[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[GTScotT]

The larger ones do appear to be more expensive, but if you have a motor capable of 8374 potential I would say $1,000 is a small sum of money.

Like you said bang for buck might not be there if you are not truly competitive with the car.

[Full-Race Geoff]

I'm with you. T3 single scroll EW, in a size that my SR20 can spool. You'd have an instant customer.

We can do the EFR7670 and EFR8374 with T3 EWG housing. We've found that on a 2L engine the singlescroll T3 7670 EWG can hit 1bar around 3600rpm, compared to a GTX3071R singlescroll T3 which sees 1 bar around 4400rpm

I'm affraid the explanation is fairly simple. My existing exhaust manifold is made for EWG, deliberately, because I think its neater and provides better boost control. All I'm saying is that I'd readily upgrade if the option of a bolt on affair were available

7670 T3 EWG:

8374 T3 EWG:

I'm a follower of the IWG but do you really need the EWG to kick some ass... They have many different models but people always seem to want what isn't produced. Can't win. I'm sure you wouldn't be disappointed with the IWG, even if you're a hater, you'd be surprised. Less piping too.

you're correct - everyone asks for stuff that isnt produced (welcome to the world of aftermarket performance LOL). we do the best we can to bring top shelf turbos and innovative housing/manifold combinations to the market. I believe IWG and twinscroll are 2 features not to be overlooked, but for guys who are unwilling want to change their manifold or setup its a non starter. Of course they can run their setup 'as-is' with a T3-EWG housing and upgrade to a twinscroll turbine housing + manifold later on

Well i understand then. If you're luck you won't need a custom manifold (or EFR specific one)

correct - the T3 ewg EFR's will still work on most existing setups intended for GT or otherwise:

We don't need to pay $2,200 for a turbo and $420 to ship it.

that ridiculous, unless its being shipped to some strange corner of the globe. We sell a lot of bw turbos to Aus/NZ, nobody would ever pay 420 to ship a single turbocharger. we're not a huge company, we dont sell thousands of items on ebay but we charge the same that Fedex charges us. we recently shipped a couple manifolds and turbos to Nemo-Racing.com and that was up there. shipping is not cheap these days

is the efr 7064 good for 560hp "At the wheels" or at the flywheel???

im talking t4 twin scroll with 1.05 A/r and dual wastegates

EFR 7064 runs out of breath around 480-500whp depending on what engine it's attached to. It's compressor is a bit too small for a 560hp target.

EFR7670 is the clear choice for the 550+whp range (I dont think of it as a 600+whp turbo)

Money no object its a fantastic turbo, but bang for buck it's doesn't deliver $1000-1500 worth more performance over say a GTX35 or a PT6262 BB

i disagree. With a twinscroll EFR and 0.92 a/r you get some serious bang for the buck and wont have to buy the following items:

(2) wastegates (600-700$)

(2) dumptubes/clamps/flanges/vbands (250-400$)

BOV (250-280$)

BCSV (50$)

[NismoSTune]

I agree with Geoff on all those points.

The only big drawback when comparing to another turbo is if you have no choice but to buy the EFR specific manifold ( should it not fit your normal boat anchor one).

But hey, it's Engineered For Racing. Not

Engineered for Cheap budget Build and Cool dyno Numbers ask ANY person with an EFR(s) what they think after coming from Honeywell, FP, precision and other turbos, you will most likely find no complaints other than past delays when ordering and steep initial cost

[Tom Tucker]

We can do the EFR7670 and EFR8374 with T3 EWG housing. We've found that on a 2L engine the singlescroll T3 7670 EWG can hit 1bar around 3600rpm, compared to a GTX3071R singlescroll T3 which sees 1 bar around 4400rpm

