[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[GTScotT]

I can assure you that the late night emails to AU and the early morning calls to BW to do what I can for you are most likely going to come to an end sooner than later. You may have vented too soon.

I hope youve done some big racing in your time, you may need to dig out the flame proof suit again.

I can see nothing more than this comment instantly making you the vilain and St John himself becoming the...... Saint?

Not taking anyones side, shit go for all and my disapointment lies in the product alone. Maybe ask Kando Dynamic if he can supply new shafts?

[bri73y]

Brett,

It's your call what you do, clearly........

If your conscience is ok with walking away from my situation knowing full well I've been shafted (pardon the pun) then so be it.

I'm sure all your potential customers would be happy to read your comments above.

So sorry to have complained, but after 4 months of near nothing I'm pretty sure most people in my position would be upset, and rightfully so.

I'm not going to apologise for posting this stuff, it's the truth, it happened, you know it happened, and you also know, as do BW, that the both of you sold a product that was faulty.

In my business, when we sell a product that is faulty we do everything we can to rectify the situation with the customer first, then deal with the supplier later until we as a company are satisfied with the outcome.

That was clearly not the case in this instance.

As I said, your call what you do, but ask yourself this, if you were me what would you have expected or done after 4 months and $20k ??

[Lithium]

Cheers for posting, and gutted to hear about your luck - at least by sharing its helpful to know given there is still clearly no guarantee things are going to get any smoother. I feel like almost all that needs to be said has been for any people who aren't already committed to EFR kits, really. I know I'm convinced.

Particularly disappointing to hear the new ones are really laggy?! Did any of the previous ones go well enough to justify any amount of effort over "competitor" units before the failures?

[N1GTR]

John, have you got any dyno sheets from all of this please? So they can be compared to a typical Garrett sheet and both being on Australian dynos

Also, given the chance would you go back to your previous setup? Based on performance only, not the cost

[TheKeeper]

Brett,

It's your call what you do, clearly........

If your conscience is ok with walking away from my situation knowing full well I've been shafted (pardon the pun) then so be it.

I'm sure all your potential customers would be happy to read your comments above.

So sorry to have complained, but after 4 months of near nothing I'm pretty sure most people in my position would be upset, and rightfully so.

I'm not going to apologise for posting this stuff, it's the truth, it happened, you know it happened, and you also know, as do BW, that the both of you sold a product that was faulty.

In my business, when we sell a product that is faulty we do everything we can to rectify the situation with the customer first, then deal with the supplier later until we as a company are satisfied with the outcome.

That was clearly not the case in this instance.

As I said, your call what you do, but ask yourself this, if you were me what would you have expected or done after 4 months and $20k ??

John,

Maybe you've been left out of the circle on a lot of this, and from your position it looks like BW has shit on you. That's not the case, and I have personally done more to help your situation than I can recall in recent past. I think there have been a lot of things that were not passed on to you about situations as they arose. Simply...You have a shop that wants to get paid for doing work, and you have a manufacture supplying them with what they need to get that job down. In the end, sometimes the end user can be left holding the bag. I have done what I can to keep that from happening, but there is only so much I or Full Race can do.

I just found your timing nothing but vengeful.

We recently convinced BW to ship two free turbos for your trouble (it was what BW was currently able to supply), and soon as you get those free turbos you start posting up like a man on a mission. That's fine, I just found it very interesting you wait until you feel you have got all that is coming your way, and out of nowhere start going off.

Your post was somewhat factual, I'll give you that. Like I stated originally.. maybe you were left out of the circle on a lot of the behind the scenes work.

Regardless, the one thing I have never been accused of (until now) is not being willing to help. I'm very fair, but your situation is a tough one for everybody involved.

I don't expect an apology, why would I?

As the saying goes, "you get more flies with honey than vinegar" and the first post you post directed at BW or FR was nothing but vinegar.

Not sure what kind of response you were looking for, but I feel you've gone about it the wrong way.

Flame away gents, you don't have all the facts and at this point probably never will. Anything posted on my end will most likely be twisted and misconstrued. It's the nature of the internet and forums. There were more haters in this thread since it's inception than people backing the idea of a new turbo from BW. Obviously since the failures that number hasn't decreased.

