[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[NismoSTune]

Not bad numbers (at engine...?)!

I've been living under a rock, I thought XS engineering closed doors years ago lol silly me

[Full-Race Geoff]

correct - XS Engineering shut down many years ago. However, Blackmarket Racing aka 'BMR' is located directly behind Full-Race... and they bought the dynamic testing dyno from XS. BMR had wanted to get it from XS for many years becuase it has some special features (such as extremely accurate measurement of drivetrain losses) however when we dynoed the evo i accidentally brought up the old template with the xs logo.

edit: i know the chart says "engine" on the screen but I assure you this is whp. the point i was trying to make was that a turbo thats larger than gt35R is spooling like a gt30R... and making more than 35R power

Edited October 1, 2013 by Full-Race Geoff

[NismoSTune]

Ah gotcha. That's very impressive!

As for cobraa's comment:

"My other comment would be great if you could make a complete kit instead of a kit that need more modification and fabrication"

That would be cool indeed but then the already "expensive kit" could go up another $500-1500 (depending if you meant intake pipes, filters and hoses/fittings)

And as full race has already said at some point, there are already plenty of good downpipea and what not out there so they focused on the required parts that weren't available, or something like that

[Full-Race Geoff]

I got lazy right at the end and didn't mix up fuel with ethanol and got it tuned on 98RON despite having 9.5:1 compression ratio. It couldn't really take any decent timing numbers at all. Still makes full boost at around 3200 and makes 258rwkw. Dyno printout is at home so will upload a pic tonight. Printout is in km/h rather than rpm at the moment so just trying to decypher it at the moment. I reallyneed to put a softer wastegate spring in it and lower the boost a bit to get a bit more timing into it imo.

hey brad - did you post this dyno chart in the thread? I just looked for it but could not find it. Would love to see the torque curve, with full boost at 3200

[bradsm87]

The dyno run with a fairly quick ramp rate did not represent the on-road boost threshold. It showed full boost at around 3800 on the dyno.

I'm now running my E30 mix and have added 2psi of boost across the board and around 6 degrees more timing in most of the full load cells with no sign of knock. I didn't push it any further but I plan to get it in to the tuner in a month or so see if has any more headroom and get a good dyno printout with RPM and at a slow ramp rate.

[Lithium]

Been waiting for this kind of thing to start filtering through - a twin scroll EFR9180 on a 2.2litre EVO X:

Mods:

2008 Evo X GSR

Fuel: 93 Octane + Meth

Mods: Moore Automotive Built 2.2L (Manley 94mm Stroker Kit with Turbo Tuff Rods and ACL Bearings)

AMS TMP Cams

Kelford Valve Springs

Ferrea Intake Valves

SuperTech Inconel Exhaust Valves

Cosworth 1.3mm HeadGasket

ARP 625+ Head Studs

JDL built T4 Twin-Scroll Turbo Manifold

Borg Warner EFR9180 (T4 TS) Turbo

Tial MV-S Wastegates (open dump)

Moore Automotive Custom 3.5" Turbo-back Exhaust and Dump Tubes

Moore Automotive 3.5" Intake, 2.5" UICP, 2.75" LICP

ETS 4" Intercooler

ID1300 Injectors

Walbro 400 Fuel Pump

Moore Automotive modified Fuel Pump Housing with -6AN outlet

-6AN Fuel Feed Line

AMS Fuel Rail

MAP FPR Kit with FuelLab Regulator

Snow Performance Direct Port Meth Injection Kit

Exedy Triple Disc Clutch

Jack's Built Transmission

STOCK Sleeves, Head, Intake Manifold, and Throttle Body

Apparently was running out of fuel system - he reckons he needs to (and may?) upgrade the fuel system to get more out of it, definitely didn't reach the limit of the flow of the 9180. 25psi by just after 25psi for a 94lb/min turbo on a 2.2litre is offensively good. Its just dirty... basically this is better than PT6466 spool and better than PT6766 flow, for those who are obsessed with Precision turbos.

[sleptema]

Guessing there is supporsed to be a rpm number here.

Apparently was running out of fuel system - he reckons he needs to (and may?) upgrade the fuel system to get more out of it, definitely didn't reach the limit of the flow of the 9180. 25psi by just after 25psi for a 94lb/min turbo on a 2.2litre is offensively good. Its just dirty... basically this is better than PT6466 spool and better than PT6766 flow, for those who are obsessed with Precision turbos.

[Lithium]

4000rpm, oops. Not sure if I can blame autocorrect on that

[Full-Race Geoff]

yea lith - this EvoX is the daily driver for the owner of MooreTuning. He started with EFR7670 1.05 a/r and then switched to the EFR9180 1.05 a/r. Really nice guys, I met them in the BorgWarner booth at PRI and spoken a few times over the last 4 years. Typically they sell a lot of precision and FP turbos so he was interested in the EFR but like everyone else was a little skeptical. now he has a decent opinion on them, keeps calling it magical

[cobrAA]

yea lith - this EvoX is the daily driver for the owner of MooreTuning. He started with EFR7670 1.05 a/r and then switched to the EFR9180 1.05 a/r. Really nice guys, I met them in the BorgWarner booth at PRI and spoken a few times over the last 4 years. Typically they sell a lot of precision and FP turbos so he was interested in the EFR but like everyone else was a little skeptical. now he has a decent opinion on them, keeps calling it magical

I like !

So can I/we expect the result on this 7670 to be better since we have 2.6 instead of 2.2. I know nothing about evos and don't know if they can compare, somehow, to rbs.

