[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[NismoSTune]

No, there are just a lot of Precision fanbois that insist that without providing any solid proof. The Precisions are proven to perform really well but their prices aren't ultra cheap, their reliability is below all their competitors. I do like them but they are in cases overrated.

The only test I know of against an EFR was against a 8374 on a Supra where the testing was biased massively towards the Precision the biggest thing I remember was the EFR was a twin scroll one put onto a car which was setup for the Precision T4 open turbo, ie open manifold. Despite it being well known that doing that will do bad things to both power and spool, the EFR out spooled the Precision and made respectable power however fell a bit short of the Precision... Not sure if it would have matched or bettered it but it was within spitting distance despite being choked, so really when peopll the declared the Precision as the moral winner for being a bit cheaper and performing ad good or better, I was impressed the EFR did so well when you know that on a proper twin entry manifold it would have been a different turbo....

A guy in Canada (quebec) just churned out 865whp with a precision turbo (6266 maybe? not sure) and rb32 (rips). All in (25psi) by 5000rpm. Twin stock GTR intank pumps too. Pretty cool but I wanna see more pics of his girlfriend... Tough to beat that response I'd guess but it's a bigger engine (frankenswapped now). Sadly, he believe's his tuner is a god so the one true big guy up there might strike havoc now lol

Edit: No I don't have a faster or better GTR, I have 2 kids and a 4000sq ft house instead.

Edited September 14, 2013 by NismoSTune

[Lithium]

There is a Precision thread if you want to post more details in there. Sounds ok for a cheaper turbo, however there is a BW EFR8374 internal wastegate result of over 600whp on pump gas and low boost ( 20psi) on an RB30 making full boost before 3500rpm. Would love to see an EFR9180 on an RB32, should happily deliver that power with better spool though - only RB I know of with one is Full race who make 762hp with full boost at 5000

[Lithium]

Rpm on a stock stroke RB26... Not bad spool for a 1000hp capable turbo

[Ryan1200]

The problem everyone had with that testing was it didn't have a proper divided wastegate setup ie twin gates or internal divider all the way to a single gate. If the testing wasnt fudged to make the precision look better the borgwarner on paper should've had a advantage over a t4 open setup.

[SimonR32]

Saw a photo on facebook last night of a RB30 with a EFR8374 that is aiming to be running in the next few weeks.

Shall be interesting

On the Precision turbos, they are a shit load cheaper... I paid $1600ish delivered for my turbo which is close enough to $1000 cheaper than the EFR or HTA equivalent. No reliability issues so far either. In saying all that they are not the be all and end all, not the only choice, but usually a good one

[Lithium]

On the Precision turbos, they are a shit load cheaper... I paid $1600ish delivered for my turbo which is close enough to $1000 cheaper than the EFR or HTA equivalent. No reliability issues so far either. In saying all that they are not the be all and end all, not the only choice, but usually a good one

Yeah they aren't bad, I do like them and the 6466 is probably the turbo of their range i do feel is stand out... But they don't have an untainted reputation either.

Wow, the EFRs were priced competitively for a while but just had a look and you are quite right, pretty expensive again now. FP have started getting a bit more competitive with their pricing and are also bringing out new beasts and directly targeting Precision as it seems Precision have been getting a lot of love for stuff they do well, but not necessarily as well (or at least better) than FP's. FP have put together a table to address this haha

Anyway probably too much non EFR talk unless someone has a comparison between and EFR and something else due to be added?

[NismoSTune]

Actually I believe the EFR are indeed priced competitively considering they come with: boost controller, wastegate (if internal) and blow off valve which none are included in the cost of other turbos. Really, if these are all that great, Why wouldn't someone pay more for something better? Then again, in most cases you need custom manifolds, dumps and hoses so the overall cost of install is much higher... Probably the reason the twin EFR route is so rare, darn expensive for a setup that will be laggier, less top end, More complex piping, more weight than a single.

[cobrAA]

Hey Gents... Here is the dyno graph on the twin 6258's we are working on that John mentioned. We had to cut the dyno session short after the 28psi pull because we heard a noise coming from the CAS area and decided to investigate before another run. It's on an RB26, 280º HKS Cams and port work (standard sized valves), E85. (76% Ethanol content)

4th gear ? psi chart ? look great!

[TheKeeper]

4th gear ? psi chart ? look great!

