[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[GTScotT]

I disagree, I think it is a very reasonable assumption that the turbo manufacturer would make the wheels.

How else would they keep strict control of their QA requirements? Oh wait....

[djr81]

I disagree, I think it is a very reasonable assumption that the turbo manufacturer would make the wheels.

How else would they keep strict control of their QA requirements? Oh wait....

It is not a reasonable assumption. Given the metallurgy involved in the turbine wheels especially it is far more likely they would sub contract the work.

How do they keep QA under control - oh I dunno, maybe ISO 9001 has something to do with it.

i dont know any turbo companies that can pour Ti, inconel or stainless steel - that is like asking if full-race makes our own header materials from ore

What are you saying you dont have your own laterite nickel deposit?????????

[zebra]

ISO9001 means sweet fa....even half the shitbox china knock off factories have it these days

Bit like the Heart foundation tick.....lol

ISO 9001 is basically record keeping of past problems and a team who investigates them and communicates with customers etc.

Doesnt mean a NEW product won't be shit and fly to pieces 2 mins after you put it on, just means they have processes in place to find out why etc

Just means every product will be the same/similar in quality, instead of 1 in every 5 being shit.....in poor old BW's case they were all shit lol

nb - this is the very basic crux of the 9001 thingo

[Rolls]

His point was it most likely isn't financially feasible to make them yourself, it is much more cost effective to sub contract, unless of course you are planning on making billions of them.

[zebra]

Indeed BW would be silly to set up a factory for things like that, given the ever changing market place, much easier to give the job to the lowest bidder and pray all goes well lol

I really wish I could get inside BW HQ and find out the full story

[GTScotT]

Ofcoarse its cheaper or they would make it themselves.

We are talking about the opinion of an end user here, imagine telling someone your HKS turbo is actually a garrett unit which has parts outsourced from a little known engineering company in Cuba. How many people do you think will go for it? I still have people tell me that Garretts are only 'HKS Spec' and not the same thing.

Im just saying, lets not get clever because we know something the other person didnt. I really wouldnt say a turbine wheel not being made by the manufacturer is the same as a manifold manufacturer not making their own pipe.

Kind of like saying 'how can u expect Steggles chicken to distribute their own produce' vs. 'do you really think KFC breed their own chickens'. Completely different.

[skc]

Notwithstanding the issues which John has had, I have to say I am delighted with the performance of the 8374 EFR on my 2.01ltr IX. At 34psi it is making ~450kw atw peak, with over 300kw atw available at 4200rpm. Good enough for 288kph down Conrod weekend before last. With the right manifold, the extra displacement and exhaust pulse takt from a RB, an 8374 would be ab absolute track monster!!

[GTScotT]

Notwithstanding the issues which John has had, I have to say I am delighted with the performance of the 8374 EFR on my 2.01ltr IX. At 34psi it is making ~450kw atw peak, with over 300kw atw available at 4200rpm. Good enough for 288kph down Conrod weekend before last. With the right manifold, the extra displacement and exhaust pulse takt from a RB, an 8374 would be ab absolute track monster!!

Hi, I think I recognise you from Evo OZ.. Can you please provide us with some specs/photos/dyno sheets?

We would all love to see such a stellar result.

[djr81]

Kind of like saying 'how can u expect Steggles chicken to distribute their own produce' vs. 'do you really think KFC breed their own chickens'. Completely different.

No it is like saying your Nissan has, for example, brakes made by Sumitomo, an interccoler from Calsonic, turbos by Garret and so on. Subcontracting is the norm and is to be expected. What would it stop at some arbitrary level?

Anyway all this is wholely off topic. Best leave the people actually involved to resolve it as best they can and as they see fit.

[GTScotT]

I think your way off champ.

All I said was it is a reasonable assumption from an end user and made reference to an unfair comparison. Cant go acting high and mighty all the time like we would dream of.

And furthermore, I consider a turbine wheel to be an integral component to the turbo itself. Much like the body of a car, not the cars bolt on equipment. All I'm saying is as much as it is not the case, it is a reasonable assumption and not something to have a go about.

If you need to further clarify that you can re read all of the said posts and then we can stop wasting space talking about it, otherwise I'm more than happy to continually repeat logical discussion.

[R31Nismoid]

Bit naive to expect BW would make the wheels in house. It's bad business, that unfortunately in this case had bitten them on the bottom.

Look at Computer parts for example. The integral component of NVIDIA or AMD cards, is made by a TMSC on the respective companies specification/design.

[T04GTR]

so does 'garrett" have there own foundry? or is that honeywell. what about ihi? what about mitsubishi?. i would of thought that since borg warner turbos is kkk,schwitzer and colaboration with holset. that they would have a pretty solid manufacturing facility.

time will tell. im sure it will sort its self out before garrett takes up the challenge. i wish they would just put there ball bearing cores in the sx range.

kind of funny that the have the toughest and weakest range all at the same time. lol

[GTScotT]

No wonder AMD and NVIDIA rock! They come from the motherland just like the Kando!

What comes before Mtsubishi? MHI or IHI? If they can build ships I would assume they can poor some steel lol.

Sounds kind of juvenile when you think about it really..... Instead of what you expect from R&D its hey what about this Ti Al compound? OH YEAH PLACE AN ORDER! I wonder how many times they altered the chemical compound of the wheel to net the best results (heat resistance/tensile strength). One would assume had they gone to that extent they may have known the wheels would shit themselves, unless they literally put their ideas to paper and orders 'speced' parts to suit. Sounds to be the case when you think about it long and hard enough..

Maybe this useless argument has some good founded purpose after all, BW need to manufacture their shit themselves.

[Rolls]

It sounds more like a simple machining tolerance that wasn't to spec causing them to be out of balance. Manufacturing a turbine wheel isn't so complex that you have to build your own foundry with your own QA to get it right, you just find a willing manufacturer.

The obviously did their R&D on limited runs, found they worked fine, then had to find a different manafacturer to produce the 1000s that they required, the new manafacturer didn't conform to spec, hence failures.

Makes sense to me.

[GTScotT]

Pretty sure it makes low level sense to everyone.

Problem is, IMHO, they should have always known about the issue long before the products hit the market.

[T04GTR]

anyway, back on efr specifics.

[Angus Smart]

Indeed BW would be silly to set up a factory for things like that, given the ever changing market place, much easier to give the job to the lowest bidder and pray all goes well lol

I really wish I could get inside BW HQ and find out the full story

Wikileaks! haha

[GTScotT]

Wikileaks! haha

BW CEO daughter stat rape case 101

[Angus Smart]

So is there really any Efr's out there at the moment that actually work?

apparently its finally time i get my engine back and i'll be needing a turbo 8374 was looking good...

[Lithium]

Here are some results for a twin scroll internally gated EFR8374 on a K20A Honda, with both pump gas and C16 results. I personally think that most of the results which haven't resulted in failure on the medium frame EFRs are still not showing anything to separate themselves from the other good turbos on the market at this stage.

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=97724

This is definitely a good result, however - and I find it interesting they chose not to show the power figures of the other turbos they had boost plots for either.