beer Baron]

Sounds like it was a good idea by that initial report - when is tuning likely to be completed?

A decent single twin scroll turbo is the main thing that has been missing from that car's setup which has managed to have it not holding a special place in my "Man that this is so cool I wish I had one just like it" list

well it has a 'decent' twin scroll on it now we hope. though really twin turbos are the ultimate twin scroll set-up! can't get a more divided hosuing than that and the firing order on a RB26 lends itself to twin parallel turbos very well.

tuning will have to be completed bloody soon as WTAC is in a scant 2 weeks!!!

[juggernaut1]

Another reason was quest for a bit more power and also hopefully smooth out the transition onto boost as the midrange was pretty savage with twins to the point where we thought traction might benefit from a slightly smooth curve.

Yes it always looked a bit of a handfull coming out of corners - traction always seemed an issue.

Typically twin scroll setups provide a a more progressive and predictable power curve, even if not outright power. So sounds like a step in the right direction.

Edited July 22, 2011 by juggernaut1

[TheKeeper]

^^^

bigmike quoting himself. I love that! Mike, there had been a few failures at first with the small turbos and BorgWarner has been GREAT to work with. New turbos were sent out and the failures were sent to BW for inspection. A couple have been installer error (and they were able to prove it) and they still replaced the turbo because it's such a new product. (for now) Each time Full Race sells one now we have a conversation with the installer if we feel they may not have the knowledge needed to install the turbo. It's scary how many don't.

I have never had luck getting warranty conversations started with the other companies like I have with BW. I don't expect failures to be commonplace, but I do know the boys at BW are VERY interested in where each of these turbos go and how they'll be used as they trickle out. They want all the data from end use they can get. We had quite a few in place before they launched the turbos, so they had a jump on some "real world" applications early on.

[Lithium]

A twin scroll 6cyl manifold is just 2 x 3>1... So they are the same design in merge

Look at the size of the outlet of the collector on the single 3>1 manifold versus the collectors on each of the twin scroll one - the size and shape is quite different, which will affect the design. Its basically a packaging thing, for example people with Hondas can get awesome big tube long primary 4>1 extractors for their cars yet if you drop a VH41 into your S13, odds are the manifold design is going to have to be different due to packaging and requirements from it.

Surely I shouldn't need to spell that out?

[bigmikespec]

Just wondering if they will void warranty if they see that the turbo is subjected to antilag. That is a pretty straight forward question you could ask BW?

Next question is if the Full-Race manifolds would be up to the task

[Beer Baron]

seriously scott. what the hell? You say you're not being insulting but you made remarks such as "Fact is, 6b are hand made and FR are machine made" which is clearly not true, you referenced a 'rice burner US forum' whatever the hell that is, you told TheKeeper to "Go sell something man". I would think all of those comments were insulting to a degree.

All TheKeeper was doing was correcting something which you 'stated as fact' despite having never owned either manifold. have you even seen either in the flesh? I'm also not sure what on earth lead time has to do with anything? I would rather be able to order and receive something straight away rather than wait 4 weeks? it doesn't change how the product is made. It just means FR can afford to manufacture items for stock where as 6boost just make to fill orders. I am still baffled as to how that's a measure of quality?

TheKeeper's only somewhat personal remark was that you didn't know what you're talking about. since you stated something as fact which was wrong and also stated you have never owned either manifold I don't think that was too unfair.

The fact that FR manifold runners are robotic tig welded is an advantage. anyone who thinks a hand welded runner is better needs to go back to welding school. I also can't see how they could weld the collectors anyway other than by hand. it's the straight welds around the runners that are robotically welded and I had no trouble understanding that the first time I read it on their site.

Anyway, perhaps just try and be a touch respectful of other people? insulting the US car scene (which is far larger and more diverse than our own...) is not the way to get a point across.

I'll also give my own opinion on the manifolds. and yes I have owned both and also physically examined a number of each of the current ones I would say the finishing on the Full race stuff is as good as 6boost or better. they both use different materials so it's hard to directly compare and as I also stated before I'd happily use either and have happily recommended both in the past. 6boost has not been completely free of fitting or finishing issues though either but like all good manufacturers Kyle works hard to fix them.

I recently got 3 manifolds (1 6 cyl TS mani and 1 pair of 3cyl manis for a 6cyl engine) all 3 needed no additional finishing anywhere in the collectors etc.

Anyway, this thread is not about Full Race manifolds and it's most certainly not about Full Race Manifolds Vs 6Boost manifolds. Plus I think we all agree they are both fantastic products. so let's stop arguing. borg warner and full race's input into threads like this is highly valued just as any manufacturers input is valued. We certainly don't expect users to censor their opinions because of their presence but we do expect people to be respectful and courteous. so bear that in mind please. I don't expect anyone to have to suffer discourtesy on our forum and TheKeeper has 100% kept to the rules and has not plugged his products or solicited sales.

Let's continue talking about something interesting.....

[Beer Baron]

Just wondering if they will void warranty if they see that the turbo is subjected to antilag. That is a pretty straight forward question you could ask BW?

Next question is if the Full-Race manifolds would be up to the task

I reckon they would void warranty if the damage was caused by the anti-lag. I don't think any turbo manufacturer would warranty a turbo for use with anti-lag as there is no doubt it's a destructive force on turbines and manifolds. it's proven to reduce component life. manifold pressure and temp skyrockets as does turbine temp. still plenty of people run it with other turbos and just replace them more often...

[TheKeeper]

Just wondering if they will void warranty if they see that the turbo is subjected to antilag. That is a pretty straight forward question you could ask BW?

Next question is if the Full-Race manifolds would be up to the task

BorgWarner is well aware that these turbos will be subject to anti-lag and asked us to subject them to anti-lag in our testing. They held up fine, but Anti-lag thus far has not been questioned for warranty denial. Not to say it won't be, but has not been denied yet. The turbos are so new to the public, BorgWarner is doing all they can to work WITH the public vs. against them. So far, it's been great dealing with them on this new product.

Full Race manifolds see more anti-lag in the states than you could ever imagine. Ever. And less than 1% come back.

Edited July 22, 2011 by TheKeeper