That is a 4th gear pull and the vacuum line was not connected to the dyno as it was being monitored on the laptop. Full boost on the lower boost (21psi) run was 4,500 and 5,200RPM on the high boost (28psi) run.

Just to clear some things up about the current twin kit. It will fit the R32 thru R34 chassis as long as the R34 power steering pump is fitted. It works with most aftermarket downpipes when you purchase the Full Race O2 housings. The "Y Pipe" for the hot side of the intercooler can now be purchased from Full Race as well. If there is enough of a demand the intake tubes will be made as well for a turn key kit. Trying not to "sell" here, just pointing out the facts that seem to be misrepresented quite often.

One big advantage that hasn't been mentioned is the lack of "shuffle" with this kit. We have tested a few of these kits, there have been several installed as well and each person seems to be having the same results. Maybe Bri73y can attest to that, we haven't spoken about it, but my guess is he's finding similar results. It's hard to quantify on the dyno what this kit does under the curve on the road and track. They simply work.

[NismoSTune]

5000 rpm for 28psi? I wonder why the boost response is higher in the rpm band compared to some of the single EFRs showing in the 3-4000rpm (rated at the same or higher power levels) such as the 8374

John Bright's gtr is unreal!!

[Lithium]

5000 rpm for 28psi? I wonder why the boost response is higher in the rpm band compared to some of the single EFRs showing in the 3-4000rpm (rated at the same or higher power levels) such as the 8374

John Bright's gtr is unreal!!

I already compared the EFR8374 and twin 6258s earlier in this thread - saying the EFR6258s would be laggier, there is no surprise that a pair of 44lb/min turbos may be laggier than a single 79lb/min turbo. You seem to be locked on the twins not flowing much up high, but two EFR6258s is serious business in terms of flow... you have here a turbo kit capable of making power near what the 3.2 you mentioned earlier and is making full boost on a 2.6 by the same kind of rpm as the Precision single on that 3.2.

The single EFRs were on 3litres - 2.6 litres versus 3 litres and even 3.2 litres are quite big differences in displacement when it comes to comparing driving a turbo, where the effects of displacement is compounding as boost comes into it

[Full-Race Geoff]

Here is the dyno graph on the twin 6258's we are working on that John mentioned. We had to cut the dyno session short after the 28psi pull because we heard a noise coming from the CAS area and decided to investigate before another run. It's on an RB26, 280º HKS Cams and port work (standard sized valves), E85. (76% Ethanol content)

stock stroke RB26, 88lb/min compressor, 200tq @ 3000rpm, 300tq @ 4000rpm #notbad

I went form STD to gt-ss, maxed them out and went with -5s last year ( i can tolerate the extra lag for the extra power but wouldn't really want to go any laggier) So I'm more interesting in the 2x 6258 vs 1x 8376 the 7670 is just too close to the -5.

And it appears the twin 6758 would be too laggy on a rb26 but well suited on a 2.8 or 3.0

one thing that doesn't get enough mention is the annoying "shuffle" thats always present due to surge at low rpms on the small twin garrett RB26's... its completely absent with the twin EFR's

I alays been a die-hard fan of twin application because.. well,, thats how the rb26 came out of factory.. but the more i think, it appears things have changed and single can be as responsive as the twin but cost less and easier to deal with if something is wrong.

Im a diehard single turbo guy, my RB26 runs a twinscroll EFR because its so simple/easy/fast to service and work on the setup... BUT there is something to be said for the very low inertia on the twins.. that 6258 combination really works great and with the integrated BOV and IWG it is deceptively tame, doesnt feel like an 88lb/min setup whatsoever

A single EFR7670 would however be more responsive and make more power than -9s

I agree the EFR7670 would be crazy responsive on the RB26. However keep in mind if you really turn up the boost or go to a larger dispalcement bottom end .. that 7670 compressor map could run out of headroom, whereas the increased airflow rates found on the 8374 or twin 6258 compressors would really keep it in the peak efficiency range

I thought the EFR6255 never ended up being a thing?

correct - the EFR 6258 spooled the same and made more power, so the 6255 never saw the light of day

I think he was on the waiting list for an 8374 for over a year but because 95% of GTRs running EFRs are using that exact turbo

Full-Race has the 8374's in stock now as well as the 6258s... i cant fix the past but there is no wait at this time