7670 T3 EWG:

8374 T3 EWG:

you're correct - everyone asks for stuff that isnt produced (welcome to the world of aftermarket performance LOL). we do the best we can to bring top shelf turbos and innovative housing/manifold combinations to the market. I believe IWG and twinscroll are 2 features not to be overlooked, but for guys who are unwilling want to change their manifold or setup its a non starter. Of course they can run their setup 'as-is' with a T3-EWG housing and upgrade to a twinscroll turbine housing + manifold later on

correct - the T3 ewg EFR's will still work on most existing setups intended for GT or otherwise:

that ridiculous, unless its being shipped to some strange corner of the globe. We sell a lot of bw turbos to Aus/NZ, nobody would ever pay 420 to ship a single turbocharger. we're not a huge company, we dont sell thousands of items on ebay but we charge the same that Fedex charges us. we recently shipped a couple manifolds and turbos to Nemo-Racing.com and that was up there. shipping is not cheap these days

EFR 7064 runs out of breath around 480-500whp depending on what engine it's attached to. It's compressor is a bit too small for a 560hp target.

EFR7670 is the clear choice for the 550+whp range (I dont think of it as a 600+whp turbo)

i disagree. With a twinscroll EFR and 0.92 a/r you get some serious bang for the buck and wont have to buy the following items:

(2) wastegates (600-700$)

(2) dumptubes/clamps/flanges/vbands (250-400$)

BOV (250-280$)

BCSV (50$)

Thanks for the suggestion. However, like GtScotT, I really like the look of the 7170. Also, my .63 gtx3071 hit 20psi @ 4200, with a giant intercooler pipe leak.

[NismoSTune]

Thanks for the suggestion. However, like GtScotT, I really like the look of the 7170. Also, my .63 gtx3071 hit 20psi @ 4200, with a giant intercooler pipe leak.

I'm curious... If your said setup worked so well, why look for a non ready setup that will cost more anyway. If it ain't bad, why replace it?

Heck, I'd even fix you "giant" intercooler leak and see if you get full boost by 3500 and more peak power. Upgrading a setup because you want more, when you have problems with other parts, isn't going to solve your lack of

As for liking the "look" of the 7170, that's cool but that's based on your understanding of its potential (which LIKE MINE boils down to an internet derived opinion) where the info that Goeff gave you is based on years of R&D, actual usage and educated opinion/knowledge. That and the turbos he mentioned are ready now and are already proven and in living proof somewhere out there, unlike the 7170 or w/e it is.

Just trying to help out, not roast anyone

Edited October 17, 2013 by NismoSTune

[Tom Tucker]

I'm curious... If your said setup worked so well, why look for a non ready setup that will cost more anyway. If it ain't bad, why replace it?

Heck, I'd even fix you "giant" intercooler leak and see if you get full boost by 3500 and more peak power. Upgrading a setup because you want more, when you have problems with other parts, isn't going to solve your lack of

As for liking the "look" of the 7170, that's cool but that's based on your understanding of its potential (which LIKE MINE boils down to an internet derived opinion) where the info that Goeff gave you is based on years of R&D, actual usage and educated opinion/knowledge. That and the turbos he mentioned are ready now and are already proven and in living proof somewhere out there, unlike the 7170 or w/e it is.

Just trying to help out, not roast anyone

I'm fixing it now, but I think the best im ever likely to achieve is desired boost by 4000rpm. Don't get me wrong, I like my current setup, but my car is currently apart getting various work done to it and I'm in a position where I could easily change turbo now if I wanted to, or if an opportunity arose. You're probably right that the changeover cost may not be worth it, but equally likely is potential performace from the 7170 that a gtx3071 would dream of, if it wasnt in fact an unanimate object.

You don't work for Full Race do you?

[NismoSTune]

Alas no I don't work for full race, I'm just a guy who Got tired of the "run of the mill" Turbos (my new honeywell -5 turbos after 1200 kms had enough shaft play to justify rebuilds, wasnt even through break in) and decided to really research into these turbos. I've talked to full race lots, along with some happy customers and found few negatives.

Honestly, a turbo like Honeywell or precision is proven and still capable of impressive results but for those than want to step up (while not holding back too hard on the wallet) have the options of things like the EFR. They aren't light years ahead of the competition but id guess they are edging most of many points... That's all.