[Lithium]

EVOs tend to drive turbos better cc for cc.... unfortunately

[GTScotT]

EVOs tend to drive turbos better cc for cc.... unfortunately

You can't beat a square engine

Hence why I would love to see a well equipped NEO dirty 30. I may just have to build one

[discopotato03]

Also the 4B11T is a more modern engine than a 4G63T or an RB six . More modern head designs inc chamber and port cooling and variable cam timing both sides .

Brad I'd like to hear more about your E30 experiences maybe in one of the ethanol/E85 threads .

Cheers A .

[discopotato03]

You can't beat a square engine

Hence why I would love to see a well equipped NEO dirty 30. I may just have to build one

Yes I like that idea too though engines like BDAs and FJ20s were a bit more than square . If Nissan really intended the RB30 to be a true high performance engine it could have used the bore and stroke of the VG30 which I think is 87 x 83 . Sadly V6s package better than straight ones so RBs died a quick death . BMW kept them alive for a time but eventually went to the dark side with a V8 I believe in M3s .

A .

[Lithium]

If Nissan really intended the RB30 to be a true high performance engine it could have used the bore and stroke of the VG30 which I think is 87 x 83

How do you figure this? Many of the best performance engines are square, or very close to it. Check out SR20DET, K20A, 2JZGTE, 4G63 etc... I would take any of those over any of the options on the other list

[WMDC35]

You can't beat a square engine

Hence why I would love to see a well equipped NEO dirty 30. I may just have to build one

I've got a neo 30 on a slow build, which I'll probably go with the EFR 8374, won't be ready till next year though

[Full-Race Geoff]

So can I/we expect the result on this 7670 to be better since we have 2.6 instead of 2.2. I know nothing about evos and don't know if they can compare, somehow, to rbs.

a larger displacement engine will usually spool faster. the 7670 is a great turbo, but a bit small for an RB26 if you plan to build it. The 8374 is a better match in my opinion. We have an rb25 pro drift competitor who runs the 7670 (because he wanted a bit quicker response for his small local track) but i expect he will have an 8374 on there soon for the big tracks:

Hence why I would love to see a well equipped NEO dirty 30. I may just have to build one

what is a NEO dirty 30?

BMW kept them alive for a time but eventually went to the dark side with a V8 I believe in M3s .

A .

adrian normally i agree with you, but you must be drinking tonite. BMW produces far more turbocharged Inline motors than V motors...

Edited October 3, 2013 by Full-Race Geoff

[SimonR32]

Someone over here in WA just finished their RB30 with EFR8374...

Apparently went 470-480rwhp on a dyno dynamics on at 1.5bar on pump 98. Full boost at 3500rpm

[GTScotT]

what is a NEO dirty 30?

An RB30DET sporting an R34 RB25DET NEO cylinder head.

You get improved combusion chamber and port design, along with VCT and solid lifters.

A pair of drop in cams will make for a formidable budget alternative to a high performance head.

[discopotato03]

How do you figure this? Many of the best performance engines are square, or very close to it. Check out SR20DET, K20A, 2JZGTE, 4G63 etc... I would take any of those over any of the options on the other list

How do you figure this? Many of the best performance engines are square, or very close to it. Check out SR20DET, K20A, 2JZGTE, 4G63 etc... I would take any of those over any of the options on the other list

Well Lith I guess it depends on your definition of best performance engines . Generally the highest horsepower comes at revs and under square engines often are not top end screamers .

The greatest limitation power wise for a square or under square engine is the lack of valve , mainly inlet , valve area . There comes a time when the cylinder bores limit valve size you can physically fit in the chambers . You mention SR20s and they are an interesting case in point . These were developed to be an east west as well as a north south engine so packaging compromises in east west form limited the blocks length as well as the bore centres . It was not really intended to be a competition engine even though Nissan had half a go with the Pulsar GTiR version , which ended up being an epic failure as a competition car - won jack shit . The only serious engine was the Super Tourer Primera one and it was so far removed from a production SR20 as to be unrecognisable . They basically had the 89 x 80 bore stroke of the FJ20 as well as turning the head around and then driving the cams from the opposite end . The block and head castings may have started out as SR20 but in the end there was SFA Nissan about it .

I'm not so sure Toyota went road racing with the 2JZGTE and even if you could stop the Supras body flex the manifolds are RS on 2Js .

The reason I mentioned the old Cosworth BDA was because it used a big bore compared to stroke bottom end and the head worked very well in its day . A real race twin cam head is quite tall because the included angle between the inlet and exhaust valves is narrow to keep the valves out of the pistons and also to house steeply downdraught inlet ports . A tall head needs a not too tall block to fit in a production car and that works out best with a big bore and a short stroke otherwise the complete engine gets too tall . Same story with Nissans Formula Pacific based LZ twin cam engines in the "L14" blocks . These were actually L18 blocks with short stroke cranks in them and hanging 10000 revs off them was nothing .

Off the top of my head there is no square RBs though 30s from memory are closest at 86 x 85 - from memory . They get a leg up from having quite long rods too .

Now to a theoretical RB30 based on VG30 dimensions . Larger bore could have supported larger valves and depending on rod length the block may not have needed to be as tall as an RB30 so a little easier to package in twin cam form . We'll never know .

The one non standard RB variant , RB24 , really shows the shortcomings of lack of bore diameter . Compared to an RB25 a 24 lacks valve and port area and there's SFA you can do about it . Compare the bores and strokes though neither is square .

4G63s are an old design now and in competition use (FIA Group A) they never busted 5500 revs with turbo restrictors on them . You can probably argue that a slightly undersquare engine may make slightly better torque (low to mid range) when it is rev limited - doesn't rev high enough for valve area to be a problem . Also rod and piston inertia not a real biggie provided they can withstand the high boost almost diesel like characteristics .

Sorry Geoff must have been thinking of the NA I6s .

Edited October 3, 2013 by discopotato03