John... we told you we would make it right on the manifolds. We can work off what your current shop has had to do, or you can wait until we have a chance to fit some to the appropriate chassis. I cannot tell BW what to do, but they are willing to help to what extent they can. Reimbursing for labor is not on the agenda, it never has been. I don't know any company in the aftermarket business that does that, but I believe that was their intention when the sent the two free turbos. We all knew your situation was upsetting, but solving it was unchartered territory.

And as of now, it remains there.

[bri73y]

John, have you got any dyno sheets from all of this please? So they can be compared to a typical Garrett sheet and both being on Australian dynos

Also, given the chance would you go back to your previous setup? Based on performance only, not the cost

Dyno sheets were posted earlier in this thread, they clearly show the gains my car made with the EFR 6258s

The dyno they are on is particularly low reading so don't concern yourself with the figures just look at the differences in the curve.

As stated elsewhere my car has made over 450kw on two different dynos with it's old setup so the 6258s would make above that figure given the comparison on the dyno used for the EFR tune.

No, I didn't like the previous setup, hence the desire to change. I was running -10's that didn't make power until above 5000rpm.

Would I do it all again No, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[TheKeeper]

I hope youve done some big racing in your time, you may need to dig out the flame proof suit again.

I can see nothing more than this comment instantly making you the vilain and St John himself becoming the...... Saint?

Not taking anyones side, shit go for all and my disapointment lies in the product alone. Maybe ask Kando Dynamic if he can supply new shafts?

I have done some big time racing, but I think I'm too fat for my suit.

I stated it earlier, the shafts have never been the issue. The wheels were the issue, and the vendor that was manufacturing them was not following the strict parameters BorgWarner had in place. The shaft breaking was the result of wheel failures. None of this "helps" anything, but the issue has been rectified. We're pushing the new turbo wheels to 30psi daily, and thus far have not had a failure. BorgWarner is confident they have found a manufacture willing and able to produce them to exact specs, unfortunately they will trickle out of the plant, not pour.

[TheKeeper]

Dyno sheets were posted earlier in this thread, they clearly show the gains my car made with the EFR 6258s

The dyno they are on is particularly low reading so don't concern yourself with the figures just look at the differences in the curve.

As stated elsewhere my car has made over 450kw on two different dynos with it's old setup so the 6258s would make above that figure given the comparison on the dyno used for the EFR tune.

No, I didn't like the previous setup, hence the desire to change. I was running -10's that didn't make power until above 5000rpm.

Would I do it all again No, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Personally, I think the 6258's were made for the RB, unfortunately they didn't stick around long enough on your car to prove it. Had they not failed and the manifolds fit the R32 perfectly I honestly think you would be singing the praises, buuuut...that went a little "off track".

[FineLine]

John dont think for a minute that its any better on the other side of the fence. We went through even more pain with the garret product, It didn restrict itself to just turbos either, Engine damage every time one went to god.

Despite garret admitting their selection process was flawed they were not forthcoming with any recompense other than a discount on th next turbo.

I am not defending BW, I was so hoping they would be all that and more just so I could have the satisfaction of telling garret where to put it but there will need to be a lot more water under the bridge before I will be convinced that these turbos are the real deal.

Good luck with your car man, Sadly the bitterness will never leave but at least you can get to enjoying it again if you have the perseverance to see it through.

[bri73y]

John,

Maybe you've been left out of the circle on a lot of this, and from your position it looks like BW has shit on you. That's not the case, and I have personally done more to help your situation than I can recall in recent past. I think there have been a lot of things that were not passed on to you about situations as they arose. Simply...You have a shop that wants to get paid for doing work, and you have a manufacture supplying them with what they need to get that job down. In the end, sometimes the end user can be left holding the bag. I have done what I can to keep that from happening, but there is only so much I or Full Race can do.

I just found your timing nothing but vengeful.