There's a guy in Canada who is running twin 6258 EFRs on a tomei 2.8L (first twin EFR in Canada) but can't find any dyno charts... Word is the kit, including oil/coolant hoses and intake pipes, cost around $8k USD. That had better kick some farken arse for more than 3x the cost of twin -5s

the twin kit requires (2) turbos, (2) downpipes, (2) charge pipes (2) manifolds, (2) sets of oil lines... not a bolt-on stock cast manifolds affair like the gt turbos you are comparing against

The Precisions are proven to perform really well but their prices aren't ultra cheap, their reliability is below all their competitors.

the evoX crowd is having problems with cracking the cast-iron precision turbine housings. The reason is because their turbine housing are cast iron... In a high load/high temp application it is crucial to use a suitable material especially if the car will be tracked. Hi-Sil Moly or 'HSM' and 'ni-resist' are still ductile iron castings but the addition of silicon in the alloy goes to the surface of the casting and helps prevent rust, while the Molybdenum increases stability and helps prevent cracking at higher temperature. I’m always amazed how much the addition of these materials improves strength at high temp, and resists long term cracking. For reference, it is still possible to crack HSM or ni-resist: we recently got a report of a cracked housing on two 88mm S500SX HSM turbine housings after three tractor pull events. These guys are running two 88mm S500SX’s; at 68psi (4.6 bar boost)…and 1100°C (2012°F!!!!). stainless steel would definitely be the right call for them

Hasn't precision turbos (proven over and over) been the best choice turbo for cost/power? I often read how they are simply awesome turbos and cost much less than EFRs while being very close in response/top end.

generally those type of claims come from people who sell precision turbos

Here's a fun little clip (if anyone is familiar with the old High Octane DVDs the sensor of humour and style will be familiar - this is a little tongue in cheek) with an EFR7670 showing it's worth on an E85 fuelled EJ STi WRX: ("700hp" is actually ~450kw @ 4 hubs):

I also enjoyed that video, well done and a lot of fun. looking forward to see more from him in the future

Edited September 16, 2013 by Full-Race Geoff

[Lithium]

agree the EFR7670 would be crazy responsive on the RB26. However keep in mind if you really turn up the boost or go to a larger dispalcement bottom end .. that 7670 compressor map could run out of headroom, whereas the increased airflow rates found on the 8374 or twin 6258 compressors would really keep it in the peak efficiency range

Of course - I agree, however it will not happen as badly as with the -9s which it is being compared with, and are very popular

generally those type of claims come from people who sell precision turbos

[bri73y]

Yep, absolutely no shuffle, not anywhere.

I've had -5's and -10's. Both shuffled at some point, sometimes under load, sometimes when you least expect it.

It was very annoying and led to a slow car, regardless of the KW they were supposed to be delivering.

The EFR's do "simply work". I've never experienced shuffle with them, even when I dabbled with twin 7163's there was no shuffle.

As twins go, I don't know of any other alternative that gives the same result as the 6258's. I still remember the very first time I drove with them on, WTAC 2011. I headed out from pit lane and lit all four wheels up on pit exit, had it sideways before I even made the track. I was just not prepared for the instant power these things delivered. I was smiling and shitting myself all the way to turn 2!

I went to hell and back with these a few years ago, but right now, today, very happy I endured the pain as my car just hammers!! The EFR's are an awesome bit of kit.

Remember........dynos only ever tell half the story, the other half just has to be experienced.

[Lithium]

Awesome to hear, can't wait to see that thing in the flesh next month

[TheKeeper]

Yep, absolutely no shuffle, not anywhere.

I went to hell and back with these a few years ago, but right now, today, very happy I endured the pain as my car just hammers!! The EFR's are an awesome bit of kit.

Remember........dynos only ever tell half the story, the other half just has to be experienced.

Yup. It's a set up that has to be driven to be appreciated.

Hell and back? I vaguely remember that. Wink wink.

[black bnr32]

that's a pretty damn good result. one comment: it looks like Gav's gtx set up might make better average power. not apples to apples given the displacement, but interesting none the less.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/topic/384897-new-garrett-gtx2860r-2863r-2867r/page-7

Edited September 17, 2013 by black bnr32

[NismoSTune]

John, you're setup is an inspiration!! Rooting for you next month sir!

And good luck, I heard somewhere that team Nemo has rolled out some low 1:20s... Might even seem team america (ark design) if they ever update their status!!

[SS8_Gohan]

so just to clarify, would these 6258's be classified as bigger than say HKS 2530's?

[Lithium]

Flow wise yes, lag wise no