The dual boost turbo from Honeywell will be cool should it ever come out but if they want to make an impact on the market, they need to prepare and plan their release better than the last mega release and really seek out and show live proof of their product.

After 3 years or so of the EFR, there are still a limited numbers of users out there that haven't shown much other than a handful of videos and dyno graphs (which mean nothing for this turbo when compared to another) so it's tough to make a clear judgment.

This weekend will be a big deal for EFR IMO as there are lots of competitors with them in the WTAC. It's unfortunate the ark design gtr flopped but they weren't going to keep up with the nemo... As much as I love GTRs, that Evo is stupid fast and it now has an EFR.

[GTScotT]

Guys its called a 7163 lol.

And don't call my stuff a boat anchor, my wants and plans for my car is no reason to be offensive.

[scotty nm35]

The dual boost turbo from Honeywell will be cool should it ever come out but if they want to make an impact on the market, they need to prepare and plan their release way better than the last Borg Warner release.

FYP.

I agree they are impressive turbo's with the numbers to back them up, but the internal gate version is too long to fit into half the cars I work on. The external gate versions are looking better each day.

[discopotato03]

Interesting hearing about peoples justifications .

Anyway , I'm sure Geoff will correct me if I'm wrong but the advantage of these EFRs is obviously the light weight turbines and the integral waste gate turbine housings . I don't know if BWs competition is able to mimic these turbines and long/bulky turbine housings is not what manufacturers often want in OE apps .

Obviously Garretts aim is to make OE units because that's where volume sales and economic survival is . It would be in their interests to have lighter turbines because manufacturers want "instant response" from todays lean burn small capacity mower engines esp diseasels .

It looks to me like we can't have every form of turbine housing because some probably don't work out so well overall . I think people would buy B1 sized turbos with T3 flanged housings though B1s seem to be aimed at the T25 flanged four cylinder market . Not so good if you have an early Nissan turbo four or an RB six cylinder with a T3 (slightly wider T3 Euro actually) flanged exhaust manifold .

A lot goes on in the turbine housings inlet and getting an integral waste gate to function at high gas flow rates isn't easy . I think this is why the housing options are T25 open IW or T4 twin IW , and lastly T3 open IW . The missing T3 twin IW is very probably because it's difficult/impossible to merge the primary manifold pipes together and make workable gate vent passages downstream of the housings mounting flange . From pictures I've seen the modest sized T4 twin scroll housings don't look to have huge passages internally but they need the area through and inside the twin T4 flange to merge the gasses and make them exit easily through the vent passages when the gates open .

The offset turbine housing outlet isn't new and Garrett etc did it on things like Sierra Cosworth YBB/YBD engines and I remember a Euro car ie Volvo doing it too . What BWs done is make it flow better and add twin scroll to the mix . And they're stainless meaning much easier for fabricators to weld to than say Garretts housings . Nothing to stop BW making housings and having flanges to weld to them as the market demands .

Geoff I can't remember if I asked before so will there be an open T3 IW housing for the 7163 when it's available ? If the .83 one was suitable I gather it would blow the doors off a GT3076R in 0.82 form ...

A .

[GTScotT]

We can do the EFR7670 and EFR8374 with T3 EWG housing. We've found that on a 2L engine the singlescroll T3 7670 EWG can hit 1bar around 3600rpm, compared to a GTX3071R singlescroll T3 which sees 1 bar around 4400rpm

Geoff is that an EFR specific housing? It looks like one of those stainless ebay housings for a GT30, milled to fit the EFR.

If that is a specific housing that can be ordered? Or a custom made?

It looks like one of these:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Stainless-Steel-Turbo-T3-Flange-Turbine-Housing-V-clamp-82-AR-for-HKS-GT3037-/151144520079?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2330ea598f&_uhb=1

Interesting hearing about peoples justifications...

The missing T3 twin IW is very probably because...