We recently convinced BW to ship two free turbos for your trouble (it was what BW was currently able to supply), and soon as you get those free turbos you start posting up like a man on a mission. That's fine, I just found it very interesting you wait until you feel you have got all that is coming your way, and out of nowhere start going off.

Your post was somewhat factual, I'll give you that. Like I stated originally.. maybe you were left out of the circle on a lot of the behind the scenes work.

Regardless, the one thing I have never been accused of (until now) is not being willing to help. I'm very fair, but your situation is a tough one for everybody involved.

I don't expect an apology, why would I?

As the saying goes, "you get more flies with honey than vinegar" and the first post you post directed at BW or FR was nothing but vinegar.

Not sure what kind of response you were looking for, but I feel you've gone about it the wrong way.

Flame away gents, you don't have all the facts and at this point probably never will. Anything posted on my end will most likely be twisted and misconstrued. It's the nature of the internet and forums. There were more haters in this thread since it's inception than people backing the idea of a new turbo from BW. Obviously since the failures that number hasn't decreased.

John... we told you we would make it right on the manifolds. We can work off what your current shop has had to do, or you can wait until we have a chance to fit some to the appropriate chassis. I cannot tell BW what to do, but they are willing to help to what extent they can. Reimbursing for labor is not on the agenda, it never has been. I don't know any company in the aftermarket business that does that, but I believe that was their intention when the sent the two free turbos. We all knew your situation was upsetting, but solving it was unchartered territory.

And as of now, it remains there.

My timing was created from yet another disappointment and yet another soon to be issued Invoice from my mechanic. The additional turbos, whilst a nice gesture, (as I have said previously) doesn't help with the hole in my pocket.

Last week we fitted up the new 2012 turbos only to have issues on the dyno (as stated in an earlier post). When we found the problem, we then serviced the head, replaced retainers, valve springs, stem guides, etc etc we then ran the car on the dyno again only to find the new turbos were way more laggy than expected. They were reported to be between the 62s and 67s but that was clearly not the case as they didn't make power until 5700rpm. Disappointed again YES, more bills to come as a result YES. It's like a snowball rolling downhill out of control......

I even ceramic coated these ones as I thought they'd be staying on!!

Yes, you said you would make it right on the manifolds, as to on the GCG Invoice, but that was 4months ago so forgive me for thinking it was never going to eventuate. I mean really, how long does it take to process a credit or send a replacement turbo to GCG so they could in turn credit me ??

Anyway, it was never my intention to get into a slanging match, but merely present the facts.

Am I going to put the new 6258s on - YES, I've come this far so I may as well keep going

Left out of the circle, definately, but how am I to know if you don't tell me. I've never received an email or any type of correspondence from you personally, a couple from Geoff, that's all........

[bri73y]

John dont think for a minute that its any better on the other side of the fence. We went through even more pain with the garret product, It didn restrict itself to just turbos either, Engine damage every time one went to god.

Despite garret admitting their selection process was flawed they were not forthcoming with any recompense other than a discount on th next turbo.

I am not defending BW, I was so hoping they would be all that and more just so I could have the satisfaction of telling garret where to put it but there will need to be a lot more water under the bridge before I will be convinced that these turbos are the real deal.

Good luck with your car man, Sadly the bitterness will never leave but at least you can get to enjoying it again if you have the perseverance to see it through.

Thanks Noel.

[TheKeeper]

My timing was created from yet another disappointment and yet another soon to be issued Invoice from my mechanic. The additional turbos, whilst a nice gesture, (as I have said previously) doesn't help with the hole in my pocket.

Last week we fitted up the new 2012 turbos only to have issues on the dyno (as stated in an earlier post). When we found the problem, we then serviced the head, replaced retainers, valve springs, stem guides, etc etc we then ran the car on the dyno again only to find the new turbos were way more laggy than expected. They were reported to be between the 62s and 67s but that was clearly not the case as they didn't make power until 5700rpm. Disappointed again YES, more bills to come as a result YES. It's like a snowball rolling downhill out of control......

I even ceramic coated these ones as I thought they'd be staying on!!

Yes, you said you would make it right on the manifolds, as to on the GCG Invoice, but that was 4months ago so forgive me for thinking it was never going to eventuate. I mean really, how long does it take to process a credit or send a replacement turbo to GCG so they could in turn credit me ??

Anyway, it was never my intention to get into a slanging match, but merely present the facts.

Am I going to put the new 6258s on - YES, I've come this far so I may as well keep going

Left out of the circle, definately, but how am I to know if you don't tell me. I've never received an email or any type of correspondence from you personally, a couple from Geoff, that's all........

Fair enough. I don't make it a habit to speak with the end user on a lot of things when there is a shop involved, I'm sure you understand that. I didn't get involved until the first failure, and truth be told we were hesitant to ship turbo ONE to AU in the first batch we had come in. It's just too far away for us to be able to step in and help. New manifolds, new turbo, new fitment, etc. But your situation was brought to us and we thought it was a perfect platform to get into circulation right away. (we have had nothing but stellar results on robustness with BW up to that point)

BW never had the intention to send a credit to GCG, and again you have not been in the loop on that, but it's easily rectified and explained. Please shoot me an email: brett AT full-race.com and I'll explain that one and anything else that isn't necessarily public. I don't mind open forum discussion, but some things are best handled one on one.

Like I said, I think the 6258's are a perfect match for your motor in my opinion. I'll be sure to get you a fresh set of manifolds after we build them to fit the R32 chassis. (I'll coat them before we ship them) It was probably not a fight "worth" fighting for the $$, but I think you'll find the performance very rewarding.

There's no way to convince the naysayers these turbos will not continue to fly apart, it's just going to take time and more and more positive results.

We'll just have to wait that out.

Seems to have been some lack of communication from Full Race (me) and you by the time it got to you.

Again...maybe a lesson learned for both of us.

[bigmikespec]

Aside from the issues obvious above, to draw something positive out of it, it seems that the 6258's are a good match to the RB26.

Has Full-Race officially offered the manifolds and turbochargers as a kit yet? What would pricing be like?

[Roy]

Nothing is worse than some new part failing on a car and then that pain being compounded by bills from mechanics. Sad to see that being a pioneer is proving so fraught with disappointment.

On the flipside, I wouldn't like to be a distributor of a product that is causing problems for the people you have sold them to. Its not like you are buying from Ding-Wang Rajakrishnakan from a shanty house on the hill. Its Borg Warner for gods sake and as distributor I cant imagine you expected there to be these problems with the product.

John: I just hope your car ends up in a state that means going forward it is ballistic and reliable. Wont make you forget this....but would not a bad asprin compared to going back to -10s etc

[Lithium]

Just to try and balance this out, and remind folks that these things do still have potential to be something special - a couple of recent vids from a car with a relatively small EFR6758:

Trapping at nearly 137mph on 29psi, E85:

And not particularly laggy:

[Harey]

Just to try and balance this out, and remind folks that these things do still have potential to be something special - a couple of recent vids from a car with a relatively small EFR6758:

Trapping at nearly 137mph on 29psi, E85:

And not particularly laggy:

Very Impressive!!

[Full-Race Geoff]

Its not like you are buying from Ding-Wang Rajakrishnakan from a shanty house on the hill. Its Borg Warner for gods sake and as distributor I cant imagine you expected there to be these problems with the product.

Im not the type of person to get into forum arguments but it seems you guys are villifying 'the keeper' and truthfully he was John's biggest stateside supporter.. so Ill briefly share my point of view of the events that transpired last July/Aug:

the (4) turbos that failed for john, were successive serial #s. we initially saw the first 2 turbos from this batch fail but we thought it was a freak occurence and had not seen it previously. none of the previous EFR turbos we've used had failed in this manner. John installed/killed the turbos and sent them back which was when bw learned that this batch of turbos had turbine wheels which the supplier did not follow strict mfg requirements. had we known about this prior to john the turbos from that batch and serial #s would not have shipped to him. Unfortunately we did not know, so the turbine wheels failed immediatley and now every EFR turbo that shipped since then has been verified by BW to use correct turbine wheel