Geoff I can't remember if I asked before so will there be an open T3 IW housing for the 7163 when it's available ? If the .83 one was suitable I gather it would blow the doors off a GT3076R in 0.82 form ...

Interesting to see that you still fancy yourself a Jedi, or at least some form of turbo dev whisperer.

Chiming in to talk about a T3 TS IWG housing, most likely waving your hand as you type. Suddenly the peering eyes of turbo dev engineers will mindlessly repeat "the missing T3 twin IW" and they will make a Skyline specific housing, just for you. Because so many other popular performance cars come with a (partially) divided T3 flange......... Or perhaps you see yourself a trend setter, who can bring the automotive industry forward and then spur other manufacturers to produce T3 divided based turbo systems on their new gen cars.

All funny when you don't take the time to read the last 2 pages, and ask the same question which has spurred your comments on peoples 'justifications'. Or perhaps you meant to contribute a hand wave, as our non-Jedi attempts would probably be getting us nowhere.

[Roy]

Interesting to see that you still fancy yourself a Jedi, or at least some form of turbo dev whisperer.

LOL...leave the sniper posts out of what is a decent enough discussion over turbos. Plus discop mentioned a YBB Cosworth engine in his post so one of the best posts ever on SAU!

I am only after a punchy 260+rwkws from my Cossie. The thing is low compression so happy to run up to 26psi. I just have to get my head around running a turbo with wheels the sizes of the EFR 7064 and 7670 and still be able to get good reponse and torque as the engine only pulls 7,000rpm. I think I would be happy with 6758 but sounds like the twin scroll T4 7163 will be the go. What hot side options are there with regards to IWG and A/R for the T4?

Geoff...will these end up on your site or should I just drop you some mail in a few weeks?

[GTScotT]

I'm just calling it how it is, and have been around long enough for people to know I mean no harm.

If my comments make the man blush for a moment I will have achieved all that I intended

[BakemonoRicer]

Roy, someone with an SR20 is making full boost by 3300rpm with a 7064.

Scott, no need for T3 twin scroll imo.

From what I've seen a T4 Twin Scroll 1.05 A/R EWG will spool faster than T3 open scroll...and is better across the whole rev range.

I would be opting for that option if I go an EFR...

[GTScotT]

EFR 7064 runs out of breath around 480-500whp depending on what engine it's attached to. It's compressor is a bit too small for a 560hp target.

EFR7670 is the clear choice for the 550+whp range (I dont think of it as a 600+whp turbo)

Scott, no need for T3 twin scroll imo.

Can someone clarify if the potential of the EFR 7064 is 560hp at the wheels or at the flywheel?

It was not me dropping hints that a T3 TS is missing from the range.

And you were a little lazy with reading, as above.

[BakemonoRicer]

It was not me dropping hints that a T3 TS is missing from the range.

And you were a little lazy with reading, as above.

Yep, defs me being lazy reading lol!!

Completely missed that.

[Roy]

Roy, someone with an SR20 is making full boost by 3300rpm with a 7064.

Do you know what housing flange - A/R it is running? There is not a lot of space in the Sierra engine bay so prefer to run internal gate and smallest frame turbo...hence why the 7163 seems an option.

[Tom Tucker]

Guys its called a 7163 lol.

And don't call my stuff a boat anchor, my wants and plans for my car is no reason to be offensive.

Whoops, it was late haha

[GTScotT]

Do you know what housing flange - A/R it is running? There is not a lot of space in the Sierra engine bay so prefer to run internal gate and smallest frame turbo...hence why the 7163 seems an option.

I believe he is referring to Bradsm87

T4 TS .92 (IWG unused) with a single EWG.

[Skepticism]

I believe he is referring to Bradsm87

T4 TS .92 (IWG unused) with a single EWG.

Note that he's running liquid-to-air intercooler (so short+direct piping), 9:1 comp/built motor, and IIRC E30 blend. 3300rpm still ridiculous for 300kw.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Skepticism