Full-Race's twin turbo RB manifold was designed in R33/R34 engine bay. we did not know R32 fitment because we never had an R32 GTR to test on in the USA. In fact we've just recently imported an R32GTR clip to solve this fitment and make the install much easier for anyone who does this in the future.

john - I thought it was made clear to you and richard that a replacement manifold OR credit for your manifold would be issued to richard (he is the one that paid for the kit iirc) to help cover your time. Ive been the head of Full-Race for 10 years, we have never had this situation arise or done this before. Richard said he needed a single twinscroll turbo manifold and suggested we would apply your credit to that. fyi This twin turbo kit is not compatible with a dual stage 32GTR p/s pump obviously, any of the Rb single stage pumps would work- RB25 or 26.

Originally we told your installers or whomever purchased the manifolds from us we had only test fit them in an R34. Had you decided to jump ship at that point nobody would have been upset, since we had not had a chance to put them in an R32/33 it would have been understandable. Since you decided to forge ahead with making them fit, we felt obligated to do what we could to help. We also offered to build a second set for you that would fit your car if we could get a jig or a the set back that you had modified when the event was over to build them from.

that is what I recall also, build a second set for him, or issue a credit to richard... of course discussing/solving this through a public discussion forum is probably not the best course of determining that

I stated it earlier, the shafts have never been the issue. The wheels were the issue, and the vendor that was manufacturing them was not following the strict parameters BorgWarner had in place. The shaft breaking was the result of wheel failures. None of this "helps" anything, but the issue has been rectified. We're pushing the new turbo wheels to 30psi daily, and thus far have not had a failure. BorgWarner is confident they have found a manufacture willing and able to produce them to exact specs, unfortunately they will trickle out of the plant, not pour.

correct

Personally, I think the 6258's were made for the RB, unfortunately they didn't stick around long enough on your car to prove it. Had they not failed and the manifolds fit the R32 perfectly I honestly think you would be singing the praises

you have more experience running the twin 6258s on an RB than anyone else on the planet, so you know first-hand how well the combination works. I also agree that if John had just installed his 6258s this time around he would have been pleased. Instead he tried the larger 7163 turbos out, which in hindsight are clearly too big for his application and stock displacement 2.6L

Aside from the issues obvious above, to draw something positive out of it, it seems that the 6258's are a good match to the RB26. Has Full-Race officially offered the manifolds and turbochargers as a kit yet? What would pricing be like?

this kit has not been offered for sale publically, it will in 2012. The R32 GTR fitment is much tighter than R33 or R34, so thats why we brought this car in - to get the fitments perfect.

Just to try and balance this out, and remind folks that these things do still have potential to be something special - a couple of recent vids from a car with a relatively small EFR6758:

Trapping at nearly 137mph on 29psi, E85:

And not particularly laggy:

at first i did not believe it was possible to acheive their claimed dyno and quarter mile performance on the little 6758. ive had a lot of conversations with oem Auto mfg engineers and direct injection specialists lately who tell me otherwise. gasoline direct injection really changes what is possible

Edited November 17, 2011 by Full-Race Geoff

[Sub Boy32]

This sounds like it has been a stressful and expensive time for all three parties involved,

I hope the new set work out for you John, I can understand you being on the end of your tether.....I struggled waiting the nine months for it to arrive, and your story is compounded by a factor of 50!

As you said in previous posts they are the turbos to have, and being that they spool as quick or quicker than a -5 but give -10 power is proof of it.

I can also sympathize with Full-Race and Borg Warner, They never wanted this to happen, And no company certainly wants bad press for their products.....I'm guessing now BW have really upped the "over shoulder watching" from their contractors after the problems with the exhaust housings, and now the exhaust wheels.

How about a bit of a whip round lads? Post your PayPal details John.

[black bnr32]

Do garrett and other turbo 'manufacturers' outsource their manufacturing? does BW do any turbo manufacturing in house?

Edited November 18, 2011 by black bnr32

[Full-Race Geoff]

i dont know any turbo companies that can pour Ti, inconel or stainless steel - that is like asking if full-race makes our own header materials from ore

Edited November 18, 2011 by Full-Race Geoff